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_Jandy_

Comprehensive Imprisonment Reform

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The current rules of imprisonment are as follows:

 

§3.17 A player may only be held against their will for up to 3 hours of roleplay.

§3.18 A noble or leader, can be held up to 5 hours of roleplay.

§3.19 You can not be held captive for over 15 minutes without sufficient roleplay.

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The intent behind the rules are clear, to prevent people from being simply captured and locked away without getting any attention. These rules encourage the captors to continuously roleplay with their prisoners which is a good thing, nobody should just be locked away from roleplay indefinitely. 3 hours of time, in my opinion, is a very short span of time that does little to actually progress a character or encourage a player to partake in the experience of being held as a captive. Often times people may just wait out their timer until they can leave when instead their character could face a million different developmental situations that are often missed out on. The result of these minimal timers is ultimately a major disinterest in being taken as a captive as well as a major disinterest in taking a captive since it is ultimately a futile effort and as a result people tend to deal with their adversaries with a swift execution or a banishment. This execution is ultimately just as futile as any 3 hour imprisonment because there is no room for the captured character to develop from this, the execution will just send them back to the Cloud Temple where they will continue on as if nothing had ever happened. Banishment on the other hand does have a decent effect on a character by barring them from a society though ultimately it does not truly offer any way to resolve a conflict between a character and a culture. For example a whitewash Orc who is banished ultimately faces no repercussion for their actions and even through execution they will not have to face ever needing to conform no matter how much effort the Orcs were to put into trying to stop his actions. Though with a comprehensive change in the imprisonment rules the whitewash may have to realize that there are actual consequences to actions and perhaps they will change their way. Many people may be opposed to giving other players the ability to actually put a meaningful incentive towards changing their character’s behavior but ultimately it’s because they have no interest in dynamic roleplay or character development but instead put a focus on character progression. To clarify what I mean by that character development, in my own words, is for a character to be changed by the events surrounding them while alternatively character progression would be for the player to have a set vision on what they want their character to be or do and then ignore their surroundings while tunnel visioning on their end goal for the character. Of course the latter example makes roleplay less meaningful and is primarily allowed because there are no repercussions for any actions on this server that can change a character in any way and hopefully imprisonment roleplay can strongly encourage that.

 

For the above reasons I would like to suggest the following amendments to the imprisonment rules:

  • Two kinds of jails or prisons will exist, nation sanctioned jails  and personal/guild sanctioned jails.

 

  • Nation sanctioned jails may detain a character for a 5 day maximum (unless the captive wishes to remain longer) before the prisoner is allowed to soul stone away.

 

  • Personal or Guild sanctioned jails may detain a character for a 2 day maximum (unless the captive wishes to remain longer) before the prisoner is allowed to soul stone away.

 

  • Nation sanctioned jails may be demoted to a Personal or Guild sanctioned jail if they are found to have participated in inflicting a poor level of roleplay quality based off of the following margins:

    • Amount of roleplay made available to the prisoner

    • Quality of roleplay made available to the prisoner

    • Building quality of the cell or jail.

 

  • To appeal for a Personal or Guild sanctioned jail (formerly Nation sanctioned jail) to regain it’s status they must wait at least 2 weeks to contact a GM Manager and explain how they have modified their imprisonment experience so that it will not be demoted once again. The manager has full discretion to approve or deny this appeal.

 

  • Successful raids that were led with the intention to free a specific prisoner do not need to make any attempt to unlock things to free the prisoner. A GM will unlock access to the prisoner upon request.

 

The incentive to provide a higher quality of roleplay begets the opportunity to better use the imprisonment system. I want to make it clear now that people who are running a Personal/Guild sanctioned jail poorly should still be reported for poor villainy roleplay even if they are not technically the villain in the situation. Even guards, specifically the person who imprisoned a character, are responsible for providing a high quality of roleplay and if they are unable to do so then they are required to inform the player of such a situation and from there proceed accordingly. For example:

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Guard: “Hey, I know that I’m imprisoning your character now but there is a large likelihood that I will not be able to log on tomorrow and I can’t guarantee that other guards will interact with you, how would you like to proceed?”

 

Prisoner: “Well I’d really prefer if I didn’t have to just sit here all day tomorrow with no RP, would you mind if I SS’d out at around 4 EST tomorrow if nobody engages in RP with me?”

 

Guard: “That sounds fair to me, have a nice night and here is my discord if you would like to get in contact with me. WhiteRose#2013”

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Ideally imprisonment roleplay may involve many things such as:

Monitoring prisoners, providing for prisoners, discussion between guards and prisoners, discussion between fellow prisoners, an attempt to rehabilitate prisoners, conflict between members of the jail, interaction between members of the general population and the prisoner, internal conflict and it’s appropriate expression for the prisoner, the ability to escape the jail, meeting new people, incentivizing prisoners for good behavior, stripping a prisoner of their identity to find who they are at their core, etc...

 

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I personally think that it’s worth noting that this could also add a level of depth to raids where it may give them more meaning to either try to capture somebody or free an ally while it may also give an actual consequence for failed raids. Of course these rules aren’t perfectly fleshed out and many people may entirely hate the sentiment behind them but that is alright and I’d love to hear criticism or ideas. I hope people understand the value of RP that this could bring forth or at the very least can acknowledge the downsides that the current system presents. Thanks!


 

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1 hour ago, _Jandy_ said:

Guard: “Hey, I know that I’m imprisoning your character now but there is a large likelihood that I will not be able to log on tomorrow and I can’t guarantee that other guards will interact with you, how would you like to proceed?”

 

Prisoner: “Well I’d really prefer if I didn’t have to just sit here all day tomorrow with no RP, would you mind if I SS’d out at around 4 EST tomorrow if nobody engages in RP with me?”

 

Guard: “That sounds fair to me, have a nice night and here is my discord if you would like to get in contact with me. WhiteRose#2013”

 

You're too cute to think that this is something that anyone ever would say here. Not a single swear word in sight!

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I remember playing on a largely popular GTA: San Andreas roleplay server. If you committed criminal acts and were caught, you could expect up to 24 hours of in-game time, lock up. This meant that gangs, criminals, etc. were very keen on not being caught. Though even if you did get caught and arrested, because of the long jail-timers, there were usually other people in there with you, to roleplay and interact with. I'm not saying we should implement anything this severe (or maybe?), but I feel like, at the moment on LoTC, any action you take in roleplay, is largely consequence-free.

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 Overall a massive +1 from me for idea. Captive RP is being a bit weird at the moment, as people try to rush it just to avoid having the issue with someone SS'ing out due to lack of RP provided (What I totally understand).

 

 So first of all I didn't see if you addressed the "Can ss out if no RP provided". Thinking of it, I would consider pushing it to half hour, but RP that follows has to be something more than just "Ohhh someone stole your sweet roll" or "I used to be an adventurer like you!"

 

 I would also like for those rules to state a bit more firmly on fact of for example whether gladiator approach to imprisoned people will be acceptable and so on.

 

 Except for that, great job!

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I don't like the staff dictating a nation / non nation prison. But I really like the 5 day timer. With this we would see a lot more rescue raids that spawned out of rp. And some really nice character development as characters would no longer just be executed. 

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This sounds great in theory, with relatively active guards and other inmates to keep you company for roleplay.  Would've definitely worked in an active city, like Adelburg. But at this point in time we have no city that is consistently active, so maybe less time (three days?) would work better.

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My only concern is that prisons could be used to target OOC enemies instead of RP enemies. As long as there’s enough staff intervention to prevent people getting locked up for no reason other than OOC feuds, I’m fine with this.

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4 hours ago, Wulfery said:

 

 So first of all I didn't see if you addressed the "Can ss out if no RP provided". Thinking of it, I would consider pushing it to half hour, but RP that follows has to be something more than just "Ohhh someone stole your sweet roll" or "I used to be an adventurer like you!"

 

 I would also like for those rules to state a bit more firmly on fact of for example whether gladiator approach to imprisoned people will be acceptable and so on.

To address your initial point I think that the timer of no rp would be counter intuitive since as soon as a guard logs off to go to sleep the prisoner is gonna be turning on their stopwatch.  
Next the point over wanting immunity to imprisonment for minor crimes is something that I don't think should particularly be upheld by rules. In my opinion I think that it would stand to be an IC issue, for example if Krugmar were to lock up any folks who simply trespassed then that may be something that other nations (the homes of the imprisoned folk) would want to address. Though if this were to be primarily used for the Personal/Guild sanctioned jails and you suspect OOC targeting you could report such but ultimately so long as the level of roleplay provided is generally acceptable then it seems like something to just coast out and try to enjoy.

Lastly I don't think that rules against or condoning gladiatorial combat quite fit here. I'll admit that I hadn't even thought of it but it should ultimately still follow the laid out requirements for any other prison, providing good rp that the captors are putting rp into on a consistent basis.

22 minutes ago, NotEvilAtAll said:

My only concern is that prisons could be used to target OOC enemies instead of RP enemies. As long as there’s enough staff intervention to prevent people getting locked up for no reason other than OOC feuds, I’m fine with this.

Even if it's OOC targeting you can still report poor villainy or call for moderator intervention if they fail to provide a decent quality of roleplay on a consistent level.

36 minutes ago, SuperDuckyGamer said:

This sounds great in theory, with relatively active guards and other inmates to keep you company for roleplay.  Would've definitely worked in an active city, like Adelburg. But at this point in time we have no city that is consistently active, so maybe less time (three days?) would work better.

Thanks for the feedback and I think there are certainly ways to go about imprisonment RP that isn't strictly reliant on a guard force. I think that RP can be divided into two categories which are RP between multiple characters and RP between your character and an external influence. So to give some examples of what I mean I would say that guards could generally avoid issues where a character goes for long stretches of time without RP with other folks (assuming the guard force can't hold their hand the entire time) by permitting roleplay between many prisoners or even by setting up Stocks or a Pillory in the city itself. Alternatively I think that guards could leave the prisoner with things such as a book to write in or a book to read. With those examples the player can still engage in expressing how their character would react to their imprisonment by writing about it or alternatively if they are given books to read they may yet be developing as a character by learning new things or being encouraged to internalize a pattern of thought that is provided by the group or state oppressing them. Of course these example aren't the only possible solutions, just simple idea to illustrate the point so that hopefully you can best understand a few of the available opportunities that this system can still provide given that there is a largely failing guard force. 

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Copy and pasting my response to your status update from earlier;

 

I’ve thought about this a lot, to the point where last map, I assisted in the creation of an imperial prison for a short time in Johannesburg. We had a holding cell, five cells above ground, about ten cells in the lower floors, four solitary confinement chambers, faculty offices, a clinic, a courtyard, storage chambers, and even a laboratory. Our prison was very successful, but thats only because crime in Johannesburg was abnormally rampant, so we had a lot of opportunities to arrest a variety of criminals. Most of them enjoyed the short term captivity, and there were even some asking if prison RP was a long term goal of ours. If we enforced more rigorous soulstone and /d20 rules for imprisonment, I think that the people who would want to participate in prison RP — which seems to be an unexpectedly large base — would actually be eager to play some brand of criminal, not to mention that additional criminals serving an IRP year long sentence or so would also experience the prison RP. 

Not only would suggested reforms bring about fun and dynamic prison RP, it’d make more functional sense for select nations.

 

My single qualm with this imprisonment system isn’t the proposed change in the rules, but instead the practical implementation. I personally believe there ought to be only a few nation prisons, two or three at most, where allied nations share facilities. That way, we can centralize criminal detainees so that players aren’t forced to just RP with one other cell mate and a guard for a few days. This could also incentivize us to hire more ‘round-the-clock guards, hire players from different time zones to be guardsmen, maybe even reform our broken economy. If we want to truly make prison RP a reality, then we need to focus mainly on LotC’s economy and creating consequences of both our physical and political actions. There’s a lot of sociological and economic theories that the administration should consider, i.e. creating resource scarcity, to inflate our currency, to make poor people actually feel poor, etc. However, that might be a discussion for the future.

 

To make meaningful prison RP, the aforementioned elements are crucial. But this reform to imprisonment RP is a good start. Take my +1

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9 minutes ago, Papa Liam said:

I personally believe there ought to be only a few nation prisons, two or three at most, where allied nations share facilities. That way, we can centralize criminal detainees so that players aren’t forced to just RP with one other cell mate and a guard for a few days. This could also incentivize us to hire more ‘round-the-clock guards, hire players from different time zones to be guardsmen

don't give away my plans bro, thanks

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Maybe make it so that captives need to be rescued? Either ransomed, negotiated for or broken free? Having them able to just use a 'get out of jail for waiting a few hours' card is dumb. If they've got a second persona, their captured persona cant just be allowed to SS out. They should RP with their captors at a time when captive and captor are both free. This would lead to a more varied range of prisoner roleplay as people make efforts to mount break-out attempts, negotiate for their allies or engage in the sheer bravado of leaving them to die.

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1 minute ago, KeatonUnbeaten said:

Maybe make it so that captives need to be rescued? Either ransomed, negotiated for or broken free?

This is a generally poor idea in my opinion because it could be a way to indefinitely detain, which shouldn't be the goal, players and it may specifically bring a great level of harm to newer players who aren't involved with a nation, family or guild that would go about helping to free them. 

 

3 minutes ago, KeatonUnbeaten said:

Having them able to just use a 'get out of jail for waiting a few hours' card is dumb. If they've got a second persona, their captured persona cant just be allowed to SS out. They should RP with their captors at a time when captive and captor are both free. This would lead to a more varied range of prisoner roleplay as people make efforts to mount break-out attempts, negotiate for their allies or engage in the sheer bravado of leaving them to die.

I think you are agreeing with my proposition based off of these points.

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27 minutes ago, _Jandy_ said:

This is a generally poor idea in my opinion because it could be a way to indefinitely detain, which shouldn't be the goal, players and it may specifically bring a great level of harm to newer players who aren't involved with a nation, family or guild that would go about helping to free them. 

 

Obviously it shouldn't apply to new players who have nobody to back it up. I had in mind nobles and important figures / persons, who would have people immediately moving to save them. Also, I don't think the detainment should be indefinite but it should be way longer than 3 or 5 hours.

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1 minute ago, KeatonUnbeaten said:

Also, I don't think the detainment should be indefinite but it should be way longer than 3 or 5 hours.

I'm not sure you've read the post entirely.

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