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GodEmperorFlam

[Completed] Holy Healing Is Bad

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I honestly don't understand this fad. The LotC community always has specific things of the week they want to hyper focus on and criticize unnecessarily. There's literally nothing wrong with it, and healing magic is fine in any other medium. I can't help but feel the problem lies in the players themselves, such as people who get angry when others don't conform to their grimdark consequence RP. Let people do what they enjoy, that's what we're here for. Don't drive more people away.

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10 minutes ago, Dardonas said:

I agree wholeheartedly.  Since there aren't too many suggestions, here's what I would suggest (vaguely) to fix it.  They aren't mutually exclusive nor dependent on one another, just what I would argue has been frustrating to deal with.

 

Remove regrowing limbs of any kind.

If the RP has been completed to remove the limb, then that should be it unless it can be reattached freshly (1-2 days at most).  

Consequences for entering a city you are not supposed to be in should mean something.  Punishments for stealing should mean something.  I once had a player outright refuse to accept his hand was cut off (though GMs solved the problem).  In all honesty, I'd like to see a lot more mangled people on LotC.  It adds character to your character.  Waving a magic wand and regrowing a finger or hand is ridiculous.  I heard that it supposedly isn't supposed to be a thing, but plenty of clerics will RP it otherwise.

 

Counterhealing.

Add possibility for healing to harm the recipient even more than before, or have some counterweight to it. Tahariae's light doesn't feel like it'd be healthy since its supposed to be dedicated to purging as well.  What should be the correct counterbalance?  Not sure.  Perhaps make it painful for the recipient.  Life threatening healing could use some sort of roll system to see if its successful.  If you get injured, seeking a cleric should not be the be all end all.  In fact, it should be risky.  Perhaps make it risky to the healer as well—it should be extremely exhaustive, only able to be used once a day if that's the approach.

 

Combat Healing.

Nope. Nope. Nope.  Get rid of it.  It's dumb.  Healing should require concentration, if you get someone out of the fight it should render them incapacitated for the duration of the fight.  Potions should have some sort of reemergence if you're looking for a quick fix.  Had an issue where a cleric ran into a guardhouse, circlejerk healed with a druid, came back out.  He isn't an issue anymore, but I doubt that such a practice wouldn't be seen today.

 

Dedicate it to Healing the Supernatural Afflictions.

Remove mundane healing entirely.  Clerics, for instance, would now only be able to heal afflictions caused by other magic.  This could be tainted wounds from a necromancer, it could be some form of curse, an infection from an ET creature at the most.  Anything really that isn't mundane.  There would then be a reason to seek out a cleric, while still making it so there isn't "hand wave, wound go away" stuff.

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

 

 

Edit:

 

It was suggested in the cleric chat that healing could be done in sessions, but the cap for ability to heal is removed. Ex. Someone loses an arm, the arm can be regrown, but only sections at a time that would drain a tier 5. As for keeping people from having multiple clerics regrow their arm at one time? Could continue on with that patch idea and say that once a cleric has started healing that spot, another's magic will end up reversing what was healed.

I disagree with most everything you wrote in your post. Honestly, I thought that combat healing was addressed, but it seems people just cannot help themselves so perhaps removing the entire idea of healing in active combat can be a thing. As you can see I support the idea of some form of 'counter healing' like you suggested, but I do not think it should be harmful. In my mind healing magic should be a grand act that accomplishes what mundane healing could not fix such as missing limbs, third degree burns, or even blindness along with taint inflicted wounds. No nerf's please, just make it function differently than the way that allows for heal bots to occur.

Edited by Snelfma

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Just to parrot ideas for clerical healing I'm hearing: do it in steady sessions rather than single case instances, or require that somebody has copious faith in the deity themselves (with prayers by the patient and the like) to be remotely effective. I myself lean towards the former.

And yeah, generally the only people who misuse or misunderstand druidic heightened herbs are just bad doctors in general.

As for removing holy healing entirely...well, my main character would be nothing more than a limbless vegetable without lips, teeth, a tongue, ears, or eyes. Say what you will, I literally couldn't play my character were this the case, unless I had simply chosen "-and he bleeds out and dies." during those memorable RP instances. Holy healing in EXTREME circumstances where a player has been decimated to all hell (whether for IC actions or some dude who just has OOC grudges) literally is meant for doing what mundane healing cannot. That's what it's meant for in all fantasy genres. 

Edited by ThatGuy_777

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8 minutes ago, Dardonas said:

Remove regrowing limbs of any kind.

If the RP has been completed to remove the limb, then that should be it unless it can be reattached freshly (1-2 days at most).  

Consequences for entering a city you are not supposed to be in should mean something.  Punishments for stealing should mean something.  I once had a player outright refuse to accept his hand was cut off (though GMs solved the problem).  In all honesty, I'd like to see a lot more mangled people on LotC.  It adds character to your character.  Waving a magic wand and regrowing a finger or hand is ridiculous.  I heard that it supposedly isn't supposed to be a thing, but plenty of clerics will RP it otherwise.

Respectfully? No. Unfortunately, not everyone wishes to RP grimdark mangling and snuff films. if you take away all recourses, you will see a drastic uptick in **bleeds out.** whenever this happens. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Dardonas said:

Counterhealing.

Add possibility for healing to harm the recipient even more than before, or have some counterweight to it. Tahariae's light doesn't feel like it'd be healthy since its supposed to be dedicated to purging as well.  What should be the correct counterbalance?  Not sure.  Perhaps make it painful for the recipient.  Life threatening healing could use some sort of roll system to see if its successful.  If you get injured, seeking a cleric should not be the be all end all.  In fact, it should be risky.  Perhaps make it risky to the healer as well—it should be extremely exhaustive, only able to be used once a day if that's the approach.

That's already how it is halfway. Healing can permanently kill a cleric if they're not careful. Most of us are careful enough to not completely run out of mana and explode trying to save some baby that got bonked on the head by a mischievous child in a decidedly malicious fashion ((Yes. This happened before))

 

12 minutes ago, Dardonas said:

 

Combat Healing.

Nope. Nope. Nope.  Get rid of it.  It's dumb.  Healing should require concentration, if you get someone out of the fight it should render them incapacitated for the duration of the fight.  Potions should have some sort of reemergence if you're looking for a quick fix.  Had an issue where a cleric ran into a guardhouse, circlejerk healed with a druid, came back out.  He isn't an issue anymore, but I doubt that such a practice wouldn't be seen today.

You have a very solid point, but I would go a step further. No combat healing whatsoever, and introduce a fatigue that prevents you from rejoining the fray. This isn't World of Warcraft where you cast holy shock on your friend about to die whilst screaming for the priest to stop jerking off and do their job. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Dardonas said:

Dedicate it to Healing the Supernatural Afflictions.

Remove mundane healing entirely.  Clerics, for instance, would now only be able to heal afflictions caused by other magic.  This could be tainted wounds from a necromancer, it could be some form of curse, an infection from an ET creature at the most.  Anything really that isn't mundane.  There would then be a reason to seek out a cleric, while still making it so there isn't "hand wave, wound go away" stuff.

 

Once again, I respectfully disagree. All this does is mean magic will not be used at all by those wishing to inflict serious injury. They'll use mundane torture and then we're back at the start, except now we can't do a darn thing except tell them they should've bled out as our hands are tied. 

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I've mentioned this a lot before but I'll mention it again here. Steadily over time I've seen holy healing be buffed and the few negative components simply erased from roleplay. Bring this stuff back.

  • Make holy healing painful for the patient again. It's simply natural that healing is uncomfortable. Heck in real life stuff like popping a joint back into place hurts, wounds that are healing itch, you get sore and ache, etc. Yet often I see people being holy healed just talking through the process or not even reacting. 
  • Make holy healing imperfect. Leave scars behind, nerve damage, stop with this perfect result crap! 
  • Make holy healing require mundane healing, both knowledge and involvement. You shouldn't be able to heal a wound that you do not know information about or on a body part that you don't understand the functions of. Broken bones should have to physically be set again. Burn wounds should acknowledge that the burned flesh is dead and thus can't be revived. Use blissfoil for the pain, tippens for the bleeding, etc.
  • Limit the size of things that can be "regrown" by a holy healer and instead focus on reattachments or transplants. 

Yes, holy healers should be more effective/quicker than non-holy healers... But not to the point we have now where there is no point in non-holy healers being around. 

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Let's be honest, the overarching theme of Holy Magic is mind-numbingly lame. Let's remove it all together.

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12 minutes ago, Aelsioln said:

I've mentioned this a lot before but I'll mention it again here. Steadily over time I've seen holy healing be buffed and the few negative components simply erased from roleplay. Bring this stuff back.

  • Make holy healing painful for the patient again. It's simply natural that healing is uncomfortable. Heck in real life stuff like popping a joint back into place hurts, wounds that are healing itch, you get sore and ache, etc. Yet often I see people being holy healed just talking through the process or not even reacting. 
  • Make holy healing imperfect. Leave scars behind, nerve damage, stop with this perfect result crap! 
  • Make holy healing require mundane healing, both knowledge and involvement. You shouldn't be able to heal a wound that you do not know information about or on a body part that you don't understand the functions of. Broken bones should have to physically be set again. Burn wounds should acknowledge that the burned flesh is dead and thus can't be revived. Use blissfoil for the pain, tippens for the bleeding, etc.
  • Limit the size of things that can be "regrown" by a holy healer and instead focus on reattachments or transplants. 

Yes, holy healers should be more effective/quicker than non-holy healers... But not to the point we have now where there is no point in non-holy healers being around. 

-all for adding pain

-people already have the option for their healing to be imperfect. Most people don't want a scar across the side of their face or wherever it might be. So theyre more likely to bleed out and have it monk healed when they're resurrected if it isn't a perfect heal. Which kills rp entirely.

-sure. Up until now it's been left to the cleric to decide if they want to include mundane methods as to their style

-regrowing is limited to fingers and such for clerics. You can only reattach arms and legs and hands and the such according to the current lore

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Make the person be forced to believe in (insert healing deity's name here) before they can even begin to be healed. If they don't genuinely believe, no heals. Sorry Billy, unfaithful heretic? Learn to live with a sword in your arm.

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9 minutes ago, The Templar said:

Respectfully? No. Unfortunately, not everyone wishes to RP grimdark mangling and snuff films. if you take away all recourses, you will see a drastic uptick in **bleeds out.** whenever this happens. 

Nobody is advocating horror tier snuff RP.  It'd be sickening.  Excessively gorey emotes are against the rules, if I'm not mistaken, so turning someone into a gored up freak/head on a torso would likely not be tolerated.  If a player tries to steal in a city where stealing is illegal and you cut off his hand, you know what ought to happen? He loses the hand.  Consequences for Roleplay, that's all anyone ever advocates for nowadays and people seem to misconstrue that as taking fun away from roleplay.  You know what isn't fun?  Seeing a guy lahdeedah around towns, starting fights and stealing crap only to come back 30 minutes later after the guards put him down.  Its unrealistic, and its created a roleplay environment full of psychopaths who are numb to death and violence as a result.  People want their slice of life RP?  That's fine, have at it, this won't effect them.

 

9 minutes ago, The Templar said:

That's already how it is halfway. Healing can permanently kill a cleric if they're not careful. Most of us are careful enough to not completely run out of mana and explode trying to save some baby that got bonked on the head by a mischievous child in a decidedly malicious fashion ((Yes. This happened before))

On this point, I'd like to say that it should be RP'd this way if that's truly how it is.  If you can truly risk death and strain of your body, then it should not be a first resort but a last resort.  Just earlier I ran into a cleric saying "Oh lemme do a little 'Light Therapy' on someone"  It felt overthetop cartoonish and like the cleric had no value on healing magic because they can use it at a whim. 

 

7 minutes ago, The Templar said:

Once again, I respectfully disagree. All this does is mean magic will not be used at all by those wishing to inflict serious injury. They'll use mundane torture and then we're back at the start, except now we can't do a darn thing except tell them they should've bled out as our hands are tied. 

Are clerics incapable of learning alchemy or medicine with their magic?  I mean, personally, I'd be ecstatic to see Clerics have a role as a doctor of the supernatural.  It fits more thematically in with Tahariae being against impure things for him to only allow healing impure wounds.   

 

 

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Nerf healing and discourage the amount of killing/conflict RP that just happens to happen.

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3 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

 

-sure. Up until now it's been left to the cleric to decide if they want to include mundane methods as to their style

 

I disagree with this, but I do think more information needs to be handed out since mundane methods are necessary in some situations. I've seen quite a few people get so excited about their spell that they don't actually try to stabilize the patient before beginning, which is a culture I think we need to introduce rather than make as a rule.

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9 minutes ago, Smaw said:

Let's be honest, the overarching theme of Holy Magic is mind-numbingly lame. Let's remove it all together.

 

I say shift it to D&D style. "holy" damage is just radiant damage, hurts most everything equally save for undead things which take a little more. 

 

Then you can shift unholy magic/dark magic to necrotic type damage.

There's an existing system that's been well developed and balanced to look to here, we should be doing so.

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16 minutes ago, Elrith said:

Nerf healing and discourage the amount of killing/conflict RP that just happens to happen.

Conflict rp will remain the same, the only thing that will rise is **bleeds out* emotes

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1 hour ago, Snelfma said:

Now, as someone who has been doing medical rp since I've been on the server, and while I do whine about how people just throw magic at a wound I disagree with nerfing healing magic again. I think magic should be used when natural means can no longer be helpful, BUT I do think things need to change to make the rp more interesting. The magic could be altered so that magical regeneration of a wound still causes exhaustion to the patient, the magic acts more like a patch that can be removed or dissolved when it comes into contact with other magics in a short period of time, or even the regenerated area takes a completely unnatural appearance. Those are just my ideas, I might flesh them out a little more later.

 

Edit:

 

It was suggested in the cleric chat that healing could be done in sessions, but the cap for ability to heal is removed. Ex. Someone loses an arm, the arm can be regrown, but only sections at a time that would drain a tier 5. As for keeping people from having multiple clerics regrow their arm at one time? Could continue on with that patch idea and say that once a cleric has started healing that spot, another's magic will end up reversing what was healed.

 

Better idea, the wound is entirely transferred to the healer and the healer does not have advanced regenerative abilities. In otherwords, if medicine can't heal it and it's fatal, the healer will die to save the person's life and it will count as a PK due to it being suicide.

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