[Lore: Repost] Dwarven Siege Cannon

[Bogrin 120]

1 hour ago, AGiantPie said:

Simple guns aren't that complicated, and explosive arrows are ludicrously illogical. The point is that the supposed "fantasy" tech-lock is fickle at best. I would rather all ranged explosives be simply disallowed.

I don't know if you don't have much knowledge on gunsmithing, or you simply have vastly different opinions on what is "not complicated". Long before the handcannon (very early handgun) was developed, cannon and rocket technology had to be perfected. The very idea that explosives can be used to propel for weaponry is fairly advanced. Simple bombs however have been around for a very, very long time, they are inarguably ancient. It is not at all far fetched for an archer to strap a simple bomb to an arrow, and when the receptacle is broken on impact, boom. There are other routes of course. It is well documented in the early days of chinese warfare that there would be bags of blackpowder attached to the end of arrows and lit, it was an early form of artillery. And this is ancient technology.

 

49 minutes ago, ˢᵏʸ said:

As much as I hate to say this, if explosive /arrows/ are a thing then how aren't cannons? I am against the whole "Dwarven Siege Cannon" though, there's no reason why a dwarf would just have a better cannon because dwarf.

You can read my above assertions. There is a serious misunderstanding of what it actually takes to make a viable cannon, its not just a metal barrel with gunpowder and a ball in it. Thousands of years of explosive and weaponry technology went into even the earliest and most rudimentary cannons. Simple bombs on wooden sticks flying through the air is nowhere near as complex.

[AGiantPie 3169]

10 minutes ago, Bogrin said:

I don't know if you don't have much knowledge on gunsmithing, or you simply have vastly different opinions on what is "not complicated". Long before the handcannon (very early handgun) was developed, cannon and rocket technology had to be perfected. The very idea that explosives can be used to propel for weaponry is fairly advanced. Simple bombs however have been around for a very, very long time, they are inarguably ancient. It is not at all far fetched for an archer to strap a simple bomb to an arrow, and when the receptacle is broken on impact, boom. There are other routes of course. It is well documented in the early days of chinese warfare that there would be bags of blackpowder attached to the end of arrows and lit, it was an early form of artillery. And this is ancient technology.

 

You can read my above assertions. There is a serious misunderstanding of what it actually takes to make a viable cannon, its not just a metal barrel with gunpowder and a ball in it. Thousands of years of explosive and weaponry technology went into even the earliest and most rudimentary cannons. Simple bombs on wooden sticks flying through the air is nowhere near as complex.

Strapping a bomb onto an arrow (especially if it is an impact bomb) will make firing the arrow impossible. Strapping a bomb to an arrow and having it be an effective military device is not easy and simple. The idea that ranged impact explosives (basically RPGs via arrow delivery) are ok and readily available whereas cannons are absolutely not permitted via tech lock is really quite stupid to me. 

 

"Simple bombs" aren't very simple. Making an impact bomb is very complicated (If a cannon is complicated then an impact bomb is complicated too) - especially if you want your impact bomb to only explode when it hits the enemy and not when it hits you. And, as I mentioned above, you can't just strap something heavy and not very aerodynamic onto the end of an arrow and expect it to be an effective weapon.

[Bogrin 120]

7 minutes ago, AGiantPie said:

Strapping a bomb onto an arrow (especially if it is an impact bomb) will make firing the arrow impossible. Strapping a bomb to an arrow and having it be an effective military device is not easy and simple. The idea that ranged impact explosives (basically RPGs via arrow delivery) are ok and readily available whereas cannons are absolutely not permitted via tech lock is really quite stupid to me. 

 

"Simple bombs" aren't very simple. Making an impact bomb is very complicated (If a cannon is complicated then an impact bomb is complicated too) - especially if you want your impact bomb to only explode when it hits the enemy and not when it hits you. And, as I mentioned above, you can't just strap something heavy and not very aerodynamic onto the end of an arrow and expect it to be an effective weapon.

I am sorry but you are simply incorrect about bombs; history can easily disprove you, especially ancient Chinese history. I agree that the arrows are less aerodynamic, but I do not think they are for sniping. You seem to be making assertions without having done the research. Even a quick google will find that it is feasible. Perhaps even just browse the "fire arrow" wikipedia page. It covers all sorts of "fire arrows" including explosive ones.

[AGiantPie 3169]

48 minutes ago, Bogrin said:

I am sorry but you are simply incorrect about bombs; history can easily disprove you, especially ancient Chinese history. I agree that the arrows are less aerodynamic, but I do not think they are for sniping. You seem to be making assertions without having done the research. Even a quick google will find that it is feasible. Perhaps even just browse the "fire arrow" wikipedia page. It covers all sorts of "fire arrows" including explosive ones.

Can it? Please cite historical examples of where impact explosives were used, particularly ones where cannons are not also simultaneously in use. Also, "A quick google search" is not research, my friend. 

 

Regardless, a safe impact explosive is not an easy thing to create (Neither is a cannon tbf, but its not like a cannon is super duper hard and impact explosives are easy peasy), and an impact explosive that can travel through the air attached to an arrow but not explode until it hits the ground or a target is even harder. Explosive weapons such as black powder grenades (Not impact explosives though!) and incendiary weapons like greek fire are historical, but so are cannons and guns. You also seem to be mistaken on what "fire arrows" actually were. They used explosives to propel themselves (they were basically arrows with rockets on the back), but they were not impact explosives like our explosive arrows are. Also, they had to be fired from an actual "siege" machine, they could not be delivered via any hand held bow. (Well I suppose they COULD but then they would just be normal arrows, the rocket part is irrelevant if it is being fired via a bow). The explosive arrows we have on the server currently are basically handheld RPGs that can be fired with the same weapon that fires every other kind of arrow... though I suppose the name 'APG' is better, given that they are propelled by an arrow.

 

Regardless, the idea that we can make advanced impact grenades but are incapable of manufacturing a weapon that uses explosives as propellant is ludicrously stupid to me, especially since the only reason for why we can't is that the LMs think cannons are outside our "theme." Dumb as **** tbh.

[Hiebe 2475]

Cant wait till I can use gunpowder weapons as the dwarves or humans in total war warhammer and not deal with ooc complaining from the other side.

[KarmaDelta 968]

1 hour ago, AGiantPie said:

Strapping a bomb onto an arrow (especially if it is an impact bomb) will make firing the arrow impossible.

 

Green Arrow disagrees!

 

[AGiantPie 3169]

29 minutes ago, Valkorion said:

-Snip-

Lmao. There are ways to attach explosives to an arrowhead, but just 'strapping some explosives' to an arrow will not make an effective missile.

[Bogrin 120]

10 hours ago, AGiantPie said:

Can it? Please cite historical examples of where impact explosives were used, particularly ones where cannons are not also simultaneously in use. Also, "A quick google search" is not research, my friend. 

 

Regardless, a safe impact explosive is not an easy thing to create (Neither is a cannon tbf, but its not like a cannon is super duper hard and impact explosives are easy peasy), and an impact explosive that can travel through the air attached to an arrow but not explode until it hits the ground or a target is even harder. Explosive weapons such as black powder grenades (Not impact explosives though!) and incendiary weapons like greek fire are historical, but so are cannons and guns. You also seem to be mistaken on what "fire arrows" actually were. They used explosives to propel themselves (they were basically arrows with rockets on the back), but they were not impact explosives like our explosive arrows are. Also, they had to be fired from an actual "siege" machine, they could not be delivered via any hand held bow. (Well I suppose they COULD but then they would just be normal arrows, the rocket part is irrelevant if it is being fired via a bow). The explosive arrows we have on the server currently are basically handheld RPGs that can be fired with the same weapon that fires every other kind of arrow... though I suppose the name 'APG' is better, given that they are propelled by an arrow.

 

Regardless, the idea that we can make advanced impact grenades but are incapable of manufacturing a weapon that uses explosives as propellant is ludicrously stupid to me, especially since the only reason for why we can't is that the LMs think cannons are outside our "theme." Dumb as **** tbh.

Allow me to cite an example

" 1221, the Thundercrash Bombs, used by the Jin invaders during the attack of Qizhou, which were exploding grenades filled with black powder rather than incendiary bombs filled with molten material, and lastly in 1232 when the Jin repelled the Mongolians in the battle of Kai-keng. "

(yes it says grenades but they were talking of fire arrows, they are merely using a different term to describe it) They were cast iron or bamboo tubes packed with black powder.

the defenders had a "thunder-crash bomb" which "consisted of gunpowder put into an iron container ... then when the fuse was lit (and the projectile shot off) there was a great explosion the noise whereof was like thunder

They were used in the exact same manner as the explosive arrows on LoTC. In addition to this they were thrown. You seem to have done a quick google yourself and labeled them all early forms of rockets. That is not accurate. I will admit that these were not impact explosives, but they seem to have had the same effect regardless. 

 

Despite this, I am sure you will not be convinced. I tire of this circular debate, when it seems neither will convince the other and neither of our assertions will change anything about the lore itself. All I advise you to do is take a skeptical look at the lore which the Orenians themselves frequently use, such as the Church of the Canon, before casting a possibly biased eye on the Dwarves. I will not get into any more arguments on this thread.

[AGiantPie 3169]

2 hours ago, Bogrin said:

Allow me to cite an example

" 1221, the Thundercrash Bombs, used by the Jin invaders during the attack of Qizhou, which were exploding grenades filled with black powder rather than incendiary bombs filled with molten material, and lastly in 1232 when the Jin repelled the Mongolians in the battle of Kai-keng. "

(yes it says grenades but they were talking of fire arrows, they are merely using a different term to describe it) They were cast iron or bamboo tubes packed with black powder.

the defenders had a "thunder-crash bomb" which "consisted of gunpowder put into an iron container ... then when the fuse was lit (and the projectile shot off) there was a great explosion the noise whereof was like thunder

They were used in the exact same manner as the explosive arrows on LoTC. In addition to this they were thrown. You seem to have done a quick google yourself and labeled them all early forms of rockets. That is not accurate. I will admit that these were not impact explosives, but they seem to have had the same effect regardless. 

 

Despite this, I am sure you will not be convinced. I tire of this circular debate, when it seems neither will convince the other and neither of our assertions will change anything about the lore itself. All I advise you to do is take a skeptical look at the lore which the Orenians themselves frequently use, such as the Church of the Canon, before casting a possibly biased eye on the Dwarves. I will not get into any more arguments on this thread.

The thundercrash bomb was a thrown grenade that had a timed fuse, not an impact explosive.

 

They were not used in the exact same manner as the explosive arrows on LotC, as they were timed fuse grenades that did not explode as soon as they hit (no chance for the person being attacked to avoid the explosion), were not guaranteed to explode (As the fuse might get snuffed out, or the bomb may have been a dud or w/e as opposed to 100% perfect explosion rate from explosive arrows), had much more limited range because they were thrown instead of launched from a bow. Really, the only similarities that our explosive arrows share with this weapon is that they are both explosive weapons. There are no other similarities. 

 

I also take care to note that hand guns and basic cannons came into existence around the same time that thundercrash bombs did. To say that a weapon significantly more advanced than a thundercrash bomb is A-ok in terms of technological development whereas a weapon that existed at the same time as a thundercrash bomb is too advanced and ruins our theme is dumb.

 

Regardless of whether or not this weapon existed is irrelevant. Cannons also existed historically, yet we've put a lock on that weapon. What matters is whether or not a weapon makes sense in our lore and is balanced, fun, and fair to use in Pvp (A weapon that one shots through any armor no matter what is stupid and should not exist, for example). Explosive arrows don't make sense if other (and simpler) explosive weapons aren't allowed, and explosive arrows are extremely stupid for Pvp.

 

Biased eye on the Dwarves? What? We're not even talking about Dwarven lore here, we're talking about explosive arrows, which anybody can make/use. I am OK with cannons existing, though I think locking cannon making to one race is dumb, but I also think that explosive arrows are stupid and should not exist.

 

P.S. - I like how you assume I did a quick google search whilst simultaneously quoting Wikipedia, then fail to label your source.

[Cpt_Noobman 1346]

Guys, please don't get into huge arguments on this thread. I appreciate you both expressing your opinions rather you support my idea or disagree, but try to keep it civil.

[Tristanx7 135]

I personally think that this is a good idea, although I feel that it should be opened up for all races/nations, not simply being a dwarven weapon, which is something that the original poster said would be fine by him. In the past days of LOTC, we had cannons, albeit very poorly regulated ones. When cannons were banned previously, all forms of explosives besides alchemists' fire were removed lore-wise and server-wise. Since you can now create blocks of TNT, explosive arrows, and fireworks, it would seem very reasonable that cannons could get brought back as well. Now, Cpt_Noobman has presented a well balanced, mechanically sound idea for a new type of siege weapon. Which is what it should be viewed as, a new type of siege weapon, not necessarily something that breaks the "fantasy aesthetic". For those of you worried about said aesthetic, just think about Warhammer Fantasy, a setting which, in my opinion, is on par with Middle Earth. For those of you not aware of the setting, it features many races which we have on LOTC, and has provided a lot of inspiration to many of them. Both the humans and the dwarves have their own variations of cannon alongside siege weapons like trebuchets and ballistae. My point is, cannons in a medieval fantasy setting do work well, and I agree with previous sentiments on this thread that having ballistae and trebuchets on ships look weird (although I know that Roman ships did have catapults and other weapons for naval combat).

 

TL;DR: The implementation of this cannon lore would bring an interesting element and further enhance the fantasy setting of LOTC, not hinder it.

[Bloodnight 170]

On 1/25/2016 at 9:12 PM, Bogrin said:

Guns use explosives as a propellant and require advanced machining ability to produce. Cannons are similar, albeit more simplistic. This is VASTLY different from strapping a bag of explosive material to the end of an arrow shaft.

You realize cannons are mainly cast right, out of a mold.. so its easy to replicate over and over. The server allows gunpowder as an explosive currently, s o all you do in order to make a cannon is just to create the barrel.

 

[ryno2 1238]

bump, seems pretty cool

+1

[Destroyer_Bravo 1052]

Bogrin pretty sure that's a hand grenade not an exploding arrow, just saying.

[Bloodnight 170]

Time enough this got accepted, it doesn't even need to be lore approved because all the aspects of the weapon are already in play on the server. We can easily say that cannons pretty much are a thing in fantasy, so the argument of preserving the "fantasy element" of the server is a useless and hopeless one. Warhammer Fantasy,  which is an amazing universe, has cannons as a widely accepted part of war, and does so extremely well. It doesn't conflict with anything that makes the game fantasy, it even improves it seriously in certain regards, it gives the Dwarves and Humans alike a powerful weapon, albeit yes the Dwarves do understand the technology far better than the Humans do;

 

"Still, for all their bumbling about they certainly know how to make good cannons. You'll rarely see a Dwarf cannon blow up, not like those shoddy, cheap, over-sized pop guns that the men of the Empire are so proud of...Great Cannons, Bah!"  - Warhammer Wiki. 

 

Cannons aren't something to be scared of, they won't ruin the fantasy element of the server and to think that is foolish, if anything it'll improve it. Also, if the High Elves get a massive magical cannon, why cant we get a gunpowder based cannon when, and I mean this seriously, literally everything necessary for a cannon to operate already exists on the server.