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7.0 Annoucement!

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Lets say you did allow all the human vassal factions who might meet active status to get land at the same size as a main racial nation. Lets say that comes out to 5, 4 vassal factions, one capital. That totals out to 200000 square blocks of land pre claimed by one faction, along with 28,125 square blocks of pre designed city cores. That’s ridiculous. The fact is we as a server have always had an issue with nations taking up massive chunks of land and yet often failing to make full use of it in any justifiable way. 

 

I only use the human faction in this because it would likely be the largest beneficiary from a change in the rules

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12 minutes ago, Kanrath said:

  The reason they won’t let vassal factions claim nation status is because it will result in massive chunks of land being claimed by various vassal factions, causing large scale overbuild. By restricting it, it prevents say the human faction from having 7 different cities at the start who all technically obey the human faction leader compared to say the dwarves who might say have 1 or 2. Considering the size each nation gets 7 human land claims would mean 280000 blocks of claimed land. That would be ridiculous. As well as 39375 of pre built land at the start, again defeating the purpose of much of the new rules for 7.0

 

You just spouted utter garbage. First of all, no one is asking for all the vassals of Humanity to be given land, you are creating an easily defeated straw man by stating such. If you read the complaints from the settlements like Haense, Nordengrad, or Belvitz, is that all of them were super active prior to joining the Empire of Man and still are super active, more active than most other nations, even more active than a combination of the nations, and being told ‘sorry you will not get land’ in spite of one of the aforementioned vassals being a nation in itself (both IC nation and earned the OOC nation title), is an absolute spit in the face of the people who put their time and effort to create what they did.

 

Here is a fun thought experiment, you break away from the dwarven nation and put a lot of time, and effort into making a second dwarven nation. After months pass, and you have a very active playerbase, something happens which makes you want to unify the dwarves under a singular empire banner again but you want to keep your own kingdom, which is fine. So both you, and the capital of the empire, are super active, then suddenly this post comes out. You’d be absolutely outraged that the time you put into this has been reduced to absolute nothing.

 

I’ll reiterate, no one is asking for all the vassals of the Empire of Man to be given nation plots, and to twist our pleas into that is simply disingenuous. All we are asking is that the active ones that rival nations, such as Belvitz and Nordengrad, and the nations that happen to be vassals, such as Haense, are judged fairly and without bias, and not simply thrown out because ‘they are vassals’. There is a reason people flock to these places, because they like the culture, and removing this will not magically make them go to other nations, they will simply form up away from everyone which is detrimental, or even worse, you’ll have people quit.

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I think I edited my post right before you posted, so there’s a bit of a disconnect between posts.

 

One thing I think people are missing is the 200x200 is just the city, that’s it. Add to that the land each plot would have around it ((though they didn’t explain how they will be handling the land outside the city so this is just theoretical, for all we know each city may only get that 200x200 city plot at the start and have to make due, or get a 200x200 city plot and then another 400 blocks each way for land) for things like farms, forts, order/guild castles and such your talking a lot of area over all. Now while a vassal faction that meets activity could likely keep a 200x200 city busy well enough, what about that land around it? Will it be left mostly alone with some roads and little taverns, or will it be like prior maps populated by numerous keeps/castles for various orders and such splitting the player base of that vassal faction away from their city. You may claim that your factions land has 131 players, but that doesn’t help if those 131 players are split over a massive area to personal forts ect. I worry that by giving each faction that meets requirements but is at the same time a vassal you could end up with the same issue we have seen other maps where forts and keeps have split the rp away from major cities leaving the total area perhaps well populated, but each place in and of itself feeling empty.

 

    I would think a possible to give each faction a city land, sure, the trick is handling the overall plot of land. Would each faction city bid for a full plot, or would perhaps each vassal faction be able to build for attachment plots, which have a lot less general use land, but still more then enough for a full sized city at even around 200x200. 

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6 minutes ago, Kanrath said:

I think I edited my post right before you posted, so feel free to re read it. And nothing I posted was about faction cities that are non vassal, which meet the activity check. They more then deserve their land (Old Alras player here, I would never never argue that people who work for it don’t deserve it) just that if you have willingly become part of an overall faction or unwillingly, to be expected to be given the same rights and privileges of the nation capital is presumptuous. Tha’ts not to say there isn’t a way to give them land at the start, simply that expecting the same treatment as the core city isn’t reasonable. You could easily halve the size of land vassal faction cities get and make the demand they get land much more reasonable, or take some similar action to reduce the impact of multiple secondary claims would have on the map and player base at the start.

 

The more population you have, the more land is needed to support that.

 

I don’t see why groups that rival the activity of many nations should be restricted territory-wise due to being a vassal.

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44 minutes ago, Kanrath said:

Lets say you did allow all the human vassal factions who might meet active status to get land at the same size as a main racial nation. Lets say that comes out to 5, 4 vassal factions, one capital. That totals out to 200000 square blocks of land pre claimed by one faction, along with 28,125 square blocks of pre designed city cores. That’s ridiculous. The fact is we as a server have always had an issue with nations taking up massive chunks of land and yet often failing to make full use of it in any justifiable way. 

 

I only use the human faction in this because it would likely be the largest beneficiary from a change in the rules


No, what is ridiculous is the fact that nations that proclaim that they “”deserve”” a nation spot is being out-shined by city-states, that is the real ridiculous nature of it. Vassal by all terms is a label, it doesn’t have any mechanic form to it, the nation of Haense is both an in-character nation and an out of character nation, meaning they put in a crap tonne of work to get that status. From what you claim, simply because they took on the title of a vassal of the Empire of Man, due to wishing to unite the human race, they should not be given land which is absolutely ass-backwards. You still keep using a straw man of saying ‘lets say four vassal and one capital’, no this is not what I am asking for and you clearly are not reading what people are saying.

 

If there are seven nation slots available, then allow vassals which rival nation-tier activity compete for it. No one is asking to be spoonfed, we are asking to be treated like other nations (Haense specifically, since we are a nation). Stop twisting words, damn.

 

19 minutes ago, Kanrath said:

I think I edited my post right before you posted, so feel free to re read it. And nothing I posted was about faction cities that are non vassal, which meet the activity check. They more then deserve their land (Old Alras player here, I would never never argue that people who work for it don’t deserve it) just that if you have willingly become part of an overall faction or unwillingly, to be expected to be given the same rights and privileges of the nation capital is presumptuous. That’s not to say there isn’t a way to give them land at the start, simply that expecting the same treatment as the core city isn’t reasonable. You could easily halve the size of land vassal faction cities get and make the demand they get land much more reasonable, or take some similar action to reduce the impact of multiple secondary claims would have on the map and player base at the start. My issue is that so far the only argument I’ve seen is “Give us land” with few real solutions to make it reasonable to do so and doing so would put a lot of demand on the map the playerbase and mod/admin team. 

 

As for LC, glad to see that go. When it comes to freebuild its a win/loose unfortunately, its difficult for staff to really focus enough time into it to keep it healthy, but at the same time the playerbase can be pretty toxic to freebuilds, good or bad. It does however give those people who just are not comfortable with the core rp styles of the main nations a place to get away from them.

 

I didn’t mention non vassal states, you clearly have never role-played as a human and it shows through your utter ignorance here. Humans vassalizing under an empire isn’t at all a statement on their activity or their playerbase, the culture of humans is to be united against the world, it’s ingrained into their being. Just because there is a title of ‘Empire of Man’ doesn’t make Haense any less of a nation. You’re issue isn’t that the only argument is ‘give us land’, your issue is that you are refusing to actually read anything that is written just so you can moan about whatever you want, it’s pitiful.

 

Yes, I am defensive, yes I am annoyed. I have good reason to be, working hard on a nation just for it to be thrown away simply because some players who have NEVER played humans before telling us that ‘being a vassal means you have no rights’ is absolute horse-**** and I wont stand for it. 

 

GOD ABOVE, I never thought I would see the day that you have to argue that NATIONS WHO ARE ACTIVE SHOULD BE GIVEN NATION PLOTS IN A MAP CHANGE. Haense is a vassal of the Empire of Man, but they are also a certified NATION, being a vassal does not remove them being a VERY ACTIVE NATION. Belvitz and Nordengrad being VERY ACTIVE GROUPS does not make them any less, if anything it makes them more than the SUBPAR INACTIVE NATIONS AND GROUPS.

 

 

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 I’m more then well aware of how the human nation thinks, which is “humanity against the world” and its been that way for a very long time. I’ve never claimed you deserve nothing, simply that some reasonable give and take has to happen before we simply decide on the issue. And this isn’t directed just at the human nation, I’m simply using it as it is the most extreme example as it stands. I’d be using the dwarves if it was them who had numerous vassal factions, but its not.  Its clear your taking this personally, and I’m sorry if you see this as an attack on the human factions but its not, its an argument against the idea in general that we give large plots of land to vassal factions that meet activity(Vassal not being a title but in fact a state of being a person or country in a subordinate position to another.)

 

  Could they each have a city of their own? Sure. ((And again remember that 200x200 is JUST the capital plot, we have no idea what the size the end area will be that each nation has control over, it could be just that 200x200 at the start or may be larger)) But we have to also consider expansion and builds outside just the city. Too much land given to one racial faction and we end up with prior issues like expansionism where there are multiple forts/keeps/castles draining the player base away from the main cities. Say you took 40000 and multiplied it by every approved nation (Assuming 1 human, dwarven, 2 elven((possibly 1, not exactly sure how this will work out)), 1 orc, 1 halfing ((perhaps)) and 1 secondary non racial faction capital for a total of 7 nation plots.) and a peak time player base of (once the new map smell wears off) 200 your talking for those cities alone 280000 square blocks at 1400 square blocks per player (A 38x38 plot of land). That’s a lot of space to try to keep even the semblance of activity.  Is this to say its impossible? No of course not, just that it will be a struggle and that perhaps there is a better solution out there.

 

And that’s not taking into account people playing in freebuild, or those who rarely leave cloud temple

 

  But say its more (which from the wording I’m going to assume its quite a bit more) , say instead of 7 its 12, and you allow each faction, vassal or not, that meets requirements to bid and you end up with 12 faction capitals at 200x200. 

 (With a bidding order of racial capitals first, then non racial/vassal. This being done to ensure at least each race that meets activity has 1 capital). Now yer talking 480000 square blocks of pre claimed nation land for a server that at peak hits say 250 for the first month or so of 7.0’s release and then reduces to the low 200s/high 190s or so on peak once the new map smell wears out. Your talking nearly 1 45x45 plot of land per player just in nation land alone, again not taking into account people living in freebuild.

 

It just seems like that’s an unreasonable demand to put on the player base to try to keep that much land active

 

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17 minutes ago, Kanrath said:

 I’m more then well aware of how the human nation thinks, which is “humanity against the world” and its been that way for a very long time. I’ve never claimed you deserve nothing, simply that some reasonable give and take has to happen before we simply decide on the issue. And this isn’t directed just at the human nation, I’m simply using it as it is the most extreme example as it stands. I’d be using the dwarves if it was them who had numerous vassal factions, but its not.  Its clear your taking this personally, and I’m sorry if you see this as an attack on the human factions but its not, its an argument against the idea in general that we give large plots of land to vassal factions that meet activity(Vassal not being a title but in fact a state of being a person or country in a subordinate position to another.) Could they each have a city of their own? Sure. ((And again remember that 200x200 is JUST the capital plot, we have no idea what the size the end area will be that each nation has control over, it could be just that 200x200 at the start or may be larger)) But we have to also consider expansion and builds outside just the city. Too much land given to one racial faction and we end up with prior issues like expansionism where there are multiple forts/keeps/castles draining the player base away from the main cities. Say you took 40000 and multiplied it by every approved nation (Assuming human, dwarven, 2 elven((possibly 1, not exactly sure how this will work out)), 1 orc, 1 haling ((perhaps)) and 2 secondary non racial faction capitals.) and a peak time player base of 230 your talking for those cities alone 320000 square blocks at 1391 square blocks per player. That’s a lot of space to try to keep even the semblance of activity.  Is this to say its impossible? No of course not, just that it will be a struggle and that perhaps there is a better solution then simply saying any faction that meets activity checks should get 200x200.

 

And that’s not taking into account people playing in freebuild, or those who rarely leave cloud temple

 

 

 

Why do the dwarves not live with the elves? What about the orcs living with the humans? One word, culture. Haense (which I will focus on) is completely different culturally speaking to those of Caroulstadt, the capital of the Empire of Man. The big I put in both bold and underline is what I am touching on, because you said that vassals should not get large plots of lend even if they hit activity. So, where do you think the misplaced Haensefolk will go? I can assure you the majority of them would not simply kick the dirt and submit to live in the new capital of the Empire. In fact, I know for a fact that a good portion of the playerbase will simply up and quit. Have you ever considered why Haense is very active? Because it offers a unique experience of Human role-play that you will not find elsewhere, we aren’t imperials but we aren’t full-blown Highlandic. Have you ever considered why Haense vassalized? It has nothing to do with people submitting to the will of another, it’s about uniting the human people, but of course you would know more about this than someone actively working in the system. Also, Haense does well living a distance away from the capital, because there have been massive conflicts between the playerbases, and this will literally cause more strife out of character. Man, I sure do look forward to the ****-talking, aha! 

 

Clearly you are not going to move from your stance, and I refuse to budge a single inch from mine, on a matter of principle. I’m sorry but you seem to be quite misinformed about how the current climate of the server is, or how the players have been recently, especially when you assume that the halflings would be getting a plot? They’ve not had one in map start for three years. 

 

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My final note is very simple. 

 

Either this changes, or people are forced to rebel from the Empire on an out of character decision due to staff enforcement of a ridiculous decision, thus causing unnecessary heated in-character politics and ultimately causing more out of character strife, purely because having the TITLE of vassal is in your name. Absolutely shameful.

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On 10/12/2018 at 8:58 AM, SeventhCircle said:

 

 

Nation Placement

Nations who will be receiving land in the next map will be invited to take part in our land auction, where we will ‘auction’ off pre-selected plots of land on the next map. We’ve created a long list of plots that meet the requirements to host a nation on it. Plots were chosen specifically for their terrain features as well as their distance from Cloud Temple.

 

Nation/Group Requirements for Placement

To be considered for nation status on the next map, you must meet the following requirements.

-Pass and meet an active status on the current map. (Post Soon on how this is being done)

-Be a fully independent settlement.

-Declared as a nation or a city-state in RP.

 

These rules have been decided to provide an equal opportunity for current nations and freebuild settlements to receive a nation placement within the next map. However, we have made a few changed such as preventing vassals, who this map have nation status, from qualifying.

 

This has been done because we believe that while it makes sense for a group to hold onto their nation status during the same map they got it on, we do not believe it should be passed between maps. To offer some form of compensation to groups who have become vassals and whom will not be carrying over their nation status. Each vassalized group with nation status that also reaches activity checks will grant their Overlord’s a title next to their purchased plot’s tile. With a smaller regional capital region being granted to them (130 x 130).

 

Nation Construction

Limited Creative is gone and is not coming back as a viable solution. So for 7.0 we’ve decided to implement a more unique solution. Each Nation Captain will be granted a 75 x 75 area of their city which will be pasted in DAY 1.

😛

Nation placement:

How does this make any sense for roleplay? Genuine question too: What if a group wants a plot that isn’t “pre-selected”?

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Group requirements:

  1. Unless the active check is based on the entire time a place has existed on the map...I can see people abusing this by just afk logging in during the activity checks you’ll be doing.
  2. Human settlements can’t really be a fully independent settlement for the fear of being warclaimed. What of Nordengrad and Haense, which are both active in their own right but not “fully independent”? I think someone else mentioned it but to my knowledge Haense/Nordengrad being ‘next to’ their ‘Overlord’? would make no sense. Nordengrad is All-Father, Haense has their own justice system and a big RP community who enjoy being further away from the other humans. Anyone is free to correct me on any wrong points. I am but a Salvus Shield at heart, I don’t follow modern day politics.
  3. See B

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Nation construction:

So what I’m gathering is....staff decided everyone spending 1-3 weeks grinding to gather materials to finish the rest of their build would be better than just giving everyone LC for 3-4 days and full access to finish their build right off the bat and get to roleplaying?

 

 

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I think the no LC is mostly a try it and see how it goes change as well as an attempt to geta way from LC which has caused serious issues int he past with people abusing it and various glitches. A number of players for a long time have argued that giving LC reduces the investment each player feels in a nation, since you can’t give most of the nation playerbase LC or risk serious issues, meaning only a select group of people really put any effort into the city build. 

 

And its not like people don’t rp when building a city without LC (Or I hope they do at least) but really who knows how it will work out. Perhaps day one it will be a total mess and they will change it to LC, though it does seem they really want to get away from it due to the bugs and dupe/glitches people have abused with it

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1 hour ago, Kanrath said:

I think the no LC is mostly a try it and see how it goes change as well as an attempt to geta way from LC which has caused serious issues int he past with people abusing it and various glitches. A number of players for a long time have argued that giving LC reduces the investment each player feels in a nation, since you can’t give most of the nation playerbase LC or risk serious issues, meaning only a select group of people really put any effort into the city build. 

 

And its not like people don’t rp when building a city without LC (Or I hope they do at least) but really who knows how it will work out. Perhaps day one it will be a total mess and they will change it to LC, though it does seem they really want to get away from it due to the bugs and dupe/glitches people have abused with it

When I think of human cultures I think of Nordengrad, Renatus, and Haense as being the most distinctly different from each other. Haense and Renatus have the same religion but to my knowledge the tone of their roleplay and politics are different. The same goes for Nordengrad, except it has it’s own religion on top of that.

 

If people feel less invested in a nation because someone else didn’t spend 20 hours a day grinding materials to fix it up then maybe they have other reasons for feeling that way. If I recall correctly, in Anthos nations built their cities before the map was switched to and no one suffered for it.

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admins shouldnt be the one handing out land to empire vassals it should be the empire. Just give us back charters if the devs still dont have territories finished by then. But dont ever add freebuild back.

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