[Shelved]The Clerics Of Tahariae

[Ventusyr 232]

My character lost an eye in Thales. She went to other clerics that she knew and instead of magically regrowing one out of nothing they did what made more sense. They found an intact eye that was out of someone else's head and simply attached it into Cheza's skull. I rp the eye as having slower reactions than her natural one due to healing being imperfect since we can't find out enough about eyes to make it perfect. 

 

This sort of healing should be fine but literally creating a brand new eye out of nothing? Something like that just is way too advanced. The eye is a rather complex part of the body.

 

Yeah sure you can't stop someone from 'going to the monks' but they wouldn't seek out clerics first if they didn't want to find that rp.

And as for the alchemy I was told that it takes a while for the potion to work, it's not instant. Plus it takes the liver of a mother that matches your race so... Not easy to get either. 

 

So you can't generate an eyeball out of thin air, I don't see the problem? There are other methods to healing the person.

 

Attaching a new eye makes less sense to me. I've heard of this method and had it suggested to me (my character lost his eye in Anthos), but that's essentially creating a Frankenstein-esque character using other body parts. Could I attach a used hand? A used arm? Clerical healing is using magic to revert the body back to how it was prior to the injury; the body did not have this new eye or limb, so how would that fit in with clerical magic?

 

I don't see the problem with clerics not being able to regenerate it. I'm an advocate of it being extremely difficult, taking multiple healers to make a properly working one, but rendering it impossible is silly considering we can do so much else that is far more complex than a very small piece of your body. Why should healing organs and regenerating ears and working noses and tongues be possible, but not regenerating an eye? Noses and tongues are arguably even MORE complex than an eye; as I said, scent can't be studied at all, and tastebuds are quite a large amount.

 

It doesn't matter how difficult it is to obtain the ingredients. There's nothing inherently magical about it, its just combining ingredients in a certain way, no? Why should that grow an eye, but not the healing power of an Aengul?

 

I concede the point on the monks.

[Delmodan 852]

There are no potions that can regrow limbs and mending flesh takes a long period of time that would even still leaves scars. However you might see it, it is much easier reattaching a limb or extremities than to just create something out of nothing. An eye is very complex, even for reattaching it and then theres the other issue of them even able to see from that eye or them still being blind. Magic as you say, shouldn't be so well defined, this is true, but you are suggesting something out of your field of magic possibilites. Reattaching I see, creating something fully I do not. 

[MetaSolaray 242]

I'd rather someone be able to make an eye out of nothing then just go "Screw it going to monks."

By taking this ability from clerics you delete RP that people who would be willing to go through actual healing RP might be. IF they didn't want to lose the eye they will do it one way or the other. The people who are willing to keep the injury will keep it, people who don't will just say "Monks did it." 

 

[Tsuyose 3283]

The quote was from Dandan1350, the upholder, and I believe the Magic Keeper of the Taharie Magic. Discuss it with he, not I. I was relaying information.

[Gone 868]

There are no potions that can regrow limbs

 

Yes there is, it's just difficult to make and takes a long time to work so you don't see it a whole lot. But it is indeed an option.

From an alchemy lore page.

 

 

Potion of Regeneration

A quite potent potion, it is part of the healing potions, but has a recipe on it’s own due to it’s complexity. It’s recipe is both dark, and it’s effects slow, but with amazing results. The potion is able to remove scarring, and most of all, regrow missing limbs. Taking months to fully regrow the limb, they would then have to be retrained, and strengthened.

[Ventusyr 232]

The quote was from Dandan1350, the upholder, and I believe the Magic Keeper of the Taharie Magic. Discuss it with he, not I. I was relaying information.

 

I'm not sure if you if you missed the introduction in the beginning of the post, but this is my lore. It deviates from Dandan's and Hosper's interpetations of the lore in many aspects, such as my proposal to have war clerics be able to connect war clerics provided they know the ritual (because the Itharel going inactive killed war cleric magic). So treat this lore as any other lore, without any previous established restrictions lorewise for the clerics (because this is actually the first published lore for the clerics), and this lore includes the ability for very experienced priest healers being able to heal eyes.

 

Also, there is no published, accepted magic that Dandan owns. Clerics were just given the go-ahead by LT, but this is the first concrete establishment of abilities that lacks ambiguities or inconsistencies and can be relied upon better than multiple people who all have different interpretations of clerical abilities.

 

Now, from my understanding, there are three concerns for priest healers being able to heal eyes: the complexity of eyes, the difficulty/impossibility of studying eyes properly with medieval tools, and how "magicing" into existence an eye is dumb. I'm going to go through these one by one and prove why they are illegitimate concerns.

 

1) Eyes are very complex. Regenerating them is impossible because clerics can't understand it fully.

As I said before, eyes are no more complex than other extremities, such as noses and tongues (which, arguably, are more complex). We are also somehow able to heal blindness, despite the eye being "too complex." Heck, even Xan paladins can heal blindness. If the eye is truly too complex, then remove anybody being able to heal blindness of any sort. Also remove healing of organs, because chemical processes are complex, and regeneration of/operation on extremities because they're too, if not more, complex.

 

2) Eyes are too complex for proper study with medieval tools.

This one is just a poor argument. Everything in the body can't be studied properly with medieval tools, but clerics are still able to heal them. Clerics, and really anybody in this server, should have no concept of nerves, biochemistry, molecules, and cells. So, really, the body can't be properly studied with tools to have effective healings with clerical magic. A part of it is the natural ability for the light to heal, the cleric just has to focus on what goal he is trying to accomplish when healing. The light takes care of the more complicated, cellular/molecular stuff. You can get enough knowledge on lenses in the eye through dissection and study of anatomy. You don't need to know how nerves hook up, you just need to understand how an eye is supposed to look and work and see.

 

3) "Magicing" away the problem is dumb and this spell isn't possible with cleric magic.

Well... Not sure how to address this one. Seems like an opinion on healing magic rather than clerical ability. Playable monks shouldn't be a thing if you truly believe this. It's definitely in the realm of clerical abilities, though, because A) there isn't much tissue to regenerate (no more than a curled-up finger, which we can already regenerate under Dandan interpretation of magic), and B) clerics can study eyes, as I just established. Also, it won't be "magicing the problem away". A cleric cannot do this spell alone until after a year of being a priest healer and with multiple years of constant study of eyes, and there will be prayer and lots of ritual things. Heck, we might even have to do multiple sessions to get the eye perfect. We're here to provide roleplay for the injured, we're not an NPC that you come to after your big boss battle and wave our hands and boom, healed. If there are clerics doing such, talk to me or them and offer suggestions for their RP.

 

If there are any inconsistencies with this rationale, let me know. But I really, really see no problem with clerics being able to heal eyes.

[Gone 868]

1) Eyes are very complex. Regenerating them is impossible because clerics can't understand it fully.

As I said before, eyes are no more complex than other extremities, such as noses and tongues (which, arguably, are more complex). We are also somehow able to heal blindness, despite the eye being "too complex." Heck, even Xan paladins can heal blindness. If the eye is truly too complex, then remove anybody being able to heal blindness of any sort. Also remove healing of organs, because chemical processes are complex, and regeneration of/operation on extremities because they're too, if not more, complex.

 

I honestly don't understand why you think the eye isn't complex. As someone who took a lot of biology and anatomy classes this just... No. The eye is honestly an amazing thing. Rods, cones, lenses, pupils, nerves... All of it is complex. I even just googled "is the eye complex" and got results such as: 

 

"our notoriously complex eye" 

 

"It is often argued that the eye is so complex that it could not have evolved naturally."

 

How is this amazing part of the body not complex? It's also so small...

I could honestly find a MORE detailed image if you still don't believe it.

 

As for the healing blindness, that can only be done if the damage occurred during their life. If someone was born blind then you cannot heal it away because that's how they naturally are. 

Say someone throws acid at my eyes, a cleric can heal that sort of blindness because it's simply restoring the eye to it's natural state which is much more simple than growing an entire new one out of thin air. 

 

I'm sorry because this is probably going to sound rude but, stop throwing a fit just because someone said you cannot create a complex organ out of nothing. Clerics were never able to do that and whoever taught you otherwise did wrong.

[Ventusyr 232]

- Snipe -

 

I didn't say the eye wasn't complex. I said other extremities were as complex as eyes, if not moreso, such as noses and ears ("eyes are no more complex than other extremities, such as noses and tongues (which, arguably, are more complex"). I definitely understand that eyes are very complex, but we're able to restore deafness when an ear is like this:

 

 

When we're able to heal noses when they have millions of molecule receptors for scent?

When we're able to heal fingers, despite, again, having no knowledge of nerves?

I dunno, seems a little weird that eyes would be singled out here. The body is a wonderfully complex thing, all of it is, and eyes are only one of several incredibly complex things clerics are already allowed to heal.

 

I definitely understand that aspect of healing eyes, hence why I said it would only be able to be done within the Elven week of the injury, but you cannot argue that regenerating part of an eye that got burned away from acid is simple, but regenerating the entire eye is too complex for clerics. It is still restoring the eye to its natural state, except you have to go off of the base of the eye socket rather than whatever is left of the eye.

 

I am also not throwing a fit at all. This is a minecraft roleplay server, I ain't gonna throw a fit over that. I just want to be able to do these sorts of healings because I enjoy healing RP and I don't see any reason why eyes are a red zone for clerics. So, yes, I do feel a bit insulted you don't see it as someone who disagrees with you and wants to argue for their position, and instead see it as me "throwing a fit." That's a rather harsh term for debate. Not everybody agrees on things, hence why the lore was written in the first place (because clerics could agree on barely anything, such as eye regrowth, and if they did were lax in informing the rest of the clerics).

 

I was taught by many different people, but it honestly doesn't matter who I was taught by. I'm arguing for clerics being able to heal eyes, which I don't see why it's such a problematic thing if we can, and thus far nobody has provided a legitimate argument, or addressed many of mine, to say otherwise other than "You just can't." Besides, even though the clerics were apparently not legally able to before I wrote this, this lore is changing more than just that, and far more controversial things than a healing spell that, if accepted, would require IC years of study and multiple clerics to do properly. How about we call it a lore proposal rather than something some clerics thought we could do and weren't told otherwise? Does that sound more appropriate?

[MetaSolaray 242]

Creates RP, but not really if you remove a character's eyes and the player doesn't want to have lost the eyes "Monk Magic."

 

Monk magic trumpts both as there is no need for time, resource, moral loss, anything really. If anything playable monks and monks in themselves remove both people out of the job. The clerical one concerning the eyes doesn't make sense when they can grow other limbs. Alchemy works why? Why does mixing a liver creates an eye, how does just taking the blood work? Magic.

 

That's all our magic needs to do, "Magic."

[dandan1350 479]

Il say now, clerical magic is the most god damn stupid and OP healing magic round in this server. A few prayers and you can save a guy missing half his innards. I have several reasons to disputes why priest healing shouldn't be a thing but I won't go into major debate as I critiqued other people for doing just such. Instead I'll say simply the regenaration of such complex things aren't needed. Priest healers healing power is strong enough as it is, trumping and near eliminating all medical RP anymore. When my character was wounded the first instinct even in the middle of Orem instead of treating me was to drag me half way across the world to a cleric. My Itharel doesn't heal, he claims he doesn't have the power too of which is an obvious lie, I do such as I disapprove of if.

Leave regenerations like these alone, let losing an eye, hearing or sight all together actually be.. Worrying. Not just a quick pop down to the local doctors for a band-aid.

[Ventusyr 232]

Alright. This is my view on the entire eye thing. However, this opinion is more about what would be better for roleplay more than saying if a cleric should or should not be able to heal an eye.

 

First off, from what I've heard, clerics were never meant to have been able to regenerate eyes. I think healing an eye is fine, but completely regenerating one is where my next point comes in,

 

Leave the regenerating for alchemists. Why? Because of the roleplay. I understand you're saying for a cleric to regenerate an eye it'd take a good while, but I think regenerating eyes and such should be left with alchemy which can be seen as immoral. I know of a few characters who would refuse a regeneration potion under the fact that it requires ones liver. For an alchemist's rp, a request to heal an eye or limb would include harvesting the liver of a mother of the same race as the patient, gathering other ingredients in general and also taking a large sample of the patients blood in order to make such a concoction. A lot of RP is involved in doing such, and I even know that a guild performs a ritual during the application of this potion. 

 

I know that you're only pertaining to eyes, while alchemy can still have limbs and such to heal. However, the removal of eyes isn't unheard of, and I've seen a good few people having lost an eye and some even wanting to gain it back. It creates character development. For example, if the character's morals were lawful good and they're wanting their eye healed. Would their morals outweigh their need of getting their eye back since the potion requires the liver? 

 

In the end, I think keeping alchemy the 'go to' for healing extremities is how it should be kept. As I said at the start, this is simply my opinion on how to create more interesting roleplay for characters, both the patients needing the eye regeneration and the alchemist, not my opinion whether clerics logically should be able to heal eyes or not.

 

Tl;dr. Clerics healing eyes will make more alchemists unemployed.

 

You make an excellent point. I don't want clerics to trespass on the RP of alchemists (and playable monks too). If clerics can regenerate, the only reason to go to them is for lost arms and stuff, which people go to Druids and runesmiths and the people who make those metal hands anyways. I'll write out regeneration for clerics.

 

 

 

Il say now, clerical magic is the most god damn stupid and OP healing magic round in this server. A few prayers and you can save a guy missing half his innards. I have several reasons to disputes why priest healing shouldn't be a thing but I won't go into major debate as I critiqued other people for doing just such. Instead I'll say simply the regenaration of such complex things aren't needed. Priest healers healing power is strong enough as it is, trumping and near eliminating all medical RP anymore. When my character was wounded the first instinct even in the middle of Orem instead of treating me was to drag me half way across the world to a cleric. My Itharel doesn't heal, he claims he doesn't have the power too of which is an obvious lie, I do such as I disapprove of if.

Leave regenerations like these alone, let losing an eye, hearing or sight all together actually be.. Worrying. Not just a quick pop down to the local doctors for a band-aid.

 

As much as I disagree that it's just popping a band-aid on, I will agree that our power is strong enough as is. I'll get rid of regeneration of extremities; small amounts of cartilage, flesh, and bone is all we can do.

[Gone 868]

-snip-

 

-snip-

 

These are such beautiful points that I want to hug you both. Cleric healing is indeed way too op which is why this huge debate over creating an eyeball was silly. Even without doing that they're strong. 

 

I've rp'd clerical healing, normal medical rp, and seen alchemy healing. Personally out of all three I hate watching a cleric heal the most. Why? Because they miss sooo much things and just... Kill the rp there. 

 

Recently when I've seen clerics heal it's simply pray, light appears, healed. Which is horribly sad because it could be some good rp. Hopefully with this new lore that changes a little bit at least but I'd like to throw in a few more suggestions real quick based off of things I've experienced as of late.

 

First off, a cleric shouldn't really use their light as often as many of them seem to do. Now obviously newer clerics need to practice and can't heal as many things so of course they're gonna be helping people with simple stuff like small cuts or minor wounds. However, a master cleric? One at the top of their abilities? They should be saving that energy for the really bad stuff instead of healing every little thing. 

 

I'm not saying ignore people who need healing, I'm saying use other methods. You've a couple clerics who combine alchemy with the light which is honestly marvelous. All clerics should know about basic medical skills such as stitches, surgery, alchemy salves and potions before they're ever given access to the light. Yet they then never use those skills... Which is a waste. I'd love to see clerics stitching up a lesser wound more often instead of healing it away.

 

Someone comes up with a arrow wound or slash from a sword? Use light to make sure they won't bleed out (aka heal the veins and vessels if needed) and then simply stitch it up. 

Broken bone? Use an alchemy salve to numb the area, set the bone (cut them open if you have to in order to set it properly), have the light heal it, then either stitch back up or use light to seal the cut if you indeed had to make one.

Stuff like that would be a rather good improvement I think. 

 

Also don't forget to make sure the patient is rping it correctly too. Clerical healing shouldn't be something they just sit there through. Think about it, your flesh is being quickly manipulated, tugged on, regrown. This should be rather uncomfortable even painful depending on what it is. And of course should be leaving scars. 

Too often people just sit there then act as if nothing happened, as if they were never wounded in the first place. 

 

If anything here didn't make sense I apologize, dealing with a migraine that I woke up to and it's kicking my butt. ;-;

 

Creates RP, but not really if you remove a character's eyes and the player doesn't want to have lost the eyes "Monk Magic."

 

Monk magic trumpts both as there is no need for time, resource, moral loss, anything really. If anything playable monks and monks in themselves remove both people out of the job. The clerical one concerning the eyes doesn't make sense when they can grow other limbs. Alchemy works why? Why does mixing a liver creates an eye, how does just taking the blood work? Magic.

 

That's all our magic needs to do, "Magic."

Clerics can't regrow limbs, they never could. Reattach yes but never has a cleric regrown an arm or leg.

[MetaSolaray 242]

 

 

I honestly think I've perhaps seen the worst side of clerics then because that's usually what I've seen. I'm no expert but I think Grim's point of combining all three fors of medical healing would be an even better way then any one form of magic/method of regrowing anything. 

 

Perhaps that could be developed in RP, a true doctor is not just ABC profession, but a master of the medical field of our time in all it's assortments. 

[ℤ∃ʁ∅ 823]

Well to add with this as a higher cleric and a leader of a cleric group, one of the trials I give to the new clerics IS to know the medical aiding, at least the basics. We have alchemist that will help and such to better their medical aiding and teaching them that we don't ALWAYS need to use our magic.

Even later, all new clerics gather to be taught what herbs can help and actions to do for what.

[Ventusyr 232]

We've been working on mixing up our RP. We understand people are a little tired of the simple prayer and lay-on-hands healing. I fought that by introducing candles and applying of prayed-over oils and doing it over an altar and making healings more riualized, but it is far more efficient for a cleric to use alchemy and their own two hands to do healings than waste their energy on things that can be dealt with mundanely.

 

I will write in the lore that patients will be tired after healings, especially flesh wounds where they lost blood.

 

I'm conflicted with making priest  healing magic cause pain. It would make clerical healing far more... Gruesome. What I was trying to do with this lore was make priest healers into the sort of classic DnD priestly cleric, who, at the height of their power, is a miracle worker. That's why I wanted the higher-tier spells to be best done with multiple clerics, and require chants and rituals and such. The painful healing is more down-to-earth, and the warm banisher-of-injuries type healing is more high-fantasy, something I've always appreciated and wanted for the server. Both have decent pros and cons, and change the general theme of clerics. Painful healing would certainly make the magic more unique; I loved Drone's Aengul lore, where the Aengul's clerics would feel the pain of their patient's injuries when healing. Having painful healing would also make the sedation spell have use - you have to sedate your patient before working on them so they don't feel whatever level of pain they'd have.

 

I dunno. I like both low-fantasy clerical healing and high-fantasy clerical healing equally. I'm going to confer with other clerics and people to see what their opinions on it are.