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Treshure

[GM] The case against Child GMs

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2 hours ago, Veist said:

 

Bans aren't logged publicly because IP Addresses are in them. Also, that is already a thing, if a ban is wrong then the player banned can explain the situation the GM told them about. A lot of the words Treshure speaks on the thread ring true, despite some glaring flaws in it, I was also a teen-aged moderator and I feel I did well, but do you really want to give kids a job this stressful? I only just turned 18 and I look back to my time as a GM the first 2 times as a period of learning and a stressful one at that.

 

I always have believed in merit over age, but even now I continue to question it because of the study Treshure has cited in reference to brain development.

 

Okay, let's not log any bans publicly and let's not use the ban report format that everyone else uses because for some reason when someone puts up a ban report they have to DOX the person getting banned. Great excuse!

 

In all seriousness, it's as easy as putting an application/report up on the forums with the player's username and reason for being banned along with the expiry date of said ban. GM's shouldn't be allowed to ban without filing a ban report first.

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You guys are all raising solid points against me. Post wasn’t perfect by any means, just wanted to bring discussion. Good ****

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22 hours ago, drfate786 said:

 

Okay, let's not log any bans publicly and let's not use the ban report format that everyone else uses because for some reason when someone puts up a ban report they have to DOX the person getting banned. Great excuse!

 

In all seriousness, it's as easy as putting an application/report up on the forums with the player's username and reason for being banned along with the expiry date of said ban. GM's shouldn't be allowed to ban without filing a ban report first.

 

If you were saying the ban reports could be copied into a public forum without personal information, then that would certainly be a benefit to everybody. The issue is that filling out two forms and only leaving the evidence/personal info in one could take a long time. This makes it difficult for Game Mods who are sifting through this information to not make the mistake of accidentally (due to laziness or human error) leaving in the info or incriminating evidence.

 

A player's ban should be of their own concern, it is not the business of others to know about the ban unless said player wants to tell them. In most dumps of screenshots there is incriminating text as well as IP Addresses of players and a link to their record, this record should only be available to the person responsible for the ban. Not only does this also make GMs unwilling to do bans unless "absolutely necessary", and even then never -- it is a security risk for the players involved or a breach of privacy.

 

We shouldn't be putting more irredeemable systems in place that do nothing but increase the possibility of error, laziness or use of language that can be disrespectful to the player, and entirely justified by the Game Moderator responsible for it due to the lack of oversight that comes from working on a Minecraft server. I hate to say that it isn't feasible, but if it were we'd have done it by now.

 

EDIT: If you mean the ban report format everybody has access to, that would make an incredibly poor ban log.

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Virgin Treshure cucked by Chad 13 year olds.

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I'd rather see staff with balls to deal with shitz rasther then turning a blind eye to abuse.

 

You loose your good people when you allow the lazy asses to slide by, not dealing with the big problems and telling players and vocal players no means no and deal with it.

 

 LOT falls on the players and their expectations that glare some sorta godsend and can't ever fuckup. Try dealing with multiple nation leaders in the middle of a raids where the life of one is at stake and your choice okn what goes could detirmine the next world war on lotc

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5 hours ago, Veist said:

 

 

 

EDIT: If you mean the ban report format everybody has access to, that would make an incredibly poor ban log.

 

That is exactly the format I'm talking about. No personal info or anything, they have to file an actual ban report and accept it on the spot, period. This is so people know the player is banned and why they were banned with evidence and proof of attempts at fixing the issue being logged by the GM as if it were an actual ban report. This is simple and should be done regardless of any systems in place, this isn't a police service, it's game moderation so let's stop treating GM's like police officers. :L

4 hours ago, Hiebe said:

I'd rather see staff with balls to deal with shitz rasther then turning a blind eye to abuse.

 

You loose your good people when you allow the lazy asses to slide by, not dealing with the big problems and telling players and vocal players no means no and deal with it.

 

 LOT falls on the players and their expectations that glare some sorta godsend and can't ever fuckup. Try dealing with multiple nation leaders in the middle of a raids where the life of one is at stake and your choice okn what goes could detirmine the next world war on lotc

 

The solution is for GM's to stop giving a damn, if the player is in the wrong then punish them. Do things by the book regardless of who is being spoken about. Usually, in the case of nation leaders they're all in the wrong and therefore should all be punished, even if it's just a kick or slap. Heck, I'd be punishing nation leaders that instigate the other side. It's very telling when the people playing the victims are telling you to ban the "rule breakers" when they themselves aren't so innocent.

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On 1/30/2018 at 11:17 PM, drfate786 said:

In all seriousness, it's as easy as putting an application/report up on the forums with the player's username and reason for being banned along with the expiry date of said ban. GM's shouldn't be allowed to ban without filing a ban report first.

2

 

We are actually required after every server ban to file a report which includes the collected evidence. We don't just ban people in-game and not follow it up with any paperwork. Server bans are communicated amongst the involved party of the player and moderation team, not the player, moderation team, and server player base. Hence the closed door policy.

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15 minutes ago, Fireheart said:

 

We are actually required after every server ban to file a report which includes the collected evidence. We don't just ban people in-game and not follow it up with any paperwork. Server bans are communicated amongst the involved party of the player and moderation team, not the player, moderation team, and server player base. Hence the closed door policy.

 

I think its good to do that in the long run, the purpose of a ban is to both punish a player for doing something wrong and provide them with the opportunity to improve in the future; not to shame them publicly. Thats also why Ban messages only go out to staff when it happens. Really what happens in a moderation situation should always be between the player and the moderator, when you add in the opinion of everyone in the community you sully the process and remove any real chance that the player will learn from their mistake.

 

11 hours ago, drfate786 said:

The solution is for GM's to stop giving a damn, if the player is in the wrong then punish them. Do things by the book regardless of who is being spoken about. Usually, in the case of nation leaders they're all in the wrong and therefore should all be punished, even if it's just a kick or slap. Heck, I'd be punishing nation leaders that instigate the other side. It's very telling when the people playing the victims are telling you to ban the "rule breakers" when they themselves aren't so innocent.

 

Not every situation is a cookie cutter incident, in fact very rarely will you find a situation that is. The mark of a good moderator is one that knows both the rules and how to apply them, and part of that is knowing that some situations require a different approach and that some punishments will be more effective than others depending on the person.

 

That being said, I don't always agree with how the GMs make decisions, but to go to a cookie cutter one size fits all style of moderation it will get worse not better. The real solution if anything is to encourage gms to stray further from the rules, develop a deeper understanding of their community, and make an effort to always give the most effective punishment for breaking the rules.

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20 hours ago, dogbew said:

 

I think its good to do that in the long run, the purpose of a ban is to both punish a player for doing something wrong and provide them with the opportunity to improve in the future; not to shame them publicly. Thats also why Ban messages only go out to staff when it happens. Really what happens in a moderation situation should always be between the player and the moderator, when you add in the opinion of everyone in the community you sully the process and remove any real chance that the player will learn from their mistake.

 

 

Not every situation is a cookie cutter incident, in fact very rarely will you find a situation that is. The mark of a good moderator is one that knows both the rules and how to apply them, and part of that is knowing that some situations require a different approach and that some punishments will be more effective than others depending on the person.

 

That being said, I don't always agree with how the GMs make decisions, but to go to a cookie cutter one size fits all style of moderation it will get worse not better. The real solution if anything is to encourage gms to stray further from the rules, develop a deeper understanding of their community, and make an effort to always give the most effective punishment for breaking the rules.

 

No, just no. What you just described in the underlined statement is the definition of GM bias. The GM MUST  follow the rules as they're written and must hand out the same punishment for every player based on the rule(s) broken and how many times said rule was broken. There's no special exceptions and no special bans, the moment we start handing out varying bans is the moment we start being lenient and therefore bias. A forum team director should know this and shouldn't suggest moderators to stray from the rules. You're basically saying that we should ban people who didn't break any rules and be biased while we're at it. Unacceptable.

 

 

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1 hour ago, drfate786 said:

 

No, just no. What you just described in the underlined statement is the definition of GM bias. The GM MUST  follow the rules as they're written and must hand out the same punishment for every player based on the rule(s) broken and how many times said rule was broken. There's no special exceptions and no special bans, the moment we start handing out varying bans is the moment we start being lenient and therefore bias. A forum team director should know this and shouldn't suggest moderators to stray from the rules. You're basically saying that we should ban people who didn't break any rules and be biased while we're at it. Unacceptable.

 

 

 

When people talk about GM bias theyre refering to a moderator making a decision based on their own personal investment; not GMs straying from the rules to make more effective punishments. 

 

Obviously that exists within reason, but i think to say that "the moment we start handing out varying bans is the moment we start being lenient and therefore bias." shows a pretty narrow perspective, not every situation in moderation is black and white. To treat it that way would be the a travesty, that being a misappropriation of justice.

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15 hours ago, dogbew said:

 

When people talk about GM bias theyre refering to a moderator making a decision based on their own personal investment; not GMs straying from the rules to make more effective punishments. 

 

Obviously that exists within reason, but i think to say that "the moment we start handing out varying bans is the moment we start being lenient and therefore bias." shows a pretty narrow perspective, not every situation in moderation is black and white. To treat it that way would be the a travesty, that being a misappropriation of justice.

 

You don't know how justice works do you? Justice is blind, it IS black and white. If you ever have to do jury duty or if you ever get a job within the legal system you will learn quite quickly that laws and punishments are written in stone with the Jury+Judge deciding whether the person is guilty or not. In LoTC's case, the system should be even more black and white as it's not a legal system. It's not a travesty to be devoid of emotion/personal thought when dishing out bans, it's doing the job properly.

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9 hours ago, drfate786 said:

 

You don't know how justice works do you? Justice is blind, it IS black and white. If you ever have to do jury duty or if you ever get a job within the legal system you will learn quite quickly that laws and punishments are written in stone with the Jury+Judge deciding whether the person is guilty or not. In LoTC's case, the system should be even more black and white as it's not a legal system. It's not a travesty to be devoid of emotion/personal thought when dishing out bans, it's doing the job properly.

lmao you actually have no idea what you're talking about

 

a lot of cases in the US that are brought to the Supreme Court are not black and white. why do you think it takes so long for the SCOTUS to come to a decision on every case that is brought to them

 

r/iamverysmart

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22 hours ago, Kaldwin said:

lmao you actually have no idea what you're talking about

 

a lot of cases in the US that are brought to the Supreme Court are not black and white. why do you think it takes so long for the SCOTUS to come to a decision on every case that is brought to them

 

r/iamverysmart

 

That is the supreme court, we are not talking about the supreme court.

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I guarantee that if mods are required to publicly post why they banned someone along with all their evidence, ridiculous bans and target bans will probably be removed entirely. I was victim of target bans from mods, when pressed by people to provide evidence they simply didn't have any. 

 

But this wouldn't be a new thing, when the server first started mods publicly posted threads on people that were banned and gave the reasons for it. When they stopped doing that, it opened the door for very shady bans and bad moderation on the server, which has now continued for 6 years and shows no signs of stopping because it will take 10 more seconds of work and will actually open people up to scrutiny instead of massaging their ego in privacy.

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9 hours ago, Fyrste said:

I guarantee that if mods are required to publicly post why they banned someone along with all their evidence, ridiculous bans and target bans will probably be removed entirely.

I don't know about anyone else but I personally don't want to be publicly shamed for my bans unless I choose to tell people. You aren't catching biased/bad GMs you're just publicly shaming and outing people in a way that will enable the entire community to be toxic towards them if they don't like them. The way people acted when the server first started was also 10000 times different from how they are today. Go look at people from 2011/2012's post history from then and compare that to how they act now. We've all changed and the server has changed for good reason.

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