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[✗] Satyr Rewrite's Re-write


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6 minutes ago, Ark_Ender said:

I really like this lore, and would be interested in playing one myself. As for all the talk of cliches, it's fantasy... it's all cliches by this point. The whole human-elf-dwarf-orc thing is the foundational cliche of the fantasy genre. I don't think being 'cliche' has any impact on how fun or meaningful the rp of a race is. It's different from any of the playable creatures we have, as far as I know, and it's got an interesting twist on nature-y type rp. Plus, from what I've seen, they play well into at least a few of the towns around the server, and could add a bit of diversity and interesting rp to the server as a whole. 

I agree with this, Its not as if they are wanting to make a creature for the sake of harming/causing grief to other players. Im a big advocate in letting people play what they enjoy doing in RP - the group who play the satyr's and the groups who associate with them simply want to keep them around because they are fun and interesting and add some flavor to the RP which makes it fun. 

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A creature whose same functions can be accomplished by a descendant is a bad one. Making these creatures playable will lead to people running around Atlas playing them as Descendants versus something that should create and drive roleplay for everyone else. It seems that people have forgotten the point of creatures. You've literally created this lore to make them as much like Descendants as you can. You admitted that the Xoatl lore was ****, IDK why you think that this lore is any different. It's not a particularly original idea, and frankly I don't like this whole mating bit as we both know what that encourages. ERP and shitty slice of life roleplay.

On 5/2/2018 at 8:02 AM, TheCritsyBear said:

Please give me my Satyr back, they were a unique creature that fit well with a creature-ly fae dynamic but allowed people to RP freely.

Unique? A descendant with horns and the lower body of a goat is unique?

On 5/2/2018 at 9:26 AM, Lucerys said:

If that bothers you, then might as well start complaining about khas, hou-zis and similiar partial creatures?

We DO complain about those **** creatures, we want them shelved as well.

1 hour ago, Chickadee said:

A lot of effort was put into the rewrite of the lore which in itself shows the interest of the player group to continue playing them.

Agree to disagree. Better written creatures than this have been rejected.

1 hour ago, Chickadee said:

makes LOTC less generic like every other server that has the Typical "Orc, Human, Elf, Dwarf" thing going on.

That isn't an argument, and I'm sick of people criticizing the Orc, Human, Elf, Dwarf races. There is a reason why each of those four races are so prevalent across literature and pop-culture. They've clearly resonated and all in all, almost any culture we can think of can be associated with one of the races. Satyrs would be like Elves for example. Please stop trying to dilute the already small amount of normal descendant roleplayers with more special snowflakes.

1 hour ago, Ark_Ender said:

I don't think being 'cliche' has any impact on how fun or meaningful the rp of a race is. It's different from any of the playable creatures we have, as far as I know, and it's got an interesting twist on nature-y type rp.

Except it really does impact how fun or meaningful roleplay is....What would be the point of roleplaying through a story if you know everything that was going to happen and what to expect? And I'll say it again, we don't have enough people playing descendant races, we don't need another reskin of them. You can accomplish anything you'd want to on a Satyr on an Elf.

 

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1 hour ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

 

have you ever roleplayed with any of the satyr, or even seen one

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8 minutes ago, TheCritsyBear said:

have you ever roleplayed with any of the satyr, or even seen one

Yes, I've seen two running around the Dominion. Literally nothing of any note occurred. In one instance I saw them discussing something with a friend, in the other they were reacting to an injured person being brought to the clinic. What's your point?

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1 hour ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Yes, I've seen two running around the Dominion. Literally nothing of any note occurred. In one instance I saw them discussing something with a friend, in the other they were reacting to an injured person being brought to the clinic. What's your point?

Because you're acting as though you know the kind of environment they create, like you've witnessed what sort of roleplay they have, and like you understand the intrinsic qualities that playing them contains-- When in reality, you've only actually seen them twice and somehow pass judgment like you've seen it happen before.

 

The satyr work. I'm somebody-- A normal descendant roleplayer, and leader of a community of normal descendant roleplayers, human no less-- who has been exposed to them way more than most, because they're important to my community's culture, as the most populous fae creature.

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11 minutes ago, TheCritsyBear said:

Because you're acting as though you know the kind of environment they create, like you've witnessed what sort of roleplay they have, and like you understand the intrinsic qualities that playing them contains-- When in reality, you've only actually seen them twice and somehow pass judgment like you've seen it happen before.

 

The satyr work. I'm somebody-- A normal descendant roleplayer, and leader of a community of normal descendant roleplayers, human no less-- who has been exposed to them way more than most, because they're important to my community's culture, as the most populous fae creature.

I don't need to intimately Roleplay with ever single Satyr on the server to make a critique of the lore. If we allowed your argument, we wouldn't have the basis for denying any lore without first implementing them and seeing how they functioned. Just because this creature might benefit your community doesn't mean it would be overall healthy for the server. Sorry, didn't answer any of the concerns expressed in my original post anyway.

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okay, fine, I'll go through and nitpick everything you say

3 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Unique? A descendant with horns and the lower body of a goat is unique?

Looking at it from an objective standpoint? No culture, spirituality, community or whatever put into focus, as stated here? Yes, it's about as unique as "short people with beards" or "robots but made with magic instead of electricity". In terms like this, "people with goat parts" is about the same quality.

3 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Agree to disagree. Better written creatures than this have been rejected.

Some things require a specific frame of reference. Compare satyr to the original ghost lore-- They're pretty much the same quality, and ghosts aren't exactly a unique creature-- Yet, here they are completely spared from the great shelving ( not complaining, because it's one of the few non-descendant things I play ) because their place on the server can't be easily filled by something else. Compare satyr to, say, rewrite #4 ( I think? ) of the dark-based pseudo-druidism that people keep trying to get accepted but fail? Satyr start to look like an amateur wrote them, yet it keeps getting denied because people look at it and say, "yeah druidism does all of this already" without taking any closer look to see that isn't true at all.

3 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

We DO complain about those **** creatures, we want them shelved as well.

This feels more like a personal opinion rather than an objective argument; I'd imagine you consider furries to be deviants and people who ERP to be predators, as well.

3 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Please stop trying to dilute the already small amount of normal descendant roleplayers with more special snowflakes.

ALREADY SMALL AMOUNT OF NORMAL DESCENDANTS?

 

WHAT?

 

I don't know where you're roleplaying at, but where I am we have about two creatures total actively living in the community doing their special stuff behind closed doors. The overwhelming majority are normal descendants. You mentioned the dominion before, and the only creatures I ever see when I go there are one or two werewolves and occasionally a few fae creatures, like satyr or cervitaur-- All of which have a cultural prerogative to be in their community.

3 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Except it really does impact how fun or meaningful roleplay is...

Greedy dwarves? Check. Do they live in big impossible mountain fortress-cities? Do they speak in scottish accents?

Nature-based elf culture? Check. Do the hate orcs? Do they fight with an arcane-and-purity-based elf culture?

Literally the holy roman empire transported to a fantasy universe? Check. Do they hate other races? Do they hunt down witchcraft?

Actual christianity? Check. Do they keep retinues of crusaders? Do they play politics?

Muslim tribes? Check.

Orcish horde? Check.

bla bla bla

 

Basically what I'm getting at here is that some of the most popular things on the server are based entirely on recycled cliches and reused tropes; Literally, all of those things are based on something that has already been done to heck and back. The most popular things are spawned from the most overused stock. And here you are nitpicking goat-people who even go as far as taking deliberate liberties to step away from their source folklore.

 

I'm not saying any of what I listed is bad, I'm giving examples of heavily cliche'd ( more cliche'd than goat-people ) things do not lower the quality of RP at all.

3 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

And I'll say it again, we don't have enough people playing descendant races, we don't need another reskin of them. You can accomplish anything you'd want to on a Satyr on an Elf.

I know I kind of dismissed this argument earlier but it's because you mentioned it twice, so I knew I'd be able to go back and discuss it in more detail.

 

It would seem that your fear is that the community of normal dudes will be diluted by the presence of an option for more unique creatures, but if you take a look around that is very far from the case, even before the creatures were shelved. Very few people play these things as their main characters, usually using them to chill with friends, play something that offers something they can't find somewhere else for whatever reason, or have a character with a specific personality type or experience that normally wouldn't be reasonable for a normal character. Furthermore, way fewer people than you seem to think even do that much. Saying "normal people are already rare enough!" is simply untrue, objectively. But, there'll probably never be a study or anything to prove either of us right, so let's move past it.

 

My primary argument here is why would you dictate what a person is allowed to RP? If they want to RP something outlandish simply for the sake of being special, who are you to deny them that? Even if it were the case that the majority of these people just want to be something special, they would just find another way to make their characters super crazy anyway, like schizophrenia or multicolored eyes or multi-toned skin or something.

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9 minutes ago, TheCritsyBear said:

My primary argument here is why would you dictate what a person is allowed to RP? If they want to RP something outlandish simply for the sake of being special, who are you to deny them that? Even if it were the case that the majority of these people just want to be something special, they would just find another way to make their characters super crazy anyway, like schizophrenia or multicolored eyes or multi-toned skin or something.

This was the endpoint of my opinion too- as long as they aren’t being created for the sake of causing grief to other players, which they are not, then people should be encouraged to play what they enjoy and have a good time. Boxing something out that isn’t particularly harmful because you would rather someone play another human or elf just because that’s what you want to play (which there is literally no short supply of) is distasteful to me. People come here to relax and rp- fluidity should be tolerated if not celebrated. Personally, I play a descendant as my main, I wouldn’t ever play a satyr, but do I want to rp with them and get to know their lore/what they bring to the table as a perspective of a different creature? Yes!!

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2 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Yes, I've seen two running around the Dominion. Literally nothing of any note occurred. In one instance I saw them discussing something with a friend, in the other they were reacting to an injured person being brought to the clinic. What's your point?

I mean... what did you expect? They're creatures, sure, and not descendants, but does that mean that every single thing they do can't be the same as what a descendant might? For instance, talking to a friend, or bringing someone to a clinic? It wouldn't make sense to assume this is all these people are doing. You caught them in a city, rping with some friends. That's never the only thing people do, but it's also something everyone should be allowed to, without calling into question whether or not they're contributing. At least from what I've seen of satyr rp, they're actually pretty interesting, and do bring something fun to the table. If that wasn't the case in the two encounters you had with them, I'm genuinely sorry, it must have just been a scenario where their differences didn't shine as much as they might have. 

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I was writing a response and it got deleted. Can't be arsed to rewrite it. Satyrs add nothing and should remain shelved, if LT can't spot the inconsistencies in their argument, oh well.

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3 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

I was writing a response and it got deleted. Can't be arsed to rewrite it. Satyrs add nothing and should remain shelved, if LT can't spot the inconsistencies in their argument, oh well.

If you feel so passionately about a community of people not having their thing, you should be able to muster the effort to try again. Re-typing things can sometimes help you think of arguments you hadn't before.

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Just now, TheCritsyBear said:

If you feel so passionately about a community of people not having their thing, you should be able to muster the effort to try again. Re-typing things can sometimes help you think of arguments you hadn't before.

I've had this discussion regarding creatures so many times before and I really can't stand rehashing the same points over again. If we allow Satyrs, they'll be back in the same spot they were when they were put shelved in like a month or so. We have so many creatures and races that can accomplish the same thing as these Satyrs, and the lore isn't very well written. There is no reason for it to be accepted other then the fact that you and a few other people want to roleplay with them, despite the fact that accepting them will be a negative thing for the overall quality of roleplay on the server. I've said my piece.

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My question then, if so many of the same things can be accomplished by a descendant race, why does it matter? If an elf or a satyr can do pretty much the same things (which isn't the point in the slightest, but since you keep pushing that assumption, I'm addressing it) why does it matter if a few people do those things as a satyr instead of an elf? Who does it actually hurt? That being said, as far as I know, most of the satyr players would actually be in more human-dominated cultures, and so would fill a different role, as well as bringing whatever overlapping roles you are seeing into a culture that otherwise would lack them completely. 

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7 minutes ago, Ark_Ender said:

-snip-

It matters because Creatures are supposed to provide and create new/interesting Roleplay as a whole. Do you know what the concept of creature bloat is? Things such as Satyrs and other creatures cease to be interesting or good once half the server is filled with them, and they are roleplayed like an average character. Have you ever Roleplayed with a skeletal knight that throws around insults like they're in an action movie flick? It's utterly ridiculous. If we allow some players to slice of life and do bullshit with their satyrs, than where are we going to draw the arbitrary line and stop others from doing it? This is an issue that has been discussed and agreed upon by much of the server, hence Satyrs being shelved in the first place. You're new and don't understand the intricacies and complexities of the server. Argument breaks down like this.

 

A) Too many creatures on the server are a bad thing.

B) We should shelf inactive creatures and only accept creatures that have a real reason for existing.

 

A is true and has been proven. B is true because A is true. The question is whether Satyrs fit that qualification, and the honest answer is no.

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I mean... as someone who's admined for servers in the past, and knows a bit more than I think you're presuming about this server, this specific example isn't going to be nearly the issue you seem to expect. I've dealt with over-saturation of playable races before, and I know the dangers it poses... but when fully half the server is humans, another quarter is elves of some kind, and nearly all of the rest is orcs and dwarves... and you factor in having easily 80+ player average, which is quite high, diversity has much less of an impact than it might seem. I'm honestly somewhat surprised I haven't seen more pushing for new things to play, given the distribution of the current races. Anyway, my point is that, as we've been stating before, satyrs have given us an interesting and unique rp experience thus far, and that even if ten of twelve people play them, it won't really have much impact on the overall percentage of who plays what on a server-wide scale. 

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