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FlamboyantTyrant

[Completed] Holy Healing Is Bad

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This is very chad. It "heals" the character, but for a big consequence. Some of you might not know the lore it's from, but that's alright. Divine healing needs to be roleplayed right, and have more consequence. It works in D&D and whatever else because there are these special things called "Spellslots", and Dungeons and Dragons is heavy on the combat, more so than LoTC. It'd be stupid if you couldn't heal in combat because believe it or not, unless you have an AC of some ungodly minmaxed number, you're going to take BIG damage. In LoTC, you got a little more control over what your character is doing, moving x, y, z, block, whatever. It's much easier to avoid blows because your means to dodge isn't based off some number. There's -- and yeah, something really stupid that's about to come out of my words -- a little more finesse, and much more room to dodge because of some attempt at simulating "realism" on a fantasy mineman server. Should heals be decimated and make holy mages obsolete? No, but if anything, there ought to be some consequences that makes a holyman contemplate whether the heal is worth it at that time. 

 

I wanna touch on "Spellslots" though.  

 

Pretty much, mana points. When you use say "Cure wounds", it will burn up a spell slot of that level and will be regained after x thing. Even a high level cleric needs to be considerate about their heals, and before someone says "Well Paladin's got lay on hands!", it still requires a recharge that's pretty big, and while Lay on Hands is really powerful, it requires x amount of healing points to cure certain things. If Holy Magic here had mana points, that could work, but then we also need to revamp all magic to make that possible and god don't kill me with that work load. But yeah, that's why healing works in most other settings -- muh precious MP that I got to decide and if I'm out of MP, what am I going to have in my back pocket? Holy magic's healing isn't as bad as people scream about, but there are some things that need to be changed. That's just my two cents, quoters pick my corpse apart. 

 

Here, for reference on Lay on Hands, and yeah -- I'm too tired to screenshot my handbook:

You have a pool of healing power that replenishes when you take a long rest. With that pool, you can restore a total number of hit points equal to your paladin level x 5. As an action, you can touch a creature and draw power from the pool to restore a number of hit points to that creature, up to the maximum amount remaining in your pool.

Alternatively, you can expend 5 hit points from your pool of healing to cure the target of one disease or neutralize one poison affecting it. You can cure multiple diseases and neutralize multiple poisons with a single use of Lay on Hands, expending hit points separately for each one.

This feature has no effect on undead and constructs.

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21 minutes ago, Parkins said:

 

What. Excuse me? This has been contested for ages, we have discord channels based on fixing it and have for months.

 

22 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Nice, omit the pretty much instant regeneration they have. 1-2 hours IC is like five minutes of OOC time.

 

What...I'm sorry what? Like, really? I guess you completely forgot about this thread than....

I'm speechless. A thread chock full of complaints, and no one has ever complained. I mean, there are people complaining about Ascended Magic in this thread rn. K.

Except that's something you chose to do? If an Ascended wanted to log off for half an hour, upon coming back they'd be perfectly within reason to have just claimed that the wound healed. Or even if it's for the day.

 

TL;DR, healing roleplay at the moment is absolutely horrid and needs a serious revamp. I'm not opposed to it in its entirety, but it needs to be strictly monitored, have no combat applications, and just in general toned down from all angles.

 

 

 

Jallen is referring to the rewrite that we currently have on standby because of an upcoming announcement by the LT that corrolates to do with Holy Magic. All the errors that the LT gave to us have been fixed within said rewrite and we're currently waiting for the announcement before we continue working on the rewrite. We don't know what said announcement is but we've been told to put the rewrite on standby until the announcement is out. Plus it's better to wait and see how the announcement will affect for the Ascended before we continue with the rewrite, else we'll likely write something that could go against said announcement and cause us to overhaul an idea we have already fleshed out. The current Ascended magic, the active one as of now, does have flaws but the one in the rewrite has been fixed. We're just waiting on this announcement from the LT.

 

Furthermore, the most recent thread regarding the Ascended came out shortly after we were told to put the rewrite in standby but all the posts have been taken into consideration - although a majority have outlined issues that have been fixed within the rewrite alright.

 

In regards to Ascended regenerating time, I meant the hours in OOC time. I apologise for not elaborating if its IC or not, but a majority of the Ascended leave their wounds to regenerate for an OOC hour or two. Jallentime went as far as to have his character's eye slowly regenerate over a 2-4 OOC Day period. Furthermore, don't forget there will be moments where an Ascended is wounded and leaves an area, and will not receive any roleplay. How do you expect an Ascended player to roleplay out their wounds healing when no one is present? An Ascended will leave the server to focus on other things and by then, yes their wounds will heal and time would have passed if you put into consideration how time works on the server. Furthermore, it depends on the severity of the wounds and it's hard for me to put into perspective how long it will take for a wound to heal due to the different sizes, depths, and other factors that need to be considered in regards to wounds. Minor wounds would take a few minutes OOC, whereas more major wounds would take a few OOC hours... but where is the line between a minor wound and a major wound, and there's the moderate wounds also.

 

However, should an Ascended be instant-regenerating and it's clearly unfair, do report it to a staff member or another Ascended player so that we can at least talk to the person and get them to quit the instant-regeneration, else they will be let off the hook and may continue with such.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, The Fire Mind said:

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This is very chad. It "heals" the character, but for a big consequence. Some of you might not know the lore it's from, but that's alright. Divine healing needs to be roleplayed right, and have more consequence. It works in D&D and whatever else because there are these special things called "Spellslots", and Dungeons and Dragons is heavy on the combat, more so than LoTC. It'd be stupid if you couldn't heal in combat because believe it or not, unless you have an AC of some ungodly minmaxed number, you're going to take BIG damage. In LoTC, you got a little more control over what your character is doing, moving x, y, z, block, whatever. It's much easier to avoid blows because your means to dodge isn't based off some number. There's -- and yeah, something really stupid that's about to come out of my words -- a little more finesse, and much more room to dodge because of some attempt at simulating "realism" on a fantasy mineman server. Should heals be decimated and make holy mages obsolete? No, but if anything, there ought to be some consequences that makes a holyman contemplate whether the heal is worth it at that time. 

 

I wanna touch on "Spellslots" though.  

 

Pretty much, mana points. When you use say "Cure wounds", it will burn up a spell slot of that level and will be regained after x thing. Even a high level cleric needs to be considerate about their heals, and before someone says "Well Paladin's got lay on hands!", it still requires a recharge that's pretty big, and while Lay on Hands is really powerful, it requires x amount of healing points to cure certain things. If Holy Magic here had mana points, that could work, but then we also need to revamp all magic to make that possible and god don't kill me with that work load. But yeah, that's why healing works in most other settings -- muh precious MP that I got to decide and if I'm out of MP, what am I going to have in my back pocket? Holy magic's healing isn't as bad as people scream about, but there are some things that need to be changed. That's just my two cents, quoters pick my corpse apart. 

 

Here, for reference on Lay on Hands, and yeah -- I'm too tired to screenshot my handbook:

You have a pool of healing power that replenishes when you take a long rest. With that pool, you can restore a total number of hit points equal to your paladin level x 5. As an action, you can touch a creature and draw power from the pool to restore a number of hit points to that creature, up to the maximum amount remaining in your pool.

Alternatively, you can expend 5 hit points from your pool of healing to cure the target of one disease or neutralize one poison affecting it. You can cure multiple diseases and neutralize multiple poisons with a single use of Lay on Hands, expending hit points separately for each one.

This feature has no effect on undead and constructs.

 

Could we please pleaee please please please please have spell slots on Lotc. 

 

 

So think of it like this,

 

You get a few spells per day of a certain tier, that might solve a lot of problems tbh. Of course for other stuff thats narrative/for show, could be like cantrips and ****

 

Might be a good way to put a balancing act on most magics without having to screw over most of a certain magic community.

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@ChonGojDragonski, I'm not going to quote all your responses, but it looks like over half of them had to deal with poor rp'ers doing poor rp rather than an inherent flaw in the magic.

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@ChonGojDragonski I'm not gonna make a huge analytical response to everything you've said and turn it against you in the same petty manner as you have, but you seem a pretty big advocate against holy healing. That's fine, you're allowed to not use it. Don't force other people to suffer your """""""""""""quality""""""""""""" roleplay though, it won't be fun for anyone but you. I'm sure that's what you're after though.

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11 minutes ago, Farryn said:

Jallen is referring to the rewrite that we currently have on standby because of an upcoming announcement by the LT that corrolates to do with Holy Magic. All the errors that the LT gave to us have been fixed within said rewrite and we're currently waiting for the announcement before we continue working on the rewrite. Since we don't know what said announcement is, it's better we wait to see what the announcement will affect for the Ascended before we continue with the rewrite, else we'll likely write something that could go against said announcement and cause us to overhaul an idea we have already fleshed out. The current Ascended magic, the active one as of now, does have flaws but the one in the rewrite has been fixed. We're just waiting on this announcement from the LT.

Until this rewrite is publicized, it's not fair to make statements regarding Ascended based off it. I'm discussing the here and now. If this rewrite fixes everything about the Ascended, than I'll be the first person arguing for it. Doubt it'll happen though. People arguing for Frost Witches made the same arguments you guys did,

 

I.E, rewrite will fix everything bro, just wait.

 

We all know how that went...

11 minutes ago, Farryn said:

I meant the hours in OOC time. I apologise for not elaborating if its IC or not, but a majority of the Ascended leave their wounds to regenerate for an OOC hour or two. Jallentime went as far as to have his character's eye slowly regenerate over a 2-4 OOC Day period.

That's the thing though, this is completely optional. As I said before, someone can log off for half an hour and come back as if nothing happened, they'd be in the right. Perhaps this is addressed in the rewrite, it's still awful atm though.

11 minutes ago, Farryn said:

Furthermore, don't forget there will be moments where an Ascended is wounded and leaves an area, and will not receive any roleplay. How do you expect an Ascended player to roleplay out their wounds healing when no one is present? An Ascended will leave the server to focus on other things and by then, yes their wounds will heal and time would have passed if you put into consideration how time works on the server.

That's the thing, if someone has to deal with a limb being cut off, or being crippled for around an IC year, that's something that will be roleplayed for an extended period of time, even as OOC time passes.

11 minutes ago, Farryn said:

However, should an Ascended be instant-regenerating and it's clearly unfair, do report it to a staff member or another Ascended player so that we can at least talk to the person and get them to quit the instant-regeneration.

I qualify 5-30 minutes of OOC afk/logging off as instant regeneration, the thing is, they'd be roleplaying 100% within the rules. Again, perhaps this is addressed in the rewrite. Until the rewrite is made public, it's a bad system.

 

Appreciate your response by the way.

7 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

@ChonGojDragonski, I'm not going to quote all your responses, but it looks like over half of them had to deal with poor rp'ers doing poor rp rather than an inherent flaw in the magic.

Don't appreciate this one. You should have not posted at all if you're not going to debate on a debate thread. I don't know how I'm supposed to respond to someone basically saying they can't be arsed to have open discourse with me because it doesn't suit them. And clearly you didn't read my point and how the system is FUNDEMENTALLY flawed. Actually read through it and answer my points.

1 minute ago, Gladuos said:

@ChonGojDragonski I'm not gonna make a huge analytical response to everything you've said and turn it against you in the same petty manner as you have, but you seem a pretty big advocate against holy healing. That's fine, you're allowed to not use it. Don't force other people to suffer your """""""""""""quality""""""""""""" roleplay though, it won't be fun for anyone but you. I'm sure that's what you're after though.

Nice way to save face and not answer any of my extremely valid points. If pointing out the flaws in your logic/argument is turning it against you, than IDK what to say. And clearly many people agree with me. It's a discussion thread, if you're not going to discuss, IDK what this comment adds.

Edited by ChonGojDragonski

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1 minute ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

 

Appreciate your response by the way.

Don't appreciate this one. You should have not posted at all if you're not going to debate on a debate thread. I don't know how I'm supposed to respond to someone basically saying they can't be arsed to have open discourse with me because it doesn't suit them. And clearly you didn't read my point and how the system is FUNDEMENTALLY flawed. Actually read through it and answer my points.

I did read and most of your points were about how the patient could perform poor roleplay by logging out or ignoring any consequences. I saw nothing about how the magic ITSELF could be abused, is in someway overpowered, or gaps in lore that would allow for something stupid or absurd like attaching limbs to someone of a different race of said limb. It is one thing if you criticize lore, it is another if you talk about how people abuse lore in such a way that they can be reported for power gaming.

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And that's a good way to ignore my extremely valid points as well, sir. I'm telling you that you're full of sh*t, and everything you're trying to say to "disprove" mine seems like delusion. You're an advocate for the devil, is there ever any instance where you don't pick the awful side?

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28 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

-snip-

TBH, everyone should PK on RP death but this is a different argument and people are way to attached to their mineman pixels to actually create quality dynamic roleplay, but at the very least roleplay out injuries properly.

-snip-

Your entire argument stems from this singular power fantasy. "I think people should PK on rp death as a consequence, so all consequences should be permanent." So long as that's how you see, there's no further point discussing this. You will not change your mind, nor will you convince anyone else that your extreme response is the right way. You even threw in an honestly dated jab at "pixels" as a reason to not PK, instead of people possibly having complex stories they enjoy RPing rather than hardcore politics to see who sits on what chair. 

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6 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

I did read and most of your points were about how the patient could perform poor roleplay by logging out or ignoring any consequences. I saw nothing about how the magic ITSELF could be abused

EXCEPT THE SYSTEM ALLOWS FOR THIS! Someone logging out for 30 minutes and acting as if they were never injured is 100% within the rules. Clearly you didn't read all of it. I can quote where I said this explicitly if you want. The Ascended system is utterly broken, and healing roleplay is exactly the same.

5 minutes ago, Gladuos said:

And that's a good way to ignore my extremely valid points as well, sir. I'm telling you that you're full of sh*t, and everything you're trying to say to "disprove" mine seems like delusion. You're an advocate for the devil, is there ever any instance where you don't pick the awful side?

Seem mad there bud. I'd like you to quote a single point that you made which I didn't address. If the way I addressed them was wrong, you're supposed to quote it and explain WHY it was wrong. I don't think you understand how a discussion works friend. Appreciate you associating myself and the things I advocate for as evil by the way. Very logical, quality discussion right there. If what I'm saying is delusional, point it out. Please, I'll be the first to say I'm wrong if you can.Quote selection

Just now, The Templar said:

Your entire argument stems from this singular power fantasy. "I think people should PK on rp death as a consequence, so all consequences should be permanent." So long as that's how you see, there's no further point discussing this.

I'm so stupid. By saying this one thing I gave you free license to completely ignore every valid point I made. All of my points are still valid even if you don't believe in PK on RP death as RP should still have consequences. Very convenient.

1 minute ago, The Templar said:

You will not change your mind, nor will you convince anyone else that your extreme response is the right way. You even threw in an honestly dated jab at "pixels" as a reason to not PK, instead of people possibly having complex stories they enjoy RPing rather than hardcore politics to see who sits on what chair. 

Complex stories involve risk, death, give and take? Name a single complex and widely heralded story where there isn't risk involved...You literally can't. And again, I'm more than willing to change my mind. Assuming I'm not is lazy and not fair to me as a person.

Edited by ChonGojDragonski

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I actually don't know where to start, everything you say is basically the exact opposite of what I believe is the right thing to do. And it comes down to subjective opinions on what is good and what is bad, I didn't say anything you advocate for is evil, just terrible imo. Every single time. I don't know how it gets in your head, it's so foreign to me. The point is I don't want to discuss it with you because you're the type of person who will go on for hours and hours because you're so set in your ways. It actually does piss me off, yeah. You're acting very smug.

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1 minute ago, Gladuos said:

I actually don't know where to start, everything you say is basically the exact opposite of what I believe is the right thing to do. And it comes down to subjective opinions on what is good and what is bad, I didn't say anything you advocate for is evil, just terrible imo. Every single time. I don't know how it gets in your head, it's so foreign to me. The point is I don't want to discuss it with you because you're the type of person who will go on for hours and hours because you're so set in your ways. It actually does piss me off, yeah. You're acting very smug.

I actually took the time to respond to each and every one of your points, giving you and them the respect that they deserved. You blew mines off. I'm acting smug? Alright mate, let me apologize if that's the impression you got. But regardless of whether or not my tone conveyed smugness, your actions convey it, and that's far worse.

 

And subjective opinions can be based on merit and fact. Someone can have a racist or sexist opinion, doesn't mean it's a valid one?

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I think whether or not holy healing magic is fine in a fantasy server is a little different from racism or sexism, guy. You're fighting the straw man. It's subjective, there's no proving sh*t and it's more subtle than what you think it is. In my opinion, holy magic healing is fine. You're picking the extreme on the other spectrum.

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Just now, Gladuos said:

I think whether or not holy healing magic is fine in a fantasy server is a little different from racism or sexism, guy. You're fighting the straw man. It's subjective, there's no proving sh*t and it's more subtle than what you think it is. In my opinion, holy magic healing is fine. You're picking the extreme on the other spectrum.

You missed the point completely. You claimed that opinions are subjective, therefore no meaningful discussion can be had regarding them. I just demonstrated two examples of opinions people have where there is meaningful discussion every day. It's not a straw man, you just didn't understand the analogy. You said Holy Magic is fine for X, Y, and Z. I explained why X, Y, and Z is wrong. If you disagree, answer my explanations. If not, this is pointless and we're further cluttering a thread that was meant for discussion.

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@ChonGojDragonski

 

The whole of your argument seems to be based on this idea that a loud vocal minority seem to have that we should be some hardcore rp server where your first rp death is an automatic PK.

And that's honestly a horrid idea. For all the times that people suggest this, it's clear that a large majority do not want this style of roleplay, either through vocally expressing such or through their actions.

Nobody on the server PKs to their first rp death because, we're all here to have fun and develop stories with our personas.

 

I saw earlier that you said "blah blah blah some people don't want to rp with people who don't PK and ignore injuries that ruin characters."

 

Nobody wants to rp with people like yourself who seem to fetishize torture and inflicting injury.

Sure you might find that rp fun for whatever reason you might have.

But others don't and the only thing that makes it tolerable is the fact that you can get it reversed through monk resurrection or holy healing.

By removing holy healing, the only thing you're going to see rise is *bleeds out* "monks brought me back to life, that rp was a waste of time as it has no effect on my persona."

At least with holy healing something can come out of it as memories are kept.

 

And your whole argument of "there's no way to regulate it" doesn't fall on the magic itself. It falls on the Lt team who's job it is to regulate and enforce rules.

And besides, perhaps if it was amended to be that it would take sessions, the community through teachers with TAs could self regulate along with normal players reporting abuse.

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