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[Completed][Completed] Holy Healing Is Bad


GodEmperorFlam
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16 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Oh no, it's very relevant. There are dishonest and mean-spirited players that absolutely will use any permanent injury to **** with players. It's not controversial and people have openly discussed how to ruin player bases. When talking about nerfing a magic into the dirt to allow for permanent injury, yeah it becomes very relevant.  Also

There are dishonest and mean-spirited players that absolutely will avoid any roleplay consequences to **** with players. It's not controversial and people have openly discussed how they're not willing to do any Roleplay that they don't like. When talking about keeping a broken magic the same to allow for ignoring all roleplay consequences, yeah it becomes very relevant.

 

See what I did there? I'll repeat what I said, if someone is doing something without Roleplay reasoning behind it, report it and it'll be dealt with. If they have a valid Roleplay reason, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. Regardless of what you might think the person behind the character might be feeling.

16 minutes ago, zaezae said:

is an argument that the magic allows for a mode of roleplay that someone doesn't want to see on the server. Not that the magic takes the fun away from other people unfairly but rather it allows people to simply engage in a certain kind of roleplay that they don't like. 

Seeing someone use Holy Magic to circumvent the attempts my character did to deal with them does take away my fun though....Seeing someone ignore all consequences in an event that I am also involved in, and having that effect the overall story of the event does take away from my fun though...

16 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Discussions like this almost all are based on an appeal to preference.

Why are you implying that this is wrong? Every single discussion ever is based on preference.

16 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Preference in the /way/ that other people roleplay.

You don't like ERP? You don't like overly gruesome RP? You don't like powergaming? Those are all prefrences regarding the /way/ that other people Roleplay. This isn't an argument.

16 minutes ago, zaezae said:

I am entirely convinced that some people approach the discussion dishonestly because they aren't interested in making magic in general better for all parties involved and instead want to shape all roleplay on the server be conducted to their liking.

What does this even mean? Who is approaching this discussion dishonestly? If you're referring to me, I'll ask you like I asked the other people who quoted me on the thread, where? I'm waiting to see it. Unless you can point to something specifically, you can't say that anyone is approaching something dishonestly.

16 minutes ago, zaezae said:

. I don't like military RP. I don't like war RP. I don't like guard RP. I don't like raid RP. However, I will not ever advocate that these things be removed, that lore be adjusted so that I never have to witness someone else having this RP, or that rules be made in a way to prevent this RP.

Those are specific genre's of RP. Let me clarify.

 

I DON'T MIND MAGIC HEAL RP!

I'm not advocating for its removal necessarily. I and Flam, and everyone else who has agreed with us, is advocating for the fix of a shitty system. I've yet to see proper arguments for as to why the system isn't ****, when there have been plenty of arguments as to why it is.

16 minutes ago, zaezae said:

This is not true, almost at all, when discussions shift to magic, family RP, fantasy, arguably elven, or anything on this side of the server. It's "I don't like this kind of roleplay and we should just straight up remove all of it." 

If anyone in this thread has done that, quote them and take it up with them. Don't immediately dismiss all critiques of a magic because some people do this.

16 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Also chopping up posts into bite size pieces isn't good form. It separates sentences which might make more sense in the greater context. Sometimes this is done out of dishonesty or just a choice of form.

If I or anyone does this out of context, call them out for it. Sure it CAN be taken out of context, I expressly avoided doing so.

16 minutes ago, zaezae said:

But considering that you tried to make some petty "Ha, gotcha sucker!" moment because I didn't feel like scrolling up to use the quote button at the top fo the page, I have no idea about your particular intentions. 

Sorry what? If you can't name something specific, don't accuse me of it to take away from any of the arguments I made.

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Yeah, I see you committed whataboutery. You didn't address the fact that there absolutely are players who would love nothing more than to use permanent injury to screw with other players. Oh, and you can't say earlier in the thread that using reports is ineffective because players won't use it when something affects them directly and then turn around and use the exact same argument that you criticized earlier. Someone getting healed doesn't take your fun away. At all. This is just stupid. What, if you cut me and I get a band-aid, does that ruin your fun? If you poison someone but they get an antidote, does that ruin your fun? No, it doesn't. If you cut someone's arm off and they go to a cleric and, over several sessions, get it healed like I did when my character lost a hand for an OOC month, that isn't dodging consequences. It isn't. Just because someone can rectify a problem doesn't mean the problem didn't happen. Avoiding consequences is ignoring an injury, not getting it healed. You've engaged in this hyperbole throughout the entire thread that getting healed is exactly the same as not being injured in the first place. It isn't. Your actual problem is that you think that the consequence isn't severe enough. That's fair, but saying that there is no consequence is just wrong on it's face. 

 

But you know what? none of this is relevant because I'm not defending holy magic at all. I'm trying to say to readers why I think some people are just "remove remove". And since this debate very well could be used or influence a policy decision, yeah, the intention of people who post is entirely relevant. 

 

As far as when you touch on my preference statements, this is why you shouldn't split someone's response because I explained why making an argument entirely based off of your personal preference isn't appropriate because LotC welcomes several different kinds of roleplay and players. 

 

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You don't like ERP? You don't like overly gruesome RP? You don't like powergaming? Those are all prefrences regarding the /way/ that other people Roleplay. This isn't an argument.

 

 

Complete bullshit. This server has children that play on it. Powergaming is incorrect roleplay. Also there is established lore and vague theme just in case you try to pull those arguments to make a false equivalency. 

 

Also, no I'm not talking about you. I never said you. You made this about you. If you need proof then look at some of the responses in this very thread. "Durr, it's **** remove it". And why would I quote people I think are being dishonest? They're dishonest, there's nothing to gain from that. I'm projecting to anyone reading this thread about what I think might be going on with some people in this thread. I am not here to do call-outs and I'm not here to totally pwn doods.

 

There are people who will use anything they can to force people to roleplay the way they want. This should be pointed out to people. Just like people will argue for certain war rules to make rp more palatable for themselves rather than have opinions based on rather or not the war rules are fair to everyone. 

 

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Sorry what? If you can't name something specific, don't accuse me of it to take away from any of the arguments I made.

 

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I think people should be less zealously devoted to forcing people to rp to their personal standard. If you think their rp is "hug box" and bad good for you, it's a video game not an ivy league acting school. 

 

Only thing I want enforcement on consequences wise is preventing a character killed from reentering the story arc they died in

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37 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Yeah, I see you committed whataboutery. You didn't address the fact that there absolutely are players who would love nothing more than to use permanent injury to screw with other players.

Mhm, right. Whataboutery. No one is obligated to believe you if you don't have any evidence for it, especially when it's a claim like this.

37 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Oh, and you can't say earlier in the thread that using reports is ineffective because players won't use it when something affects them directly and then turn around and use the exact same argument that you criticized earlier.

That's not at all what I said buddy. I never said reports are ineffective, I said telling people to report issues such as someone not properly RPing how they heal themselves wouldn't be effective. It's undeniable that people don't report powergaming nearly as much as they should, doesn't mean that the reports are not effective. Take the ban report that I made for example. Everyone told me not to go through with it, that my actions would change nothing. Clearly that wasn't the case. Your point is invalid.

37 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Someone getting healed doesn't take your fun away. At all. This is just stupid.

If I'm Roleplaying a conflict with someone, and I cut their sword arm off to settle the issue, and then they go get it healed in an instant by some Ascended or Cleric with no real problems as a result of what happened, and than proceed to RP with me, that definitely takes away my fun. There are a plethora of other cases I can bring up. Magic that is too powerful ruins any stakes that there might be, there is a reason why we temper it and keep it balanced.

37 minutes ago, zaezae said:

What, if you cut me and I get a band-aid, does that ruin your fun? If you poison someone but they get an antidote, does that ruin your fun? No, it doesn't. If you cut someone's arm off and they go to a cleric and, over several sessions, get it healed like I did when my character lost a hand for an OOC month, that isn't dodging consequences. It isn't.

Implying that's what happens? Current healing is the exact opposite of that mate. I'll repeat it, I'm not against healing magic, I'm against the way that it is implemented.

37 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Just because someone can rectify a problem doesn't mean the problem didn't happen.

Context is important. It's how the problem is rectified that matters.

37 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Avoiding consequences is ignoring an injury, not getting it healed. You've engaged in this hyperbole throughout the entire thread that getting healed is exactly the same as not being injured in the first place.

Because when Clerics and Ascended can literally make your injury go away as if nothing happened with no real cost or RP to themselves, than yeah, it pretty much is the same as not being injured in the first place.

37 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Your actual problem is that you think that the consequence isn't severe enough. That's fair, but saying that there is no consequence is just wrong on it's face. 

Sure, all my points are still valid however. My bad, didn't mean to misuse the word/phrase, I think everyone got my general idea though.

37 minutes ago, zaezae said:

As far as when you touch on my preference statements, this is why you shouldn't split someone's response because I explained why making an argument entirely based off of your personal preference isn't appropriate because LotC welcomes several different kinds of roleplay and players.  

 

Quote

You don't like ERP? You don't like overly gruesome RP? You don't like powergaming? Those are all prefrences regarding the /way/ that other people Roleplay. This isn't an argument.

 

 

Complete bullshit. This server has children that play on it. Powergaming is incorrect roleplay. Also there is established lore and vague theme just in case you try to pull those arguments to make a false equivalency. 

Fair enough, I can admit that those were poor examples. I'll rephrase,

 

Just because some players prefer a specific kind of roleplay, doesn't mean that the rest of the server has to bend over backward to facilitate it.

 

Every argument in the end is going to come down to how people prefer things. The Lore Team doesn't allow certain creatures to be accepted because they don't think that the Roleplay it'll create will be to their preference. The Administration punishes certain people because they would prefer different actions from them. Everything comes down to a preference. Some people prefer not to ever kill their character under any circumstance and dislike any conflict roleplay outside of their slice of life. Is that a good preference? That's when you start getting into subjective territory which isn't something that can be debated. I and many others however, don't think that this kind of Roleplay is good for the server.

37 minutes ago, zaezae said:

Also, no I'm not talking about you. I never said you. You made this about you. If you need proof then look at some of the responses in this very thread. "Durr, it's **** remove it".

Those responses are equivalent to people that blatantly overlook any complaints against their magic and refuse to branch out their Roleplay.

37 minutes ago, zaezae said:

And why would I quote people I think are being dishonest? They're dishonest, there's nothing to gain from that. I'm projecting to anyone reading this thread about what I think might be going on with some people in this thread. I am not here to do call-outs and I'm not here to totally pwn doods.

This is a discussion thread regarding Holy Magic. If someone is making dishonest arguments one way or the other, it's the literal point of the thread to call someone out to expose this dishonesty. You could be 100% right about everything, we won't know if you don't elaborate and explain why you're right and others are wrong however.

37 minutes ago, zaezae said:

There are people who will use anything they can to force people to roleplay the way they want. This should be pointed out to people. Just like people will argue for certain war rules to make rp more palatable for themselves rather than have opinions based on rather or not the war rules are fair to everyone. 

Like advocates of holy roleplay and slice of lifer? This statement cuts both ways.

Edited by ChonGojDragonski
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There's been a lot to read over. Plenty of fighting, and if I'd planned on making a reply from the start, I would have been collecting quotes the whole while. Honestly, I glossed over some of the longer responses, because it's late and I've no desire to read through 20+ quotes and responses in one post on this thread. If it's any indication of my mental state right now, I just had trouble finding the plus key. Horrid, I know.


Now, I'm going to start by saying I'm in the grimdark RP crowd. My characters have PK'ed on RP deaths, as of about early Vailor. This has lead to some good RP on my part and some abysmal RP on my part, which I apologized for when called out for it and corrected in subsequent emotes. Just ask Skylez, NJBB or Bromadan about one time they fought me. I've had characters lose hands, eyes, fingers, ears, take horrible scars and just generally severe damage. I've been healed in character through numerous different methods, some by myself, some from other people.

 

Over my time RP'ing, which isn't as long as some people but still isn't anything to sniff at, I've experienced and performed both mundane and alchemical healing roleplay. I've performed surgery IC on several people, and have generally received a handful of compliments on the quality and enjoyment of the healing. My characters have been healed by mundane means, alchemy, some absurd time magic, and a bit of ascended magic. I took part in the Mordskov eventline, being one of the players that helped build it up, flesh out ideas, and roleplay creatures.

 

With my bona fides established, on to the actual discussion.

 

Grimdark RP

 

The argument for PK on RP death has come up with it, and I've played both sides in the argument. PK'ing on an RP death is done, although not necessarily seen as death posts aren't always thrown up. Although few people most likely know it, Skylez has PK'ed at least two characters recently, a darkstalker and a young elf. I'm not keen on people PK'ing on death, because I believe the server would either devolve into just permanent slice of life and tavern RP, with no one wanting to go out and engage in an sort of RP conflict, or all conflict resorting to solely PvP. I'm bad at PvP, so it's a bit unpleasant to me. Sometimes, it even gets me quite tilted. I also believe it would stymie a good bit of character development, as most characters wouldn't live long enough in the current state of RP to craft any significant story. The people that would be affected by their death wouldn't last much longer, and unless you just turtled up or went only for events, story probably wouldn't develop, as CRP between players is hit or miss on survival and quality.

 

Poor RP

 

I've experienced a fair number of different mediums of RP. For the most part, provided the RP I have to interact with is of decent quality, I don't mind. And I do have low standards, where the only RP I generally dislike is meme RP or the minas or die RP done by most bandits on the server as a bare minimum to start PVP. The exception I make to this is when it breaks with what should fit with a creature. While I enjoyed the concept of Devirad, I disliked what it became. But there was a good bit of activity, so that was fun. Now, it's been brought up that the main issue with holy healing, according to it's defendants, is that the instances drawn up were cases of poor roleplayers. And while some people did bring up issuing player reports or ban reports in regards to powergaming, or contacting the LMs, the simple fact is no one wants to. They usually turn into an argument and degenerate into a toxic back and forth, ruining community cohesion. In some cases, proving the charge is difficult, should logs not be on hand or the actions performed only be able to be proven by a recording.

 

On the actual topic of holy healing, any sort of healing magic is usually absurdly good. The reasoning is simple, in that you can do anything provided you have the energy and the knowledge. The ability to remove crippling injuries is obviously beneficial. It can also be circumvented through other forms of roleplay, such as golemancy. And I do agree with several of the people who advocate for consequences in RP. If something happens to your character, it should either affect roleplay down the line, or should breed roleplay through dealing with this. While it's much easier to brush it off, than to try and RP a recovery or adaptation, especially if you don't know what you're RP'ing, the more quality RP, the better. Quality RP builds characters and their stories, and by the time their stories end, in the event they end, they should have grown. They can't do that if nothing happens to them. But, I don't believe a character should be rendered unplayable. A blind nugget might as well be dead, and once a character can no longer grow, what's the point of the character? Which is why I'm in favor of maimed characters being able to be healed, but not as it is now. At this point, it's essentially a reset button, with nothing to show for it and little development afterwards. Not even a scar, in most cases. 

 

Healing Adjustments

 

While nothing can be said for what changes have been made to the Ascended yet, and with nothing regarding the Paladins popping up, the focus of this lies in discussing the Clerics. What most appeals to me is numerous, in-depth sessions requiring healing of major or complex injuries. I say complex because, for example an eye, is a complex little organ. It involves numerous specialized cells, muscles, and tissues to perform it's job adequately. Mess up any one of these, and you might have a malfunctioning or entirely useless eye, which should then have to be removed and formed all over again. I'm also in favor of there being some sort of indication for a wound, and some sort of blow back for the healer.

 

Perhaps a scar might be left behind, perhaps the tissue wouldn't be as flexible or would be numb, insensate. It might grow cold quicker or be more easily injured. The only way to quickly grow a limb might be to reattach it, and then there might be nerve issues in the limb below that point, it might be stiffer or might suffer phantom pains, things of that sort.

As for blow back, while there is the issue with healers suffering exhaustion, given what I believe is an apparent bind between their healing and the soul of the person being healed, I think the healer should also feel the emotional trauma that came with that wound, and perhaps see a discoloration or marking on their own body of where the wound was.

 

The concept of faith being necessary is extremely interesting to me, and it's somewhat logically sound. Why should an Aengul extend it's help to someone that places no stock in them, that doesn't worship them or make any sort of offering to them? But, how would it be regulated? Perhaps the person simply has to pray as well. The healer could ask in OOC if their faith is genuine. Of course, they could easily lie, which is against the rules, but a player report wouldn't be necessary. Should it be found out, those who find out, should they be clerics, could simply emote Tahariae withdrawing their blessing from the person who was healed. Whatever magic was worked would sour, the injury in question turning gangrenous or simply reverting.

Edited by Sarcof
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@ChonGojDragonskiYour claim that Holy roleplay kills mudane healing is blatantly false. Allow me to produce citation:

 

In the Kingdom of Haense, we had an entire hospital with devoted mundane and alchemical roleplayers that would actively roleplay treating players who had been wounded. I myself witnessed roleplay such as people having their wounds sealed close, stitching, disinfecting and essentially the furthest you could go before your roleplay was considered too gory.

 

Mundane healing roleplay did die in Haense however. This was not a result of healing roleplay, as we had both @Farryn and @EternalSaturnroleplaying there at said time without any issue. In fact, it died as a result of ooc intrigue inciting conflict to a nation which otherwise didn’t warrant it according to the current war rules. Though that’s a different topic. Basically, when the previous Haense leadership decided to enact an exodus and leave the server, the hospital roleplayers went with them.

 

Farryn also pointed out that she used mundane healing prior to any attempt at applying healing roleplay, due to the fact healing magic takes time to conjure and apply. Situations where this doesn’t happen is once again a result of poor roleplay and powergaming, which happens in every form of roleplay.

 

The reason we fundamentally don’t have enough mundane healers is because people don’t want to roleplay them. People would rather roleplay a Knight, a mage, a peasant or even a noble. Who are we to accuse a magic of causing something that actively is the fault of the playerbase as a whole.

 

Also another point. PK clauses are bad. The idea that a character must be forcefully injured, mutilated and perm-killed takes away freedom of roleplay and literally allows the concept of OOC targeting to take a foothold. We know OOC targeting exists, so would you really want someone’s day to be ruined because another got a thrill out of removing his eyes from their sockets out of no where?

 

Ascended aren’t the only ones who get passive self-healing. Liches, darkstalkers, striga and shades also have the ability to heal and regenerate damage. As Ascended are meant to combat said creatures, it makes sense they would be granted similar gifts in order to effectively use their healing abilities and not be trumped by a dark creature that could reappear with their arm reattached within any given time.

 

Apologies for errors. Using mobile platform atm.

Edited by GildedDuke
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2 minutes ago, GildedDuke said:

Your claim that Holy roleplay kills mudane healing is blatantly false. Allow me to produce citation:

 

In the Kingdom of Haense, we had an entire hospital with devoted mundane and alchemical roleplayers that would actively roleplay treating players who had been wounded. I myself witnessed roleplay such as people having their wounded seated close, stitching, disinfecting and essentially the furthest you could go before your roleplay was considered too gory.

I never said Holy roleplay kills mundane healing mate. It's Holy Healing Roleplay that does that.

3 minutes ago, GildedDuke said:

Situations where this doesn’t happen is once again a result of poor roleplay and powergaming, which happens in every form of roleplay.

An Ascended taking on the injury of someone else and regenerating it isn't powergaming though, it literally isn't. That's why we're advocating for changes. Neither are Clerics who channel whatever Angel they're associated with to speed up recovery to a ridiculous degree.

18 minutes ago, GildedDuke said:

Also another point. PK clauses are bad. The idea that a character must be forcefully injured, mutilated and perm-killed takes away freedom of roleplay and literally allows the concept of OOC targeting to take a foothold. We know OOC targeting exists, so would you really want someone’s day to be ruined because another got a thrill out of removing his eyes from their sockets out of no where?

We're not discussing this, though I 100% disagree. Irrelevant.

19 minutes ago, GildedDuke said:

Ascended aren’t the only ones who get passive self-healing. Liches, darkstalkers, striga and shades also have the ability to heal and regenerate damage. As Ascended are meant to combat said creatures, it makes sense they would be granted similar gifts in order to effectively use their healing abilities and not be trumped by a dark creature that could reappear with their arm reattached within any given time.

The issue isn't necessarily with Ascended passive self-healing, the issue is how it functions with their heal Roleplay. We've covered why it's a problem so many times, please read through some of the responses and you'll see the very real complaints. Although Ascended self healing is still awful, that's another discussion.

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2 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

I never said Holy roleplay kills mundane healing mate. It's Holy Healing Roleplay that does that.

You’re taking this out of context and nitpicking. I clearly implied healing as the narrative of my response, something which you seem to have ignored. I also find it interesting you didn’t respond to my reference of Holy Healing users in Haense collaborating without issue of roleplay being killed. I also haven’t seen you produce any evidence to back your claims, whereas I have produced evidence to back mine.

2 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

An Ascended taking on the injury of someone else and regenerating it isn't powergaming though, it literally isn't. That's why we're advocating for changes. Neither are Clerics who channel whatever Angel they're associated with to speed up recovery to a ridiculous degree.

Again, you’re exploiting context. I wasn’t talking about self regeneration in the particular quote you responded to. Rather, I was talking about healing magic being applied to someone else. Instead of actively responding to this, you scribbled over it and branded my response as something else entirely. I made an explaination into why Holy Healing isn’t God’s revelation and why it isn’t perfecto in every given situation. Learn how to debate.

2 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

We're not discussing this, though I 100% disagree. Irrelevant.

Ah, but you were in fact the one who brought up this argument. As cited below:

8 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

TBH, everyone should PK on RP death but this is a different argument and people are way to attached to their mineman pixels to actually create quality dynamic roleplay, but at the very least roleplay out injuries properly.

Though I will give you the benefit of the doubt given as you did mention that this was a different argument. However, I find it interesting and painstakingly hilarious that you seek to say my response is irrelevant despite the fact it was a legitimate response to one of your own. Manipulating the argument and then taking a 180 turn just makes you look like a condescending fool and reduces your legitimacy to rubble.

2 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

The issue isn't necessarily with Ascended passive self-healing, the issue is how it functions with their heal Roleplay. We've covered why it's a problem so many times, please read through some of the responses and you'll see the very real complaints. Although Ascended self healing is still awful, that's another discussion.

Oh, I did read the responses, and you once again appear to have little to no justification into why you think this way, nor evidence to back your claims other than some steep hatred for healing. Ascended don’t regenerate like Deadpool or Wolverine for God’s sake. I made a point on how regeneration is a common occurrence in many kinds of magic. How am I meant to roleplay healing myself when I’m sitting casually in a deserted RP hub with no one there to respond or view my roleplay? Do I go to a nation where potentially the roleplay is hostile? Do I wander around searching for roleplay despite the fact I’m injured and trying to heal my wounds. If healing-regenerative roleplay is truly awful, why don’t you make an effort to inquire in roleplay with someone healing themselves and establish some context?

 

But hey, at least you responded properly to what I actually said this time. I’d prefer if you took time looking into context with every response you make. It would make having debates with you all the more interesting and fun.

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can be hurt by extreme supernatural means, can be healed by such as well. complaining about healing while also not even giving combat magic a look at how powerful it can be, but also how you can harm said person with these supernatural means just goes to show that if someone does four emotes of most evocations, they have enough power to seriously injure if not just kill nigh instantly, for this holy healing allows some nice fix backs, but in any case i do agree in needs a decent nerd still.

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I agree with @Gladuos on the bit where people straight up destroy other people's characters, I've seen too many cases of someone trying to permanently damage another person over a petty dispute. If people on this server knew how to properly escalate a fight, though? Yeah, holy healing would be ridiculous. 

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5 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Mhm, right. Whataboutery. No one is obligated to believe you if you don't have any evidence for it, especially when it's a claim like this.

That's not at all what I said buddy. I never said reports are ineffective, I said telling people to report issues such as someone not properly RPing how they heal themselves wouldn't be effective. It's undeniable that people don't report powergaming nearly as much as they should, doesn't mean that the reports are not effective. Take the ban report that I made for example. Everyone told me not to go through with it, that my actions would change nothing. Clearly that wasn't the case. Your point is invalid.

If I'm Roleplaying a conflict with someone, and I cut their sword arm off to settle the issue, and then they go get it healed in an instant by some Ascended or Cleric with no real problems as a result of what happened, and than proceed to RP with me, that definitely takes away my fun. There are a plethora of other cases I can bring up. Magic that is too powerful ruins any stakes that there might be, there is a reason why we temper it and keep it balanced.

Implying that's what happens? Current healing is the exact opposite of that mate. I'll repeat it, I'm not against healing magic, I'm against the way that it is implemented.

Context is important. It's how the problem is rectified that matters.

Because when Clerics and Ascended can literally make your injury go away as if nothing happened with no real cost or RP to themselves, than yeah, it pretty much is the same as not being injured in the first place.

Sure, all my points are still valid however. My bad, didn't mean to misuse the word/phrase, I think everyone got my general idea though.

Fair enough, I can admit that those were poor examples. I'll rephrase,

 

Just because some players prefer a specific kind of roleplay, doesn't mean that the rest of the server has to bend over backward to facilitate it.

 

Every argument in the end is going to come down to how people prefer things. The Lore Team doesn't allow certain creatures to be accepted because they don't think that the Roleplay it'll create will be to their preference. The Administration punishes certain people because they would prefer different actions from them. Everything comes down to a preference. Some people prefer not to ever kill their character under any circumstance and dislike any conflict roleplay outside of their slice of life. Is that a good preference? That's when you start getting into subjective territory which isn't something that can be debated. I and many others however, don't think that this kind of Roleplay is good for the server.

Those responses are equivalent to people that blatantly overlook any complaints against their magic and refuse to branch out their Roleplay.

This is a discussion thread regarding Holy Magic. If someone is making dishonest arguments one way or the other, it's the literal point of the thread to call someone out to expose this dishonesty. You could be 100% right about everything, we won't know if you don't elaborate and explain why you're right and others are wrong however.

Like advocates of holy roleplay and slice of lifer? This statement cuts both ways.

Then, you know, actually propose actual changes instead of setting goal posts for everyone else and then whining when they don't meet the goal posts you meet while you endlessly declare axioms without any evidence just like every single person in this thread. If you actually don't believe that people absolutely will use permanent injury to ruin the fun of other players for the sake of ruining their fun then you haven't paid attention. I'm not going to conduct some kind of study to meet your impossible standards. Don't use hyperbole. No healing is "instant" and getting healed is not avoiding consequences. You think healing is too fast. Just say that and then tell us how fast you think healing magic should be since you supposedly have nothing wrong with healing magic on principle. 

 

So I'll set my goalpost for you then. What exactly, in full explanation, should be the limits of any healing method? I think limbs should be able to be regrown after an OOC month or so over many sessions like how I experienced. I've never ever seen anyone just Piccolo out an arm from holy magic. Because if you think that there should be no recourse rp at all on a high fantasy server then I would ask who is asking who to bend over backward to fit their desires.

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10 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:
14 hours ago, ThatGuy_777 said:

Just to parrot ideas for clerical healing I'm hearing: do it in steady sessions rather than single case instances, or require that somebody has copious faith in the deity themselves (with prayers by the patient and the like) to be remotely effective. I myself lean towards the former.

Except there is no way that something like this can be regulated?

14 hours ago, ThatGuy_777 said:

As for removing holy healing entirely...well, my main character would be nothing more than a limbless vegetable without lips, teeth, a tongue, ears, or eyes.

Just a tip friend, why not stay away from situations where your character is likely going to get mutilated/killed? Or at the very least attempt to approach them with some tact? TBH, everyone should PK on RP death but this is a different argument and people are way to attached to their mineman pixels to actually create quality dynamic roleplay, but at the very least roleplay out injuries properly.

Stop talking like you know how every RP instance will go down. What are you, a flippin' fortune teller? I take screenshots on the regular, to the point I have a good 7,000+ just sitting in my screenshot folder. You don't even necessarily need to take screenshots to ensure evidence, maybe just have somebody else there who can vouch too.
As I mentioned in my post, sometimes situations that end up making you horrifically maimed are unavoidable. Maybe you're saving your kid, perhaps you're just standing in the wrong place at the wrong time and you hear something you shouldn't have, or sometimes people just choose to target you for solely OOC reasons. "Yeah boss, let's got screw this guy up in particular."  I'm getting tired of reading such accusatory replies from you dude when I've never even RP'ed with you, it comes off as pretty toxic.

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Combat application of any and all healing should not undo limb removal, fatal wounds and broken bones. Once a player has been disabled by an injury in conflict, healing of any variety should be about stabilizing the player and allowing them to retain the knowledge gained through the encounter. Not getting them back into the fight. Using healing magic should also disable the healer, when the wounds of the fallen are disabling, regardless of tier. 

Outside of conflict, I do not think it's a huge issue for healing magic to, over quite some time, heal non-fatal wounds. Anything regrown / healed should see hastened degradation, should be weaker than what was before it and should lose quite a bit of coordination. A greater emphasis needs to be placed on the imperfect nature of healing magic and those that currently RP healing magic should be observed, at random, to address the 2-emote fix-alls. 

Overall, I feel that healing magic should be a lesser and more imperfect solution to wounds. No resources are required, risk of failed medical treatment is passed over and knowledge of what magics can and can not do is lacking in quite a few players, the mages themselves at times. Even when unintentional, allowing players to quickly and effortlessly undo something only cheapens the experience.

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18 minutes ago, Temp said:

Combat application of any and all healing should not undo limb removal, fatal wounds and broken bones. Once a player has been disabled by an injury in conflict, healing of any variety should be about stabilizing the player and allowing them to retain the knowledge gained through the encounter. Not getting them back into the fight. Using healing magic should also disable the healer, when the wounds of the fallen are disabling, regardless of tier. 

Outside of conflict, I do not think it's a huge issue for healing magic to, over quite some time, heal non-fatal wounds. Anything regrown / healed should see hastened degradation, should be weaker than what was before it and should lose quite a bit of coordination. A greater emphasis needs to be placed on the imperfect nature of healing magic and those that currently RP healing magic should be observed, at random, to address the 2-emote fix-alls. 

Overall, I feel that healing magic should be a lesser and more imperfect solution to wounds. No resources are required, risk of failed medical treatment is passed over and knowledge of what magics can and can not do is lacking in quite a few players, the mages themselves at times. Even when unintentional, allowing players to quickly and effortlessly undo something only cheapens the experience.

What a complete load of perfectly reasonable ideas. 

 

I agree with almost everything there except I think over time someone should regain complete control of a limb again. But certainly not a Piccolo levels of regeneration no.

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