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Counting of Elves (Results!)

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8 hours ago, Aythyinae said:

First I would like to thank @VonEbs for organising this census and having the results presented in such a good way. I have always enjoyed discussion on the greater Elven racial well-being and future. I think there are some very interesting things to take from the census, and I would like to poke at a few particular points made in the thread above. I have had plenty of discussion about this with different Elven profiles these last months.


It isn’t surprising to see people talk about an unified Elven state – they have done that forever – I have done that forever. There has almost always been at least 1 multi-racial Elven state project like Malinor and the Dominion of Malin in the realm, but they have never succeeded. While sometimes, the failure was likely caused by poor leadership or the rare occasion that the Haelun’or leader was competent, I think we can agree that the overarching reason why it fails is different. Elves are not ONE people. 


Unless you water down all the different cultures that the Elves possess, creating a harmonious (emphasis on harmonious here) Elven multi-racial state is impossible, and some people do not want to water down their cultures. I would argue that the [subracial] cultures are what makes Elven RP interesting to begin with. Without Druidic, Mali’fenn, Mali’ame, Mali’ker or Mali’thill culture, Elves have just been pointy-eared Humans. The only Elven non-multi-racial state has the highest satisfaction among their players, if we go off of the census. To me, that is evidence that there is interest in High Elven culture and the strengthening of it, rather than watering it down to be able to live with other races and I will therefore continue my work in doing so.


This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t cooperate, no in fact, we should, but not to the cost of the cultures. I therefore have opposed and will do so in the future, all attempts at creating Elven states which relegates the subraces into districts, parts of a larger Elven city, as Caras Eldar does. High Elven RP cannot properly function if we have to share our tavern with Druids, Snow Elves or some interbred half-elf-half-orc – it just isn’t going to stay harmonious for long. 


My solution has always been to have properly sovereign and segregated settlements after culture and race, but who cooperate and assist each other in an overarching Council structure, where all Elven races have equal say. Dimaethor Visaj calls it the ‘one-race-one-state’-policy. 


Love to continue this discussion. I am Ankan#7215 on Discord if anyone has anything they would rather say privately.

I would agree that cultural distinctness is incredibly important for who the elves are, but as you mentioned, there are other ways of unity. Political unity with internal autonomy and separate cities divided along subracial lines would satisfy a large portion of the elven playerbase, reflected by the answers in the open-ended question that largely call for unity but also for maintaining the distinct nature of the subraces.

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12 hours ago, Omolon said:

Some playerbases did not respond to this census as much as others. I know for a fact that this is the case, because some elven nations did not put this in their announcements chat and did not ask people to respond to it, whilst some nations did. This census is biased toward those who actually asked for their playerbases to respond. @VonEbs Can we have the numbers? Let's see how many people responded for each nation.

I mean, I am not hiding how many responses were recieved for each nation, you can simply take the percentage and multiply by the n, 110, to get those numbers. However, to simplify that, I will post the actual counts below.




11 hours ago, iMattyz said:

I get the impression that this is not a very rigorous representation of the state of things. I’ve been in many Elven chats, and not once has anyone posted this. Hell, I didn’t even know it existed. Naturally, since Discord is the main way these things spread in lieu of continuous forum posts, the results are naturally going to be unrepresentative.


I think if you took a random slice of 100 Elven players on lotc and made them fill the same thing without any promotion antics, the results would be a lot different. We need the absolute numbers as well, as it could well be 20 players filling this out.


On the other hand it could be perfectly correct and it could just be my anti-Snelven and Helven bias is knifing me in the arse.

I don’t appreciate your insinuations about my motives here and your accusations of dishonesty and blatant falsification. I whispered in game for multiple members of Gladewynn leadership to see if they could post this in their discord and did not receive interest or even a response from any of them. The original post was the top post on the elf rp subforum for a week, if people are claiming ignorance that it was going on, that says a lot about how active the playerbase is in terms of actual RP  as opposed to haunting OOC discords. I have also said that the full data and the open ended responses could be requested over PM, which only one person has done, but you would know this if you had actually read my post.


One of the main complaints people had about the current state of the elves is the toxicity. The fact that you feel the need to attack me and basically call me a liar for posting the results of this is more evidence of what is wrong here, and why things won’t be fixed.

Edited by VonEbs

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imagine ignoring a census and then complaining about the results while having blatantly not even read the results post lal

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@VonEbs I have been away from the server for a long time and it was good to see where the Elven populace stood. Thanks for taking the time to make the poll and gather the data from said poll. 

In regard to all the butt-hurt commentors, maybe instead of insulting the people who try to understand the populace of the Elven players and try to get information about them, try actually participating instead of making biased assumptions and hateful remarks that such and such group never had this posted in their discord chats. Be productive to make the elven populace strong instead of complaining that numbers are flawed when you failed to particpate in such a poll.

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6 hours ago, Aeldrin said:

I would agree that cultural distinctness is incredibly important for who the elves are, but as you mentioned, there are other ways of unity. Political unity with internal autonomy and separate cities divided along subracial lines would satisfy a large portion of the elven playerbase, reflected by the answers in the open-ended question that largely call for unity but also for maintaining the distinct nature of the subraces.


One of the possible problems with some groups within the elven playerbase now is that it’s misunderstood and sometimes itself refuses to be understood or look at things in the perspective of others. I had a very pleasant conversation with another player today not even of the elven playerbase and was surprised to hear how disenchanted someone could be with the fantastical concept of roleplaying as an elf. He simply didn’t like the Elves because, originally, he’d sort of bunched the entire playerbase together without considering the existence of the subraces. He made a good point on how a lot of elves are essentially inserting themselves into other societies and interacting with their race of origin at their own convenience, whilst simultaneously promoting attacks on their own race with this other society. To sum up my understanding of what we talked about, let’s discuss some prevalent themes we discussed. Before I get started, I want to say as a disclaimer that this is in no way an attempt to spite or bash at any other nation, group, subrace or playerbase within LOTC, I’m simply giving my take on some of the things that apparently happen according to the perspective of fellow LOTC players. I would like to make a further disclaimer and apologise if it seems like I’m using @VonEbs ‘s thread as a platform for my ideas and discussion, but I feel that this is important to perhaps understanding why there’re so many misunderstandings and animosity between differing playerbases. Thank you VonEbs for so much dedication to your work. Now, let’s begin.





  1. Intrusiveness

Throughout LOTC history, it seems as though there’s always been one race or nation/group who, IRP, has been the prevalent or most highlighted group within it’s ever developing and expanding change. Whether it be the humans imposing their belief systems on other human groups or other races altogether; or a group of diverse elves who’ve tried to impose the mantle of responsibility regarding their ‘traditions’ on other more separatist groups: there’ll always be someone or multiple someone’s who want to be on top. The problem with trying to be atop the seat of superiority is that it’ll never be accepted, because there will always be too many diverse people within LOTC and too many diverse thoughts and beliefs for people to tolerate segregation and forced segmentation. Because a group has the power to impose itself on another group – does not mean that they should; regardless of the fact that it’s just roleplay in a videogame, as it’s intrusive and imposing on that groups ability to roleplay the way they’ve established and still be able to travel the continent without being subject to toxic behavior.



  1. Imperialism




Pretty self-explanatory, right? Now you might think that this is a direct jab at the Empire, but it’s not – so don’t try and refute my points by saying that my words are invalid because you think it’s just me trying to stir drama... Carrying on. For many countries, both historically and in LOTC, imperialism can be a very intrusive and imposing political concept. Using militant might or diplomatic influence to meet a political agenda in of itself isn’t a really bad thing. But, when you insert fear into the equation, it totally changes. Whether it’s fear of losing your political influence because another nation wants to utilize its imperialist diplomacy to conquer and divide, or fear of slaughter or genocide from an opposing military force – noone likes it. Not the elves from the humans, not the humans from orcs, and not the orcs from everybody else. No race or player wants to live in fear of losing what their personae invested because of some dictatorial, power-mongering monarch or foreign hierarchy. And it’s plainly obvious that a lot of players and their personas utilize fear tactics to manipulate others. It’s not fun for anyone but the people creating the fear.



  1. Organic Roleplay

One of the best things about LOTC that I’ve come to love is how the vast majority of its roleplay is self-generated by the general populace. What takes away from a lot of this are the ever-present cliques of PvP’ers. What’s fun is going mining to collect resources for your nation, generating raw materials and growing the worth of your persona in doing so, expanding its knowledge of local customs and politics, religion and culture. What’s not fun, is using your soulstone to return to your capital city with said resources, only to be immediately cut down by a bungling group of sword-toting, computer-mouse spammers so conceited by their belief that they can just raid and conquer any city through sheer ability to wave their index finger up and down rapidly who doesn’t have any regard for the roleplay of your character and the nation it coexists with. I realize raiding is a big part of how roleplay is organically generated through conflict, but when representatives of neighboring nations who also happened to be established, decorated military officials that were a part of said raid or had a hand in its making come to your capital city only to slander it’s entire existence because they didn’t participate in a petty PvP raid, then how does that make for organic roleplay? It’s almost purely imperialistic thinking on the part of the player simply because they don’t try to roleplay regarding said nation – neither within or outside of its borders – they’re simply trying to expand their nations reach for the plain prospect of having more power.



  1. Bias

Regardless of how good you are at roleplaying, how long you’ve been playing LOTC, if you’re a member of the overall staff team running the server’s lore, events and rule system, or just a simple player looking to have a good time – there will always be bias. This is due to the simple fact that a) You’re Human and B) Your persona is a direct bi-product of your personality. Obviously, a lot of players have gotten good at just acting and making up a character in LOTC that’s either the opposite of who they are or separating their beliefs from the beliefs of their persona, but the actions you take with your persona are actions that you yourself are taking. Plenty of people come here purely to roleplay, and plenty of others come here purely to PvP simply to show how good they are at swinging a sword in Minecraft; it’s hard to find a healthy balance, which is understandable because you can’t avoid the basic mechanics in Minecraft without having altered the server’s settings. I’ve heard how some nations in-game have tried to reign in on dictatorial and maliciously imperialistic groups before, and how the lore team or game moderators had allegedly sided with the second group, for reasons unknown to me. One theory is because of unconscious bias toward said group, possibly because of the existence of a persona within the group or some other reason yet unbeknownst to me.





I fully agree with what @Aeldrin said in response to another person in this thread, and I think that the best step that could be taken to start reforming some of our nations would be to separate cities divided along subracial lines, so as to satisfy the larger portion of the LOTC playerbase who’re here with predominant intentions of roleplaying over PvPing, not just for the elves but for the general populace. Furthermore, besides what few measures have already or are in the process of being done, the Wiki pages of all the different races and cultures need a massive overhaul, as they are outdated, and many people simply don’t understand how the other races work. @Aeldrin and I, along with several other members of the Princedom of Fenn playerbase are working day and night to revise and make changes to the Snow Elf lore on a multitude of separate documents. If anything should be taken from my response, it’s that we’re all here to have fun and we need to learn to consider other players perspectives and tolerate the differences in our individual beliefs. Thank you for reading, if you did.




Edited by Zastro

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