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FlamboyantTyrant

[Completed] Holy Healing Is Bad

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12 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Perhaps you could explain something to me, as it's very plausible I misunderstood.

 

Couldn't an Ascended take an injury, such as losing a limb, onto themselves, therefore heal the person?

 

Just want this clarified, as I know it explicitly states in Cleric redlines that they can't regenerate limbs/extremities. 

 

I don't believe there are any ways to regenerate entire missing organs or limbs without the use of resurrection from monks (not a player thing) or regeneration potions. I'm not an expert on Ascended, but I am a cleric. Clerics certainly cannot restore missing organs/limbs.

 

13 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

I personally have qualms in the way alchemy is utilized as well, though I think it's less prevalent of an issue. The way I see it, Holy Healing Magic should work really quickly for small injuries such as cuts, bruises, forms of fatigue, and other such things. And it should be a way to heal super diffiult things that couldn't be healed without the use of Magic. Medium things, such as broken bones, or muscle tears, etc, etc, should be tied between Holy Healing and Mundane Healing. This system would give Magic Healers some usefulness in an immediate sense regarding small and minor injuries, as well as vital in the long term sense for certain kinds of injuries. By making them equivalent to mundane healers when it comes to medium level injuries, you preserve mundane healing roleplay and prevent Holy Healing from being the save all be all to any kind of injury. It should be rare and awe inspiring when you see it, the current system doesn't fully provide for that. Just thought I'd state my opinion as to how it should be done to explain why I sort of disagree with you.

 

That's fair enough, but I stand by my opinion that if you put a lot more time and effort into practicing a magic dedicated to RP, you ought to be better for it in some way or another than a common mundane healer.

 

15 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

I see no reason as to why Clerics and other holies can't also learn medicine Roleplay, and provide both kinds for victims and prospective learners aside. What if Clerics also made a guild where they teach the basics of human anatomy, how to properly stitch a cut up, set a broken nose or something in battle, stop blood loss, etc. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, and you can maintain their importance through the healing of injuries that are beyond the capability of simple mundane healing.

 

Clerics do actually do this, but the point isn't to be on par with alchemists but to be the healers on the server. That's what holies ought to be, and I think they should deserve it for all the months of RP and magic slot usage it takes to get there. Plus, some people really like the religious light magic style of healing things over gritty manual fixing things.

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16 minutes ago, Cordial said:

An Ascended doesn't regenerate large scale wounds within a few OOC minutes. That's not how I RP the magic, and that's not how it should be RP'ed.

The lore states, as shown here,

d2NXUwy.pngiAQAXkQ.png

IC days pass by in about half an hour to an hour of OOC time. This entire thread is made for discussing whether the lore should be rewritten/changed, and clearly it should be. Just because you might RP it "correctly" doesn't mean that others don't in their way because of how poorly the lore is written.

16 minutes ago, Cordial said:

Ascended can take on fatal wounds, like decapitated arms, but doing that is a pk, as it is the Ascended that now has the fatal wound. They wouldn't regenerate themselves from bleeding out. 

A decapitated hand/arm/limb isn't really fatal though, as long as the blood loss is stabilized. And again, the Ascended lore is so grey and uncertain regarding this matter, it doesn't matter how it's supposed to be Roleplayed, the lore still needs to be reworked to explain that.

7 minutes ago, Gladuos said:

I don't believe there are any ways to regenerate entire missing organs or limbs without the use of resurrection from monks (not a player thing) or regeneration potions. I'm not an expert on Ascended, but I am a cleric. Clerics certainly cannot restore missing organs/limbs.

Fair enough regarding Clerics, Ascended can however.

 

Edited by ChonGojDragonski

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3 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Fair enough regarding Clerics, Ascended can however. 

 

I can't speak for Ascended because I'm not one but I don't think I've ever seen them legitimately regen a missing limb before. Besides that, there are a lot of ways to deal with missing limbs or permanent injuries that aren't directly healing methods like magic prosthetics. Those can be fun tbh, I wish clerics had some type of neat prosthetic.

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What's funny is how I have no idea where you got that screen grab of that Ascended Lore, because it wasn't from the most recent guide or rewrite. Regardless, It takes months of RP teaching to get to a level high enough to even heal complex wounds, which at that level, you could be able to regenerate after an appropiate amount of time had passed.

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46 minutes ago, Cordial said:

What's funny is how I have no idea where you got that screen grab of that Ascended Lore, because it wasn't from the most recent guide or rewrite. Regardless, It takes months of RP teaching to get to a level high enough to even heal complex wounds, which at that level, you could be able to regenerate after an appropiate amount of time had passed.

screnshot was taken from the PowerPoint linked in this thread, the most recent update. MFW Ascended doesn't even know how his own lore is written. There is nothing in this lore that applies tiers to soul mending or tiers to regeneration. If it's not in the lore, you can't expect people to RP it, hence the need for a rewrite. It's elementary really.

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Haha, I've stated my points, and find no use in babbling with a forum lurk. Take care.

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Just now, Cordial said:

Haha, I've stated my points, and find no use in babbling with a forum lurk. Take care.

Quality bants. Gets exposed for not knowing their own lore, proceeds to bow out of the discussion with ad hominem. And Ascended wonder why they have such a bad rep and people outright campaigning for the removal of their magic. Its own users don't know how it functions.

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No one needs to be forced to permanently RP an invalid, there should always be a means to reverse that, and its not really their problem if some people want to look down on them as inferior RPers for not wanting to do so. But I do think that the power of clerical healing needs to have some sort of trade-off that actually makes people consider druidic or regular healing as a legitimate option, and not just what we use when no cleircs are present.

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Just for the record, and for those who are acting like they know so much about the Ascended magic and don't, we cannot regenerate lost limbs or anything of that sort. In fact, there have been multiple roleplay situations where we cannot heal a person missing a limb because it would mean the permanent loss of said-limb on the Ascended that does the healing, or at least the mangling of the limb if it's even still there. A lost limb is a lost limb and we can't do anything about that.

 

I understand that whenever a holy magic-related thread comes up on this forum, there is that same group of 12 folks who just dog on the magics in hopes to be rid of them, but at least get your facts straight before making an uneducated and uninformed remark like "Dur-hur, get rid of holy magic because I'm not one and I don't understand it." It's really getting old and it's really a waste of time on a thread meant to improve and reform the magic. Nobody cares how you feel about holy magic in general when we're asking for critiques on holy healing.

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3 hours ago, Gladuos said:

 

I can't speak for Ascended because I'm not one but I don't think I've ever seen them legitimately regen a missing limb before. Besides that, there are a lot of ways to deal with missing limbs or permanent injuries that aren't directly healing methods like magic prosthetics. Those can be fun tbh, I wish clerics had some type of neat prosthetic.

 

Asended cannot regenerate limbs or organs. If it’s badly mangled but still effectively there, it’ll regenerate. IE someone scrambled your eye. If someone cuts off a finger and throws it in a lake it’s gone forever.

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Yo why not just have it so that Clerical/Holy magic only works on wounds outside the paygrade of regular mundane healing, maybe ICly cause Tah/Xan/Aerial just dont consider it worth their while or something.

 

That way mundane healers get their large niche but theres still a place for clerics.

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I think that holy healing in its current state is too powerful to really be kept around. It was grandfathered in, as I heard, and should be taken down a peg or two. People should no longer be walking ambulances, this isn't an RPG server. It's purely RP based and as I see it, Aspirin++++ has really overstayed its welcome. No more instantaneous recovery, please.

Edited by Killmatronix

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I think you raise a good point, healing magic has devolved into a thing where all injuries are healed pretty much with little effort and there are no repercussions. However, the answer is not to make it less powerful or flat out remove it. Healing roleplay has been a staple of the server for a long time and it suits the environment, an environment where people literally cannot die, they are resurrected, healing their injuries is a pretty insignificant thing. People also have to play these characters for fun and maybe they don’t care to have their character permanently maimed or care to rp being bedridden and healing. They should have the option instead of being forced into it. I think the problem here is with the players that have become complacent and lazy and thrown old customs out the window, and lore that has steered away from what it once was. Former clerical lore has been all but ignored in recent years.

 

Healing someone, for a cleric, used to be a serious endeavor. It was painful for not only the patient but the cleric. The idea of having your nonlife threatening injury feel excruciating to heal as the light forcefully mended your body was discouraging to many whom might want to just ignore injury. Clerics had to balance pain relief with healing and often needed a second cleric acting as the pain reliever. At one point the cleric actually took on the pain of their patient. If they didn’t want to go through the process for every petty wound they lived with their wounds. This served the purpose of not making people deal with the maiming they experience on a day to day basis but making them nurture the lesser wounds they got, traditionally and mundanely. If they shrugged off the idea of the pain, well the process was problematic for the cleric. The immense aengulic power being channeled through clerics was dangerous and corrosive, their mortal shells could not sustain it effectively. It caused extreme exhaustion, major heals likely resulted in being comatose for a while and vulnerable and if pushed themselves too much and healed too many times, it was lethal. Now, it’s meant to cause you to feel exhaustion but there isn’t really anything suggesting it’s life threatening. Personally, I almost always told people with nonlife threatening wounds to heal on their own and mundanely treated their injuries, setting bones, suturing, etc. The wound will heal with time, it’s not worth rendering me ineffective and vulnerable to do, if it’s not serious. It was not farfetched for a cleric that healed every little wound to end up pking. One perfect example was a cleric I knew a long time ago that wanted to heal every little thing, because he believed he had this power, why should people suffer? He rped about half the time being cared for by other clerics as he was brought low by his dangerous overuse of healing magic and pked his character for just that reason. That’s the philosophy that needs to be instilled, not nowadays where every little thing is just a few emotes away from being healed and the end result is no greater than as if you just went through a heavy work out with no real cost.

 

I believe a return to these old ways or a variation thereof is a ready option for solving the problems stated in the head post. It makes healing more scarce and creates a better identity for clerics, their life is hard and they take on a number of burdens for other people, instead of the path of clericism being all reward and no punishment, and healing being as common as can be. The answer however isn’t eliminating healing magic or rendering it not worth the trouble of learning.

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The only thing wrong with healing magic is the attitude toward it and the standards of to. If holy magic is a guild locked magic it should be held to higher standards of to by the community using it and the staff. Nothing is wrong with it mechanically imo, i just dislike seeing mundane healers in the middle of healing someone and the person being healed/ a nearby cleric saying "let me heal instead because it's better". this is logical since it is a better form of healing but i think its more of an rp problem brought about by a  "meh" to culture. 

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Debate Completed

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