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A Coalition Marches..


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Honestly, you guys have no borders with Felsen, so I don't understand where you're getting the idea that your armies would just march up to it, nevermind go for a fair battle for the initiative in the first place.

 

If my opinion counts in this business as Lord Steward of Felsen, I will not accept this, unless how you can explain how your armies just moved around both Peremont and Dour Watch without issue.

 

EDITTED: Misread the terms, but there's still Dour Watch and Peremont in the way of your march, and you'd definitely meet resistance at both of those friendos.

 

Double edit: Checking the map, may be entirely wrong.

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I'm sorry, but isn't a skirmish to determine who the hell gets the initiative for a conquest warclaim?

 

Like honestly, there's no borders with Felsen, so I don't understand where you're getting the idea that your armies would just march up to it, nevermind go for a fair battle for the initiative in the first place.

 

If my opinion counts in this business as Lord Steward of Felsen, I will not accept this as it is, y'all can pm me and try to convince me otherwise about an eventual conquest warclaim, but I demand a proper skirmish to at least determine who's court the ball is in for the conquest in the first place.

 

EDIT: Misread the terms, but there's still Dour Watch and Peremont in the way of your march, and you'd definitely meet resistance at both of those friendos.

 

This is a 2-part war claim. The first battle on Friday will consist of the typical pitched battle skirmish in a no-man's land that comes before any siege. If it is won, then instead of waiting another week of raid wars and little rp, we can immediately move unto a siege within that weekend. 

 

Dour Watch and Peremont are both east of Felsen, not north of it. That is why Taylor posted this warclaim; to denote the march rallying at Vanaheim and going south, versus rallying at Adria and marching west.  Here is a map to display tactical movements in RP.  Circles would indicate battles. There are no crown loyalist holdfasts in between Adria/Haense/Vanaheim to prevent them from rallying together and executing a strike from the north versus the east, a strategy we figured would be a more decisive method of ending the war.

 

c8c8d21bc5d44501d15b810986a5ad1d.png

 

The Coalition army would rally at the North, before plunging itself south into Felsen where it is exposed versus having to grind through 2-3 vassal marches. 

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-snip-

 

Alright, in light of this, we will be getting our terms together for our acceptance. Might just take it as is, but I will edit this post when we've got it figured out!

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There are a few points we should address within this Warclaim prior to it being handled are;

 

  1. Sieging of Felsen (Capital)

  2. Open-Field Battle

  3. Defenses

  4. Logistics

  5. General Rules

 

Siege of Felsen

 

The Capital cannot be sieged immediately when Peremont and Dour Watch still stand. The movement of troops through at least two rivers and a mountain with a host, the land between Adria and Vanaheim is a too long of a path to take without the Crownland scouts noticing it.

 

https://i.gyazo.com/a5f4f230299bc488774bd1042ba87592.png

 

Nonetheless, as Dour Watch & Peremont both still stand the Capital then cannot be immediately sieged. Peremont and Dour Watch are both positioned in strategic standpoints preventing military access from those lands. Nonetheless, launching a siege from across the river is illogical and cannot be sustained “Over a week long RP” as you stated.

 

Open-Field Battle

 

Prior to actually launching a siege on either Peremont or Dour Watch there must be an open-field battle to determine if the forces of Adria can move forward. The winner of the Open-Field battle will be granted rights to siege a location of choice aside from the Capital. For Adria, this would mean either Peremont or Dour Watch and for the Loyalists this would mean Barrowyck or Waldstadt.

 

Defenses

 

We should not be denied the right to build defenses as the movement of Adrian forces will be transparent. Mobilising an army of this size would not go unnoticed especially when traveling through and near Crownlands. It would be illogical to not allow any defenses even if Felsen was to be sieged as the Loyalist forces would already know.

 

Logistics

 

Dependent on the siege weaponry used, the valid ammunition must be provided. I.E A limited number of shots dependent solely on the ammunition that the attacking forces have brought with them. For Trebuchets, this would depend on the amount of boulders carried and transported. Siege weaponry and equipment regarding the battle must also transported over.

 

General Rules

 

Rules

 

-Server Rules

-No fake statuses

-No returning to battle

-No One-Day Alts

-No TnT

-No Potions/Gapples

-No Grappling Hooks

-No Unrealistic use of Game Mechanics

 

(This is a counter-statement to the Warclaim. This can be further discussed however the Capital being the first place sieged does not make sense)

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-snip-

 

(This is a counter-statement to the Warclaim. This can be further discussed however the Capital being the first place sieged does not make sense)

 

1) If the distance between Vanaheim and Adria is too great for Adrians to march north, then it would be equally too great for Vanirs to come south. I'm fine with having the skirmish point be where you have indicated on your map, but there's no reason why everyone has to march south versus north. The terrain is the same whichever direction you traverse, and Dour Watch/Peremont were built to ward attacks from the east, not the north. That's a strategic venue we would like to utilize, and there's no RP reason we couldn't as the path north is all friendly territory.

 

2) The OP nor the follow-up post have denied the right for an open-field skirmish before any sieges. However, as your diagram showed, we are comfortable doing a skirmish anywhere the Adrian armies would move, such as that point you pointed out, or the point I pointed out. It doesn't make sense for us to just charge west though to face great fortifications when the north is far more exposed and just as difficult to traverse.

 

3) No one is arguing against improving defenses, but erecting a great wall or citadel in the short time responding to troop movements is unrealistic and unRP. We're mainly asking that citadels or walls don't start popping up every other day to drag this out for as long as possible. 

 

4) Agreed, a dedicated siege system will be necessary for the upcoming war. 

 

The rules are fine with me, though I would argue TNT should be allowed as part of the siege system. 

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Date has to be put on pause and eventually changed until we can reach terms. The current date is too soon, especially with no terms reached.

 

We will not accept a siege on the Capital as the first point of attack. You can attack either through Dour Watch or Peremont, at your discretion. However, a siege will only be decided upon after an Open-Field Battle consisting of Adrian Forces and Loyalist Forces.

 

The winner of the Open-Field battle will be granted rights to siege a location of choice aside from the Capital. For Adria, this would mean either Peremont or Dour Watch. However, another Warclaim would be posted by the winner if they wish to go through with the siege. Then one week after the post, the siege will take place. Not one day after. The post can be made at any time after the open-field battle. A location for the open field battle must be decided upon by both parties.

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Date has to be put on pause and eventually changed until we can reach terms. The current date is too soon, especially with no terms reached.

 

We will not accept a siege on the Capital as the first point of attack. You can attack either through Dour Watch or Peremont, at your discretion. However, a siege will only be decided upon after an Open-Field Battle consisting of Adrian Forces and Loyalist Forces.

 

The winner of the Open-Field battle will be granted rights to siege a location of choice aside from the Capital. For Adria, this would mean either Peremont or Dour Watch. However, another Warclaim would be posted by the winner if they wish to go through with the siege. Then one week after the post, the siege will take place. Not one day after. The post can be made at any time after the open-field battle. A location for the open field battle must be decided upon by both parties.

 

As I mentioned to you in PM, if we can't skirmish + siege this weekend, then we can argue about where to siege after the WC. We'll focus this particular warclaim as solely a skirmish one for this weekend. Winner gets chance to siege and push momentum; if Adria wins, it can get its FT and soulstone pillar sorted.  I'll update this post with location.

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As I mentioned to you in PM, if we can't skirmish + siege this weekend, then we can argue about where to siege after the WC. We'll focus this particular warclaim as solely a skirmish one for this weekend. Winner gets chance to siege and push momentum; if Adria wins, it can get its FT and soulstone pillar sorted.  I'll update this post with location.

 

FT + SS pillar for an unrecognised rebellious state? Winning an open-field battle doesn't entitle legitimacy.

 

We'll decide upon a day/date tomorrow with times. Felsen cannot be besieged first, especially not now simply due to the naval force of Vanaheim being eliminated, unfortunately. We'll decide upon an Open-Field battle location then after that, dependent on the victor, we can decide upon who would siege what location within a weeks time. 

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FT + SS pillar for an unrecognised rebellious state? Winning an open-field battle doesn't entitle legitimacy.

 

We'll decide upon a day/date tomorrow with times. Felsen cannot be besieged first, especially not now simply due to the naval force of Vanaheim being eliminated, unfortunately. We'll decide upon an Open-Field battle location then after that, dependent on the victor, we can decide upon who would siege what location within a weeks time. 

 

We were told by staff that that is what it will take for us to get a FT and SS, so it's more a general term for them. I don't think Oren (at least, I hope they don't) have control over who gets FT and SS's or not, so I'll leave that to the staff to decide.

 

I also cleared it up with a GM on the matter of boats, as long as they are rebuilt in time for a WC, then they are operational.  Furthermore, the land route to Felsen is still available, and will only take the fording of a small river (think it's like 3-5 blocks). Considering any siege will be determined next weekend (an rp year, plenty of time to both boats in RP and plans in OOC) and not this one, though, it's an argument that'll be dealt for another time.

 

EDIT: I'd also like to bring up that if the current loyalist regime is unable to fight us on any day of the weekend, we should be able to get our FT and SS; if they are unable to defend their mantle and fight us at some point within those three days, as this would be the 2nd time a warclaim was pushed back and demonstrates an inability to quell a rebellious state from an IC perspective.

 

From an OOC perspective, it's lame that we are ready to fight for our perks but are stalled out of them time and perhaps, time again. Just because a leader cannot find a time over a three-day period doesn't mean that it should get pushed back for the 100+ players involved and us forced to wait another week for the perks that we should have, given that smaller and less legitimate RP hubs possess them.

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We were told by staff that that is what it will take for us to get a FT and SS, so it's more a general term for them. I don't think Oren (at least, I hope they don't) have control over who gets FT and SS's or not, so I'll leave that to the staff to decide.

 

I also cleared it up with a GM on the matter of boats, as long as they are rebuilt in time for a WC, then they are operational.  Furthermore, the land route to Felsen is still available, and will only take the fording of a small river (think it's like 3-5 blocks). Considering any siege will be determined next weekend (an rp year, plenty of time to both boats in RP and plans in OOC) and not this one, though, it's an argument that'll be dealt for another time.

 

EDIT: I'd also like to bring up that if the current loyalist regime is unable to fight us on any day of the weekend, we should be able to get our FT and SS; if they are unable to defend their mantle and fight us at some point within those three days, as this would be the 2nd time a warclaim was pushed back and demonstrates an inability to quell a rebellious state from an IC perspective.

 

From an OOC perspective, it's lame that we are ready to fight for our perks but are stalled out of them time and perhaps, time again. Just because a leader cannot find a time over a three-day period doesn't mean that it should get pushed back for the 100+ players involved and us forced to wait another week for the perks that we should have, given that smaller and less legitimate RP hubs possess them.

 

Just because some people may have other, real life, obligations on the date it means that we cannot quell a rebellious state?

 

As I said, we're not going to accept a siege on the capital. Nonetheless, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. The whole fleet will not be able to be rebuilt within such a short time, especially with regular assaults on Northern Holdings, and in winter. The land route to Felsen would require you passing through either Peremont or Dour Watch, of which one would at least have to be siege prior to Felsen being sieged.

 

We also have to decide upon the field of battle in which the open-field skirmish will take place. Then whoever wins, the Warclaim will take place a week after the second warclaim is posted by the Victor of the open-field battle. 

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The warclaim has been postponed till next Saturday.

As the attacking side cannot meet the dates of Friday nor Saturday, and we cannot meet Sunday. It is only logical.

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Alright, being the mod overseeing this, I'm going to step in - in an attempt to get this show on a road and, for lack of a better term, force compromise because both sides for one reason or another are failing to fully agree on most, if not all things. Bear in mind, as I write this, I'm considering my talks with both sides, their paths of logic, and also I have consulted the recently added dynamap - which has been incredibly helpful.

 

83b56b90fe026fb04bd361fff91943cc.png

 

A view of the topography, first of all. Now, to make things abundantly clear, we're going to be setting things up in preparation for the pitched battle. However, the location of the battle will depend on which plans the attackers - being the Coalition, decide to go on. Now, I've carefully considered the balance between realism and fun, comparatively realism and fairness, and finally what would make for compelling stories in a historical and RP sense. What would be fascinating if I was reading about this war from a future perspective, in a history book, what would seem believable. So, with those ramblings finished, I will present both sides with 3 options to platform from once the pitched battle is complete. Since that seems to be everyone's main concern, instead of, you know, the first actual bloody battle that decides the direction of the entire war.

 

2406b70044c38a21cb4b65091686e0ce.png

 

Now then, the red arrows are what I have surmised as the Coalition's plan of approach. The most direct path is through some rather inhospitable terrain, if the intention was to go around the tributaries and through the forest valley - then sure, pretend I drew an arrow there.

 

This brings me to option 1.

 

Option 1 will be the Coalition is able to advance on their merry way to the rendezvous point in Vanaheim, at which point they will then march upon Felsen. However due to the direct approach being literally half that, the loyalist Orenians will be permitted to conduct a counter-march if they so choose, upon Brelus. The Coalition will of course be allowed to have a garrison within Brelus, but all who participate in its defense will not be able to participate in any future engagements that involve the Coalition's main force. I will be counting heads.

 

Now, that's rather bias Cosmic, it sounds like the loyalists have no cons to being able to counter-march upon Brelus. Wrong. Their allies are leagues away and thus - If the loyalists decide to press a quick attack upon Brelus, while the Coalition army is 'on march' they will have zero external support. This, too, will involve a very strict counting of heads. In both scenarios if I see any extra heads, I will simply tempban those individuals for the duration of the battle.

 

Here is the final kicker to option 1. If the loyalists win in their besieging of Brelus, they will be permitted to return to intercept the incoming forces from Vanaheim on the field. If the loyalists lose, there will be no pitched battle, and the Coalition will be permitted to directly siege Felsen on the assumption that the forces are in need of recovery and restocking. A note to the Coalition, you have stressed several times that your main forces will be on the march to Vanaheim, so if I see a ridiculous garrison in Brelus so you can scum your way into an easy siege on Felsen, I will intervene.

 

Be smart, this is a sort of wild card option though, just thought it'd be interesting.

 

Option 2 is, the Coalition decides to make a path of approach with the green arrows, the more direct approach. This is the most straightforward option. Vanaheim troops will be permitted to join in, as will any other allies for either side. Total absolute brawl on the roads between the two sides, both sides giving it all they have and just... Having an epic, awesome battle. Should the Coalition win, they will then have to besiege Peremont, at which point if they win that they can then besiege Felsen. Alternatively, though it doesn't make a lot of sense - it is fair - the loyalists if victorious will first need to besiege Barrowick, Barrowyck, barrelwick, however it's spelled. Afterwards they can then besiege Brelus.

 

A drawn out conflict, with simple terms to understand, and both sides giving it their absolute all in every battle. Epic play outs and awesome stories are to be had, and while it doesn't entirely make sense in a few aspects, it is in my opinion quite fair and easy to adhere to.

 

Option 3 shall be Vanaheim conducting an initial attack upon Felsen unassisted by the rest of the Coalition. Bear in mind Vanaheim, that does not include anyone else.

 

The loyalists will have two options. Keep the main forces in the fortifications, this will however void the notion of a pitched battle, and the rest of the Coalition shall then be able to besiege Peremont uninhibited in a separate battle a few days after the initial Vanaheissian attack. Troops stationed in Felsen will be able to march out from the city ten minutes after the siege on Peremont commences, I'll be taking screenshots of the Vanaheissian attack and teleport anyone I see in Peremont that participated back to Felsen. Second option for loyalists, do the same thing the Coalition would do and station a garrison in Felsen, while preparing the bulk of your forces in Peremont for the attack by the main forces of the Coalition. On one hand, you will not have to wait for reinforcements, on the other hand your capital is severely less defended and the Vanaheissian attack suddenly has a lot more threat.

 

In both scenarios, with the siege on Peremont, allies will approach by foot/horse, from their capital, and get there when they get there. They will only be permitted to leave when the broadcast for the siege takes place.

 

So then, the stakes for option three are as follows.

 

If the loyalists stave off both attacks from the Coalition, then Brelus is free game. If the loyalists succeed in defending one place but lose another, they have to take that place back before thinking of attacking Brelus. If the loyalists lose both battles, that's rather obvious, Coalition wins.

 

This one is sort of a marriage between 'realism' ""quotes"" and fairness. Logistics are moderately considered and the stakes, in my opinion are relatively even.

 

Read these options over, converse amongst yourselves, if there's anything for any option that needs clarification or fine tuning, just pm me with your questions.

 

I will be expecting a response on Sunday with your choice, if both sides decide on two different options, the first one to come forward with their choice will be asked one final question. Heads or tails. At which point I will literally flip a US half dollar, and depending on the result, we go forward with that.

 

This war is going to get on the road, one way, or another.

 

Oh also, hard set for the first battle, no matter what choice.

 

August 15th, 5PM EST, 10PM GMT. There will be no more date changes.

 

I don't care who gets banned, I don't care who can't make it, I don't care if someone's ant farm was flooded and they have to mourn the loss of their colony that day. That is the date.

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