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[✗] Malchediael and His Celestine [Magic]


Aelesh
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I'm a little off-put by the mention of not using mana. In previously established lores, it's stated that all 'magic' effects require mana to work, so this would be breaking that. Mana is the essence which allows magical effects to occur, and gives the user control over said magic. Generally with deific magics, it uses both mana to allow the foundation for this, and then aengudaemonic energy carries out the rest of its functions. Basically from what I can tell the reasoning is so that magics actually have counters such as being able to be warded or corrupted.

 

Small qualm, illusions don't break if someone knows it's an illusion. They break if the illusion itself was designed in an unbelievable manner, like making someone feel happy if they see their wife die, or feel pain from being stabbed without seeing a knife stabbing them, etc.

 

I don't very much like the implementation of mandatory rolls into roleplay, it halts a lot of personal choice and creativity in my opinion, but that's just me.

 

Does the transformation which makes them taller/stronger go away when they run out of celestine power? Or just if they're disconnected? How does initial connection work, just reading the scrolls/whatever?

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1 hour ago, Gladuos said:

I'm a little off-put by the mention of not using mana. In previously established lores, it's stated that all 'magic' effects require mana to work, so this would be breaking that. Mana is the essence which allows magical effects to occur, and gives the user control over said magic. Generally with deific magics, it uses both mana to allow the foundation for this, and then aengudaemonic energy carries out the rest of its functions. Basically from what I can tell the reasoning is so that magics actually have counters such as being able to be warded or corrupted.

 

Small qualm, illusions don't break if someone knows it's an illusion. They break if the illusion itself was designed in an unbelievable manner, like making someone feel happy if they see their wife die, or feel pain from being stabbed without seeing a knife stabbing them, etc.

 

I don't very much like the implementation of mandatory rolls into roleplay, it halts a lot of personal choice and creativity in my opinion, but that's just me.

 

Does the transformation which makes them taller/stronger go away when they run out of celestine power? Or just if they're disconnected? How does initial connection work, just reading the scrolls/whatever?

 

This magic has been crafted in such a way that the use of mana is not needed. Unlike other aengudaemonic magics, the power is not being channeled directly from the deity, much like Muun' magic; the power is stored within the user. This energy has a tendency to react to the word of Jomaal, and take on particular forms as a result of this. This magic is almost comparable to the Azdrazi in that an inner energy is simply activated or 'pushed forth', rather than controlled with a mana anchor. This is why energy continuously leaves the body of the Celestine, as they continuously have this aura that diminishes over time. It's quite an odd magic in that it does break a lot of rules, agreed, but that is hopefully what will make it unique rather than problematic.

 

It is still affected by Fi' magic, since the energy can be thrown into the Void, and warding and abjuration could still be made to work; the abjuration would simply be corralling the energy or forcing it to remain in a single area, rather than destroying a mana anchor. There is no reason why all present skills to deal with magic cannot work against the likes of the Celestine, it is simply that these skills may need to be developed and researched IC (which is already the case for a budding abjurationist in the first place, mind you).

 

This is what was meant originally, poor wording seems to have muddied that. I'll get to changing it soon.

 

The rolling is the only way by which we can enforce a consistent method across all roleplay. It is suitably random, is staged in such a way that there is a different between master and student levels, and demonstrates something tangible that all can see. I like the rolling system as a means of producing a very tangible, concrete system for the roleplay. Peronally, I find the freeform nature of many other magics when it comes to 'drawbacks', much too freeform, and thus they allow for too much leniency either way. This magic is made to have very real, very tangible drawbacks that one can predict and know they will fall prey to. IC, I hope this tempers the Celestine's judgment of how and when they use their skills, given just how catastrophic it can be for them. At the end of the day, there should be no personal choice as to when you're character buckles; there are predefined limits and dangers over which you have no control, and you should be fully aware of them and unable to control them when roleplay ensues.

 

The transformation only reverts if they are disconnected; just in the way that Keepers are always Keepers, Celestine are always Celestine. There is a ritual involving the scrolls that needs to be taught, and cannot be intuited. For the sake of secrecy, I shan't be disclosing it here, simply that this ritual exists, and it involves the use of the scrolls in the aforementioned Reliquary/Chamber of Advent.

 

(Sorry if there are any typos or mistakes, typing this at speed.)

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If it's magic it uses mana as dictated by previous lores. It's as simple as that, and Muun uses mana (although muun doesn't exist anymore), Azdrazi uses mana, alongside their secondary forms of power that lets it function. I believe Azdrazi's energy is just a twisted form of mana, thus can be abjured as it can still be considered 'active mana'. Abjuration doesn't work like what you say, it dispells/manipulates mana anchors, no other forms of energy. Basically if it can be called 'magic', then it requires mana. Like you've touched on, I think it'll become more problematic and conflicting than unique as you might've intended. It doesn't even have to be believed IC that mana is involved as was the case with muun, but it does have to have it for the sake of consistency among lores.

 

Like I said I think rolling is just a poor means of doing what you want to do. I think it's not enough freeform whereas without it you think there's too much. I'm not saying people should have the choice whether they suffer consequences of using their magic or not, I'm saying perhaps give a little more trust in the people using such a magic not to powergame. It may be roleplay, but it's not exactly an RPG, which is what I'm taking away from this by making something like that mandatory. So it gives me very bad vibes.

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17 minutes ago, Gladuos said:

If it's magic it uses mana as dictated by previous lores. It's as simple as that, and Muun uses mana (although muun doesn't exist anymore), Azdrazi uses mana, alongside their secondary forms of power that lets it function. I believe Azdrazi's energy is just a twisted form of mana, thus can be abjured as it can still be considered 'active mana'. Abjuration doesn't work like what you say, it dispells/manipulates mana anchors, no other forms of energy. Basically if it can be called 'magic', then it requires mana. Like you've touched on, I think it'll become more problematic and conflicting than unique as you might've intended. It doesn't even have to be believed IC that mana is involved as was the case with muun, but it does have to have it for the sake of consistency among lores.

 

Like I said I think rolling is just a poor means of doing what you want to do. I think it's not enough freeform whereas without it you think there's too much. I'm not saying people should have the choice whether they suffer consequences of using their magic or not, I'm saying perhaps give a little more trust in the people using such a magic not to powergame. It may be roleplay, but it's not exactly an RPG, which is what I'm taking away from this by making something like that mandatory. So it gives me very bad vibes.

 

There is no reason why one cannot develop abjuration to work in some other way; yes, it has up until this point referred only to disrupting mana anchors, but there is no reason why that terminology couldn't be expanded to also encompass another practice. As I said, a new method for defending against it could be developed quite happily to exactly the same effect. I do not think that it is a large concern, and could quite easily be incoporated into abjuration. I have also said in my previous reply that I understand exactly how abjuration works, and I agree that right now it only interacts with mana anchors. Why can we not develop a technique for abjuring Celestine-based magic based on filling an area full of mana + Voidal energy to prevent it from effecting the beings of others (thus resulting in effectively a ward/abjuration, as the magic cannot take effect)? There is no reason, seeing as a mage could pull this off theoretically. Basically, open up your way of thinking and think about abjuration as a broader platforms of 'kinds' of wards and abjurations that each deal with different magics in different ways. If you wanted to keep it very similar, you could even simply say that abjuration disrupts the make up of the energy, which would effectively result in exactly what disrupting the mana anchor would, this time it simply interacting with the aengudaemonic energy directly.

 

If it's magic, it has used mana up until now, is really the rule - it isn't 'a rule that cannot be broken'. Considering that I have put forth reasons why this magic would be effected in exactly the same way as other magics by both Fi' and abjuration, I will turn your point around; why can abjurationists/Fi' mages not simply believe they are interacting with mana? At the end of the day, the only important thing is that the magic is capable of being abjured/warded/Fi' magic'd away, which it is, like all other magic. The reasoning behind not using mana, is because we do not want these magicians to feel fatigue as a drawback. It's been overdone, time and time again, and we feel that the rage is a more interesting drawback with just as much effectiveness.

 

To sum this up; this magic is, for certain, capable of being effected by the three kinds of magic mentioned. No, it may not use mana, but seeing as it's still effected in exactly the same way I don't think it promotes a problem.

 

People who have seen this magic, and who have been interested in it, have welcomed and encouraged the rolling. I understand that you may not like it, but others have really liked it for making the magic simple and easy to roleplay. It's not a matter of trust, just a matter of doing it one way over another.

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57 minutes ago, Gladuos said:

If it's magic it uses mana as dictated by previous lores. It's as simple as that, and Muun uses mana (although muun doesn't exist anymore), Azdrazi uses mana, alongside their secondary forms of power that lets it function. I believe Azdrazi's energy is just a twisted form of mana, thus can be abjured as it can still be considered 'active mana'. Abjuration doesn't work like what you say, it dispells/manipulates mana anchors, no other forms of energy. Basically if it can be called 'magic', then it requires mana. Like you've touched on, I think it'll become more problematic and conflicting than unique as you might've intended. It doesn't even have to be believed IC that mana is involved as was the case with muun, but it does have to have it for the sake of consistency among lores.

 

Like I said I think rolling is just a poor means of doing what you want to do. I think it's not enough freeform whereas without it you think there's too much. I'm not saying people should have the choice whether they suffer consequences of using their magic or not, I'm saying perhaps give a little more trust in the people using such a magic not to powergame. It may be roleplay, but it's not exactly an RPG, which is what I'm taking away from this by making something like that mandatory. So it gives me very bad vibes.


Azdrazi do not use mana. The inner-flame is essentially channeled from their ichor/daemon blood without extra aid.

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So basically you're asking other lores accommodate for yours rather than the other way around?

 

And yeah, the Nephilim lore states their mana pool is transformed into the inner flame, which I'd say is basically a twisted form of mana.

 

I'm not talking down on your lore, I just want to make sure I say that. I'm just saying it'd probably be a lot easier all around if the lore tried fitting with pre-established lore instead of trying to change it.

Basically read some of this too.

 

I just want to add further onto this that just because a magic uses mana doesn't inherently mean the users of such become fatigued physically by it. Druidism uses mana yet many of them do not roleplay fatigue, but a mental slip despite this. The origin of where this mana comes from may be left vague, as it may be inherently a part of the aengudaemonic energy being channeled rather than from the soul alone... Although aengudaemonic energy is generally channeled through a connection in the soul too, but... Whatever, really.

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I love this! (Its a bit like a bard in mmo's, with all that ally buffing and such)  +1

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Moved to pending where it'll await potential changes/further review.

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This Lore has been denied. Topic moved to Denied Lore forum.

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