Jump to content

[Completed][Completed] Holy Healing Is Bad


GodEmperorFlam
 Share

Recommended Posts

8 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

You missed the point completely. You claimed that opinions are subjective, therefore no meaningful discussion can be had regarding them. I just demonstrated two examples of opinions people have where there is meaningful discussion every day. It's not a straw man, you just didn't understand the analogy. You said Holy Magic is fine for X, Y, and Z. I explained why X, Y, and Z is wrong. If you disagree, answer my explanations. If not, this is pointless and we're further cluttering a thread that was meant for discussion.

 

Or rather you fall back on your classic 180 maneuver and change what you meant so it better suits your argument. You seem to have misunderstood what I said too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

The whole of your argument seems to be based on this idea that a loud vocal minority seem to have that we should be some hardcore rp server where your first rp death is an automatic PK.

Bruh...

 

You don't need to PK on RP death to accept consequences to IC actions. My argument is that Healing Magic is a cheap way to circumvent that, at least the way it has been implemented.

 

Your other points are invalid as they're based off this false axiom, but I'll answer a few anyway.

9 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

I saw earlier that you said "blah blah blah some people don't want to rp with people who don't PK and ignore injuries that ruin characters."

 

Nobody wants to rp with people like yourself who seem to fetishize torture and inflicting injury.

You've never roleplayed with me before mate. In my two months on the server, I've never maimed or even really gone out of my way to kill anyone? And this whole connotation people like to put on dismemberment, labeling it a fetish and torture.

 

We're RPing in a medieval time period. Cutting someones hand off for stealing is the literal norm both IRL and LotC, it's not a fetish. Chopping someones limb off while in a war/combat, and leaving them to rot isn't a fetish, it's just the logical thing to do...

9 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

But others don't and the only thing that makes it tolerable is the fact that you can get it reversed through monk resurrection or holy healing.

By removing holy healing, the only thing you're going to see rise is *bleeds out* "monks brought me back to life, that rp was a waste of time as it has no effect on my persona."

Something like this can be easily reported as dodging Roleplay, especially if someone attempts to staunch the bleeding because they're dismembering them as a punishment to a crime versus for the giggles. The situation we have atm cannot be monitored.

9 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

And your whole argument of "there's no way to regulate it" doesn't fall on the magic itself. It falls on the Lt team who's job it is to regulate and enforce rules.

I'm sorry, do you realize what you just said? My argument falls on the logistics. Explain how something like this is supposed to be regulated in a way that would actually work? I'm waiting to hear it.

9 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

And besides, perhaps if it was amended to be that it would take sessions, the community through teachers with TAs could self regulate along with normal players reporting abuse.

Normal players can't be arsed to report powergaming and metagaming that DIRECTLY affects them. They're supposed to go out of their way to report something that doesn't? Alright, sure.

1 minute ago, Gladuos said:

 

Or rather you fall back on your classic 180 maneuver and change what you meant so it better suits your argument. You seem to have misunderstood what I said too.

K.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Permanent consequences only work in an environment where all characters have equal value to their players. Sadly, it's too easy to make a throwaway character to inflict consequences on long term developed characters. 

 

But I still think we should balance holy healing so it has downsides that make it more of a choice between druidic, conventional and holy, as opposed to it being the no brainer it is right now.

 

I play a druidic healer and a conventional human doctor BTW if that adds any weight to my opinion. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Any reasons for why this would be any better? Natural means can't heal a sword through the neck, why should magic be able to heal it?

Bad example. Why would you heal a fatal wound? It's called fatal for a reason. A better example would be third degree burns, which are exceptionally difficult to treat even in modern times due to trying to keep the patient stable in such a precarious state. Magic means that could be healed with significantly less risk of the patient dying from what would surely be a fatal injury on LoTC. We could also go with dangerously gangrenous wounds, magic could clear that up whereas natural means could only affect it if the reagents were enhanced by a druid.

 

40 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

This wouldn't do anything to address the issue however. People can log off for ten minutes and than log back on saying an IC day has passed.

How is this a problem with lore?

41 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Except that there is no way such a system could be regulated.

You do know what power gaming is right? It is an offense that can be reported. Seems like this is no more easily regulated than people magically getting swords or armor without receiving it irp.

44 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

And what's going to stop the injured person from just lying to be healed? Or the healer to feign ignorance and heal the injured person? This really doesn't address any of the core problems regarding healing roleplay.

Again? How is this a problem with how healing magic functions. This is just bad roleplay. Powergaming even.

47 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

You literally made my argument for me. "It's not like there's any reason not to." You're right, there is no reason not to. Your suggestion wouldn't have any impact on the current problem as not only is there no way to stop people from just roleplaying as if nothing happened after, but there is no way to regulate only people of certain faiths get healed.

Given the amount of wood elven players who outright refuse to be healed by magic? Given how Xionist think the aenguls are just slavers? This idea seems like it would actually encourage more dynamic routes in roleplay.

50 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Why is this bullshit? I'd like for you to name one reason mate. Roleplay should have consequences. If you steal something and they cut your hand/arm off, there is no reason why you should get a get of jail free card. In fact, this would allow for so much more dynamic roleplay to occur, and would likely deal with the issue of being trigger happy with dismembering people. No reason NOT to dismember anyone if you know they can get it healed. If we remove that option, people will think twice because any retaliation against them might be even more severe.

People are trigger happy to dismember because it is so hard to heal, not because it is so easy to heal. Most guards use this for serious offenders since it does require a lot of work to replace or heal.

52 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

If you don't see the problem with people having no consequences for their IC actions and being able to act like a reckless moron because they know that a cleric/ascended heal is a doorstep away, I have no words for you. Ascended healing is even worse due to the way their natural regeneration works. Somehow manages to make a lack of consequences even worse.

That is kinda the point. All the consequences fall on the caster, not the patient. Alchemy? Exact opposite! So you have two differnt medical styles ?

55 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Except this is demonstrably false? Evocations can be used to start a fire perhaps, but we have matches that function the exact same as that. Otherwise the flames just bugger off into the void. Also, that's not the purpose of Evocations at all, and you know it. It's primarily a combat magic, and I'd like for you to explain how you'd be able to do that without Evo.

I'm not actually sure how you were trying to refute this point. As for evocation just being a combat magic? Only for uncreative minds. A fire evocationist could use it to very precisely temper a blade, cook a meal, or just make pretty sparks that amuse children. I think that right there also proves that flames don't just bugger off to the void, but can have an impact on the material world.

1 hour ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

You blunder through a dungeon with reckless abandon and lose a foot. That's an ultra harsh consequence? You try to fight back against ten bandits and they remove one of your eyes to make sure you don't resist in the future. That's ultra harsh? What exactly do you want them to do? And if we want to get rid of unnecessary ultra harsh consequences, making healing magic powerful isn't the way to do it. I mean, clearly it hasn't done anything for years. Why don't we try actually implementing consequences and seeing how the community would rise up to the occasion? Crazy idea I know.

1.) No magic can regenerate limbs, only alchemy can 2.) People who want to do twisted **** irp are going to do twisted **** irp regardless of how healing works. We will just get a bunch of amputees and mutilated people. 3.) People who ignore consequences will ignore ultra-harsh consequences. They don't care. 4.) Who cares about getting rid of ulta-harsh consequences?... It may end up being **** rp, but it is still rp. Magic healing is just a way for people to deal with that rp after the fact.

1 hour ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

I'm sorry what? "Unfortunately, not everyone wishes to RP dying, so why make them?" This is a collaborative roleplay server. If you do something worthy of getting your hand cut off, not going along with the roleplay would be such a narcissistic and selfish thing to do. And someone emoting

 

*swings his sword downwards towards his wrist, attempting to make a clean cut all the way through.

 

Isn't gruesome at all?

You are misconstruing the argument here, outright changing words to fit your narrative. The point Astartes was trying to make is that some people do play villainous character who will disfigure your char in horrible ways that dramatically affect your rp and some people do not enjoy having their rp mangled for the sake of someone else. As for your example, no not gruesome at all, but having all your fingers cut off and sewn in different places is.

1 hour ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Just a tip friend, why not stay away from situations where your character is likely going to get mutilated/killed? Or at the very least attempt to approach them with some tact? TBH, everyone should PK on RP death but this is a different argument and people are way to attached to their mineman pixels to actually create quality dynamic roleplay, but at the very least roleplay out injuries properly.

When someone has it out for you, it can often be a case of either don't log in or get fucked. Not everything is the victim's fault.

1 hour ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Except I've never seen this roleplayed properly ever? Without the necessity of rolls, this is something completely arbitrary and isn't an actual consequence. I won't even mention the fact that any cleric can just resurrect and act as if nothing happened if they DO die.

As someone who rp's with clerics and various holy orders? I see this on a regular basis. With clerics, if they aren't revived in time by another cleric, it is a pk.

1 hour ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

More IC consequence dodging. IDK why people are so averse to having to deal with problems that come up IC. I promise it's fun, just try it. Pretty please?

I promise you, you're not thinking this through! There are consequences and then there is **** that just fucks up your roleplay. For the sake of argument, please assume we mean the **** that just totally fucks up someone's ability to roleplay.

1 hour ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

This argument can be extended to ANY kind of roleplay whatsoever. Do you not see the doors you're opening? Honest to god, read what you just said and analyze its implications. This can be extended to ERP, Powergaming, and ridiculous uses of Magic, Creatures, and anything else that someone might want to do. Also, just a note. Seeing IC consequences dodged and terrible slice of life on supposedly rare/dark creatures DOES hurt my enjoyment. It hurts the enjoyment of almost every GOOD roleplayer, hence the reason that some of the best roleplayers on the server have left.

Last time I address this! There are consequences, consequences that mean your character may not be able to fight or dance or hear music. Then there are the consequences that leaves your character a babbling mess, a blind,mute, and deaf mess with no hands, or leaves them so psychologically fucked (along with yourself) that you just don't want to rp the character.

 

1 hour ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

You're right. Why bother. Why bother having any consequences to anything that might happen to you on the server? I can literally think of like ten different reasons IC why someone. Reading that hurt my soul friend, it really did.

Read deeper then. If magic works like that, where you take the injury onto yourself and have no special regeneration powers, then there is no reason to use the magic in the first place. You might as well use alchemy. Remember that this is not a discussion to remove magic btw, but to improve it.

1 hour ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Except Dungeons and Dragons is a heavily monitored system that uses rolls. You've said it yourself, you prefer to avoid the use of rolls if possible. Bad example. And healing magic is often deus ex machina in like every medium of fantasy mate.

You do understand that healing magic is meant to be deus ex machina? If you can't fix that **** with alchemy then you're going to need a miracle. Now before you bring up that point again, healing magic is not necromancy and is a magic (which means it takes time to cast) so injuries that would you kill you in seconds or minutes are just going to kill you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

-snip-

     We are not here to be your personal torture dolls, just as you are not here to be our whipping post. As you have said, this is a cooperative RP environment. That means give and take on both sides. There are /pages/ now of you refusing any and all give, demanding only take in this discussion. If this is how you RP with people, I'm honestly saddened to know. We're all the heroes of our own stories, but we are but side-characters in each other's stories. Some might have antagonists, some might not. What we all need to have a mutual respect for each-other's sensitivities and desires. A respect you have repeatedly refused to show. You twist the words of those who attempt to engage in amicable debate with you to support your own arguments. Your attitude is very much "My way or the highway" and that is just now how an environment like this functions. I have been on this server since 2013. You by your own admission have been here for two months. During the past five years since I joined, I have seen many things I didn't like nor agree with, yet I didn't begrudge them the RP they wanted. That's how this works. Brow-beating and insulting people only alienates them and makes them hate you for it.

 

     This is how we get accusations of "toxicity" and "cancer." By being unwilling to meet in the middle and compromise. Just because Congress forgot how doesn't mean we have to, too. On the other end of every character is a person. Someone who is here just to have fun, and may not share your ideas on how best to do that. That's okay. That's why you politely try to work with them. Are they unwilling to work with you? Then get a GM in a calm and collected fashion and ask for help. Not to force them to your will, but to find an acceptable middle-ground. Let's use torture for instance. You want to torture someone in a horrifyingly gruesome fashion. They don't want to RP it. You get a GM to help you find the middle-ground. Said middle-ground is a fade to black, or a straight execution depending on how severe your torture is. 

     Please do remember we all what we think is best, and we naturally disagree in some fashion or another as a result. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Bruh...

 

You don't need to PK on RP death to accept consequences to IC actions. My argument is that Healing Magic is a cheap way to circumvent that, at least the way it has been implemented.

 

Your other points are invalid as they're based off this false axiom, but I'll answer a few anyway.

You've never roleplayed with me before mate. In my two months on the server, I've never maimed or even really gone out of my way to kill anyone? And this whole connotation people like to put on dismemberment, labeling it a fetish and torture.

 

We're RPing in a medieval time period. Cutting someones hand off for stealing is the literal norm both IRL and LotC, it's not a fetish. Chopping someones limb off while in a war/combat, and leaving them to rot isn't a fetish, it's just the logical thing to do...

Something like this can be easily reported as dodging Roleplay, especially if someone attempts to staunch the bleeding because they're dismembering them as a punishment to a crime versus for the giggles. The situation we have atm cannot be monitored.

I'm sorry, do you realize what you just said? My argument falls on the logistics. Explain how something like this is supposed to be regulated in a way that would actually work? I'm waiting to hear it.

Normal players can't be arsed to report powergaming and metagaming that DIRECTLY affects them. They're supposed to go out of their way to report something that doesn't? Alright, sure.

K.

-You suggested pking to rp death, and all that bullshit that nobody follows. Even those who advocate for it.

So I just grouped you up with them.

-Not everyone wants to play a cripple. So if they lose a hand, if they're willing to compromise they'll rp it out in that scenario and get it healed after. 

But once again, everytime someone gets a hand chopped off its not a guard doing that to punish a thief. It's usually some bandit or spook or some other person who has gone out of their way just to inflict harm because they can.

So you can **** off with that whole argument that people should rp the consequences. People will rp what they enjoy because they're here to have fun. If you want to complain that that ruins your own rp, don't rp with those people.

-once again, just grouping you up with people based on what you said. Some people who have little investment in their personas go out of their way to cause harm to long-term personas for the fun of it in gruesome, disgusting manners that leave the character unplayable unless they die or a holy user steps in.

People who do it for the pure enjoyment of it, seem to act in a way that fetishizes it. 

It's more than just avoiding a punishment or whatever.

-Im sorry, but people are once again going to rp their personas how they like. Rping a cripple isn't everyone's cup of tea.

-In my honest opinion, sessions should be enacted as a compromise that nobody likes. What the magic is able to achieve should be left alone. The downsides of using the magic should be adjusted in a way to balance it if that's the desire. 

Developing a regulation has nothing to do with the magic and what it can do. It falls solely on the Lt to do their job and enforce it. It literally should not determine what the magic can do and what the effects of it should be.

-Once again, regulation does not matter for what the magic should be able to do.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Tl;dr healing magic enables hug space roleplay and promotes the exact opposite of cooperative and dynamic roleplay.

 

I've got alot of thoughts and personal opinions on how horrid these magics are from my experiences as both an ET and a normal player. Skylez highlighting one of the few things I've witnessed. I've seen some tremendously horrid things in regards to powergaming healing and their magic.

 

Take the magic blackpill.

 

 

Caleb is doing what is needed to fix the barriers that have been written to stop any sort of consequential effects.

 

Also thank you Chon you made this thread really enjoyable to look through like ****. You don't get three pages of pure criticism every day.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, GrimReaper98 said:

Tl;dr healing magic enables hug space roleplay and promotes the exact opposite of cooperative and dynamic roleplay.

 

I've got alot of thoughts and personal opinions on how horrid these magics are from my experiences as both an ET and a normal player. Skylez highlighting one of the few things I've witnessed. I've seen some tremendously horrid things in regards to powergaming healing and their magic.

 

Take the magic blackpill.

 

 

Caleb is doing what is needed to fix the barriers that have been written to stop any sort of consequential effects.

 

Also thank you Chon you made this thread really enjoyable to look through like ****. You don't get three pages of pure criticism every day.

Ironic coming from the darkstalker who died repeatedly in the Dominion in axios and would march right back in the next week to do the dance all over again.

It's almost like injury and death wasn't factored into roleplay at all on your part considering you have a loophole to avoid it all.

Yet feel the need to advocate for it to apply to others.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad to see a response.

1 minute ago, Snelfma said:

A better example would be third degree burns, which are exceptionally difficult to treat even in modern times due to trying to keep the patient stable in such a precarious state. Magic means that could be healed with significantly less risk of the patient dying from what would surely be a fatal injury on LoTC. We could also go with dangerously gangrenous wounds, magic could clear that up whereas natural means could only affect it if the reagents were enhanced by a druid.

I'd be willing to secede the point that certain kinds of Healing Roleplay could be utilized to heal things that couldn't otherwise, upon thinking about it I can see the different kinds of roleplay that can open up. The current system however needs to be reworked to better facilitate that however, as it's currently broken. Healing Roleplay that "speeds up" a problem that isn't minor, I.E cuts or bruises, is almost always inherently bad. It stifles roleplay and is often a cheap way to get away with IC consequences. By ritualizing the magic and making everything require heavy roleplay, we're only doing something good. This is a roleplay server, what's wrong with having to roleplay out several things before your character gets a hand reattached or his face undisfigured after being horribly burned.

3 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

How is this a problem with lore?

Because if the lore was changed so that the Ascended in question couldn't automatically regenerate the wound, and instead had to RP out its consequences, we wouldn't have this problem.

4 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

You do know what power gaming is right? It is an offense that can be reported. Seems like this is no more easily regulated than people magically getting swords or armor without receiving it irp.

But like I said before, power gaming is something that involves interact with two people and can be clearly defined and reported. And yet, we still have lots of powergaming and people can't be arsed to report it. How is something like "X meetings need to be met or you're not healed properly" supposed to be regulated? And what makes you think that anyone will report instances of it that don't effect them, when they don't bother reporting instances of powergaming done to them.

25 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

Again? How is this a problem with how healing magic functions. This is just bad roleplay. Powergaming even.

It's a problem because a Magic system that can't deal with issues like this is flawed. It's also not really powergaming considering that unless the lore was specifically constructed to deal with this, it'd be legal.

6 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

Given the amount of wood elven players who outright refuse to be healed by magic? Given how Xionist think the aenguls are just slavers? This idea seems like it would actually encourage more dynamic routes in roleplay.

Look, in a perfect RP world, I agree that your suggestion could work. However, we're on a server that's far from that, and all suggestions need to be judged with how likely they are to work versus the best case scenario. Implementing your suggestion would only effect the small amount of people that would bother RPing this out versus the vast majority that won't, which is why we need something more substantial.

8 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

People are trigger happy to dismember because it is so hard to heal, not because it is so easy to heal. Most guards use this for serious offenders since it does require a lot of work to replace or heal.

The question is whether or not someone was justified in dismembering someone. If someone is justified, than we don't need to do anything about it, if someone is unjustified, we need to understand why. I think the amount of people that are "gore happy" is wildly inflated, and the few that perhaps are gore happy are usually horrid RPers that I and most everyone else who agrees with me would say they need to be punished.

27 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

That is kinda the point. All the consequences fall on the caster, not the patient

Except there are no consequences for Ascended because they can just regenerate wounds that would take months to heal in hours. That's a direct quote from Ascended Lore, can pull up a screenshot if you don't believe me. I think the idea of taking wounds onto yourself is a good one, and it's immediately invalidated with the regeneration.

31 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

I'm not actually sure how you were trying to refute this point.

I'm refuting his implication that arguments against healing magic are invalid because we can make the same arguments about X, Y, and Z. His analogy was wrong, by refuting it, I refuted his point.

32 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

As for evocation just being a combat magic? Only for uncreative minds. A fire evocationist could use it to very precisely temper a blade, cook a meal, or just make pretty sparks that amuse children. I think that right there also proves that flames don't just bugger off to the void, but can have an impact on the material world.

I was being quick/general, the point wasn't specifically made to talk about the applications about Evocation but to point out the fallacies in his argument.

33 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

1.) No magic can regenerate limbs, only alchemy can

Clerics can and have been regenerating hands, fingers, eyes, etc, for a while. Ascended can take on the lost limb and then regenerate it themselves.

34 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

2.) People who want to do twisted **** irp are going to do twisted **** irp regardless of how healing works. We will just get a bunch of amputees and mutilated people.

Aside from the fact that if you're putting your character in that kind of a situation you should have to deal with the IC consequences, again, this whole idea that the server is filled with gore hungry fetishists who want to mutilate everyone they see is false and could be reported for poor villany RP so they could get blacklisted.

35 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

3.) People who ignore consequences will ignore ultra-harsh consequences. They don't care.

I agree, why create a medium like Healing Magic to justify such horrible behavior though?

36 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

4.) Who cares about getting rid of ulta-harsh consequences?... It may end up being **** rp, but it is still rp.

I'm sorry but I don't see how anyone that's actually concerned with improving the RP quality on the server can say that. If you're concerned, this statement is hypocritical, if you're not, than I don't think I'd be speaking out of turn that LotC isn't the server for you.

37 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

The point Astartes was trying to make is that some people do play villainous character who will disfigure your char in horrible ways that dramatically affect your rp and some people do not enjoy having their rp mangled for the sake of someone else.

This same exact argument can be extended to people not wanting to ever, EVER, lose in RP because they don't want to give up their enjoyment for someone else. Clearly that's ridiculous, and so is Astartes argument.

38 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

When someone has it out for you, it can often be a case of either don't log in or get fucked. Not everything is the victim's fault.

If someone is doing things OOC with no RP basis, report them. That's one of the easiest reports to make and I have confidence that the GM team will punish the person at hand. If another IC character has an IC problem with your character, it's called deal with it? This is RP, characters have conflict. Are you really advocating that IC characters shouldn't have vendettas against other IC characters for 100% legitimate reasons? If you kill my characters parents, naturally they're going have it out for you, what did you expect? It's your job to deal with it IC, that's how RP happens.

40 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

As someone who rp's with clerics and various holy orders? I see this on a regular basis. With clerics, if they aren't revived in time by another cleric, it is a pk. 

I haven't seen this specific point in Cleric lore, but even if you're right, Ascended or Druids have no such problems, and that needs to be addressed.

40 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

There are consequences and then there is **** that just fucks up your roleplay. For the sake of argument, please assume we mean the **** that just totally fucks up someone's ability to roleplay. 

I literally can't think of anything that would **** someone's roleplay? Lose a limb? Creates more RP. Lose two limbs? Creates more RP. Become a quadriplegic? Creates RP. Lose your eyes? Creates RP. Give me an example of someone losing the ability to RP short of torture porn which can easily be reported?

41 minutes ago, Snelfma said:

Then there are the consequences that leaves your character a babbling mess, a blind,mute, and deaf mess with no hands, or leaves them so psychologically fucked (along with yourself) that you just don't want to rp the character.

Could you elaborate on these consequences? Your character being blind, mute, or deaf, is something that can be handled IC. Not having hands is something that can genuinely be solved IC. Having all of those things done to you is something that would qualify as super graphic or obscene RP and could be reported, and I don't think anyone is really that twisted to do these things. If they are, report them.

20 minutes ago, The Templar said:

 We are not here to be your personal torture dolls, just as you are not here to be our whipping post. As you have said, this is a cooperative RP environment. That means give and take on both sides.

Wait, what? I love how presenting reasonable arguments against Magic immediately turns me into some sort of pariah that gets off on torturing minemen pixels. I don't know who you think I am dude, but ask anyone that has EVER roleplayed with me, even people that don't like me. I'm the last person to do these kinds of things. This is just slander you're using to have to avoid addressing any of my very real points.

22 minutes ago, The Templar said:

There are /pages/ now of you refusing any and all give, demanding only take in this discussion.

...

 

You're really going to imply that every disagreement should end with compromise? What if one side is completely wrong? Actually address my point correctly and believe me I'll give; you just haven't bothered to yet...

23 minutes ago, The Templar said:

Some might have antagonists, some might not. What we all need to have a mutual respect for each-other's sensitivities and desires. A respect you have repeatedly refused to show. You twist the words of those who attempt to engage in amicable debate with you to support your own arguments.

This has been leveled against me by you and Gladuos. I've yet to see a quote where I've "twisted" anyone's words against them. Maybe we have different definitions of the word twist, IDK man. Point it out so we can see.

24 minutes ago, The Templar said:

Your attitude is very much "My way or the highway" and that is just now how an environment like this functions.

It has nothing to do with "my way." This is a discussion thread, I'm voicing my opinion backed up with evidence. Did you not want me to do the point of the thread? I don't see how anyone could be so frustrated at someone disagreeing with them.

24 minutes ago, The Templar said:

I have been on this server since 2013. You by your own admission have been here for two months. During the past five years since I joined, I have seen many things I didn't like nor agree with, yet I didn't begrudge them the RP they wanted. That's how this works. Brow-beating and insulting people only alienates them and makes them hate you for it.

I've actually been here since 2013 as well friend, I just came back two months ago. And I don't see how your experience automatically makes your argument more valid than mine? And I'd like to note, I haven't insulted a single person here...I've called ideas bad, but that is not the same as insulting someone? I disagree vehemently with some of my best friends IRL, and we've each called our ideas ****. Doesn't mean we've ever taken it personally. IDK man, this seems like more excuses to avoid actually addressing any of the points laid out.

26 minutes ago, The Templar said:

   This is how we get accusations of "toxicity" and "cancer." By being unwilling to meet in the middle and compromise.

Bro, it's a discussion. How am I going to meet you in the middle if you haven't bothered trying to answer any of my critiques....

27 minutes ago, The Templar said:

Let's use torture for instance. You want to torture someone in a horrifyingly gruesome fashion. They don't want to RP it. You get a GM to help you find the middle-ground. Said middle-ground is a fade to black, or a straight execution depending on how severe your torture is. 

Who here is advocating torture? Did you see the example emote I gave? If you read through my argument with an open mind instead of trying to look for something that automatically coincides with your beliefs, you might have.

27 minutes ago, The Templar said:

Please do remember we all what we think is best, and we naturally disagree in some fashion or another as a result. 

It's a discussion thread, we're here to critique what other people think. IDK what else I can say.

26 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

-You suggested pking to rp death, and all that bullshit that nobody follows. Even those who advocate for it.

So I just grouped you up with them.

Ight, just pointing out you were wrong. Honest mistake than.

26 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

-Not everyone wants to play a cripple. So if they lose a hand, if they're willing to compromise they'll rp it out in that scenario and get it healed after. 

Not everyone wants to lose a fight. See how that doesn't work? Yeah.

26 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

So you can **** off with that whole argument that people should rp the consequences. People will rp what they enjoy because they're here to have fun. If you want to complain that that ruins your own rp, don't rp with those people.

Some people enjoy ERP, not losing fights, playing special snow flake creatures with magical powers, etc. If we don't accept those things on the basis that they enjoy them, your argument regarding accepting things based off of enjoyment doesn't work either.

27 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

But once again, everytime someone gets a hand chopped off its not a guard doing that to punish a thief. It's usually some bandit or spook or some other person who has gone out of their way just to inflict harm because they can.

Generalization and avoiding the point.

27 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

once again, just grouping you up with people based on what you said. Some people who have little investment in their personas go out of their way to cause harm to long-term personas for the fun of it in gruesome, disgusting manners that leave the character unplayable unless they die or a holy user steps in.

I've said it before, if someone is blending OOC with IC, report them. It's one of the easiest things to prove and will definitely be punished. If you kill the best friend of a persona and they get angry and try to kill/disfigure your character, I don't see how the amount of time the persona has been around has to do with anything? You're literally arguing that X character is better/more important/RP is more valid Y character because they've been around for longer.

29 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

gruesome, disgusting manners that leave the character unplayable unless they die or a holy user steps in. 

People who do it for the pure enjoyment of it, seem to act in a way that fetishizes it. 

It's more than just avoiding a punishment or whatever.

Dude, this is against the rules. Report it. You're straw manning me so hard. NO ONE IS ADVOCATING FOR TORTURE RP. IDK how I can make it any clearer.

30 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

-Im sorry, but people are once again going to rp their personas how they like. Rping a cripple isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Losing a fight isn't everyone's cup of tea...It's collaborative, that means if someone does something IC, and goes through the RP to do with it, you respect it. How would you feel if someone invalidated your RP because they couldn't be arsed to go along with it. That's what you're suggesting.

31 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

Developing a regulation has nothing to do with the magic and what it can do. It falls solely on the Lt to do their job and enforce it. It literally should not determine what the magic can do and what the effects of it should be.

-Once again, regulation does not matter for what the magic should be able to do.

Think about the logistics of what you're saying. GM/Admin team hasn't done a 100 things because it wouldn't work. You're literally saying that X should be done regardless of whether or not it'll work because it's the right thing to do based off of mineman lore.

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:

Ironic coming from the darkstalker who died repeatedly in the Dominion in axios and would march right back in the next week to do the dance all over again.

It's almost like injury and death wasn't factored into roleplay at all on your part considering you have a loophole to avoid it all.

Yet feel the need to advocate for it to apply to others.

 

 

Died only once formally tbh, and after that I stopped interacting with the Dominion as a consequence and had some pretty fucked up mental things. All my other characters that don't have revival clauses attach to them PK on death. Otherwise I always have sort of consequence or drawback  if the situation accounts for it. I'd say even arguably my darkstalker even with a revival mechanic adhered to more consequences than any of your other characters

Link to post
Share on other sites

"muh dynamic rp"

 

It's all bullshit folks. There are groups of players out there that will use permanent injury to purposefully ruin a player base. There are players out there that want to remove any and all fantasy elements and will use permanent injury to try and achieve it. Yeah right, dynamic rp my ass, unless your RP doesn't fit my grimdark fantasy, then I might just have to retcon it because roleplaying in established lore isn't dynamic in the way that I want it. Yeah, some people want to play hug-box family slice of life RP. Yeah, get over it. Boo-hoo someone is roleplaying the way they want, better dynamically change the lore and rules to force everyone to collaborate the way that I want to. inb4 the bullshit slippery slope argument made before. If it's age appropriate and fits in the general lore and theme, then get the **** over yourself. If you want to talk about specific details about a magic that make it unfair or unbalanced, sure, let's talk about it. But don't be fooled, there is a ton of dishonesty in these kinds of discussions. Some people really don't give a **** about making magic, creatures, and anything that lies outside their grim-dark preferences effective, balanced, or fair. They only want to "r-remove" all of it. LotC's success, and ignoring the doom-sayers, LotC is an extremely successful RP server, arises partially because LotC is accommodating to almost all the different kinds of players and their tastes. LotC doesn't try to viciously force players into a certain kind of RP. This concept absolutely has to be protected and people need to understand that their preferences really cannot be allowed to hold that much power on decisions. There is a reasonable limit to everything including the very principle that I laid out but I wanted to flesh out what I've been seeing for some time now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, zaezae said:

-snip-

Nice post that has nothing to do with any of the points being discussed? If you want to rail against imaginary sleights or assign nefarious intent to people that really couldn't be arsed, that's all fine and good. Don't do it on a thread made for discussing whether or not Holy Healing Magic is bad or good. I'd be more than happy to address every single on of your points on a separate thread related to discussing this topic.

 

Edit: What's with wanting actual consequences to be roleplayed, and not wanting **** magic on the server, automatically being called "Grimdark". Flam, the head of the LT and the creator of this thread agrees with myself and the people you're associating with this "Grimdark" stereotype. I assume he and everyone else that agrees with us is some crazy fanatic that wants to ruin other peoples roleplay? Ight fam.

Edited by ChonGojDragonski
Link to post
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, ChonGojDragonski said:

Nice post that has nothing to do with any of the points being discussed? If you want to rail against imaginary sleights or assign nefarious intent to people that really couldn't be arsed, that's all fine and good. Don't do it on a thread made for discussing whether or not Holy Healing Magic is bad or good. I'd be more than happy to address every single on of your points on a separate thread related to discussing this topic.

Oh no, it's very relevant. There are dishonest and mean-spirited players that absolutely will use any permanent injury to **** with players. It's not controversial and people have openly discussed how to ruin player bases. When talking about nerfing a magic into the dirt to allow for permanent injury, yeah it becomes very relevant.  Also

Quote

Tl;dr healing magic enables hug space roleplay and promotes the exact opposite of cooperative and dynamic roleplay.

is an argument that the magic allows for a mode of roleplay that someone doesn't want to see on the server. Not that the magic takes the fun away from other people unfairly but rather it allows people to simply engage in a certain kind of roleplay that they don't like. 

 

Discussions like this almost all are based on an appeal to preference. Preference in the /way/ that other people roleplay. People bitched that some players like being straight up pointy hat wizards and use that as a reason to remove some magic. I am entirely convinced that some people approach the discussion dishonestly because they aren't interested in making magic in general better for all parties involved and instead want to shape all roleplay on the server be conducted to their liking. I don't like military RP. I don't like war RP. I don't like guard RP. I don't like raid RP. However, I will not ever advocate that these things be removed, that lore be adjusted so that I never have to witness someone else having this RP, or that rules be made in a way to prevent this RP. I've actually defended raiders in discussions about raid rules because some of the raid rules are very, very unfair to raiders. Even though I cannot stand the **** tier Rp that I find raid  roleplay to be. I do not want to prevent other players from doing the kind of RP that they want to spend their hours doing. Even if it, even rarely, it involves me. This is not true, almost at all, when discussions shift to magic, family RP, fantasy, arguably elven, or anything on this side of the server. It's "I don't like this kind of roleplay and we should just straight up remove all of it." 

 

Also chopping up posts into bite size pieces isn't good form. It separates sentences which might make more sense in the greater context. Sometimes this is done out of dishonesty or just a choice of form. But considering that you tried to make some petty "Ha, gotcha sucker!" moment because I didn't feel like scrolling up to use the quote button at the top fo the page, I have no idea about your particular intentions. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...