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The Summer Update – Addressing The Meta


Telanir
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24 minutes ago, kippenveer said:

And uhh, Erilobar? The guy that was only on the server for a month and got cb’d by YOU. Also Kana and Mickhaelz for 2 months. Literally no one agreed with you on those cb’s. Pun reversed them when you resigned.

They were appealed two weeks after they were issued as directed after some discussion? lol

It’s been a week since i stepped down bud

 

Anyways, interesting to see what comes of this if anything 

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3 hours ago, Telanir said:

We would no longer need them. Blacklists could retire in favour of open communication and respect. We would withdraw the option for staff to issue minor or toned down punishment. However, the player would be expected to discuss the situation with both the staff and those they upset. If necessary, a member of staff will facilitate this conversation. Afterwards, there is no tacked-on repercussion (provided that they act in good-spirit and adjust their behaviour).

 

Withdrawing lesser punishments is just going to lead to all or nothing moderating. This means that either someone will get blasted with an unfair ruling, or the wronged party is going to walk away angry. By saying you want everyone to talk out their problems you are just turning the GM team into group psychiatrists without the degrees or paychecks. And as hard as it is to get a free GM now, telling them to sit and talk it out for a half an hour is going to make it so much worse. Even now, I notice that some GMs that show up to an issue with the “Look, it isn’t that big a deal stop complaining and wasting my time” attitude. If they have to talk five angry people into a ‘hug-it-out’ moment, they will be far less likely to help people, or even apply for the team. And I am not trying to just slam the GMs, that would be stupid and unhelpful. What I am trying to do is point out is that they have a very hard job to do, and that they get just as put out as the rpers involved at sometimes.

When the deep, dark part of my brain hears “no repercussions” it does it’s self a little happy dance then starts plotting everyone's downfall. By promising no repercussions if you nod your head a smile really big when the moderator is looking, you are just asking for people to ignore the rules intentionally and then just apologize and flee with their new pixels. Long story short, it seems like this is well-intentioned but will end in many of the same issues being brought up next update.

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Bruh

19 minutes ago, Kaelan said:

They were appealed two weeks after they were issued as directed after some discussion? lol

It’s been a week since i stepped down bud

 

Anyways, interesting to see what comes of this if anything 

You still gave a relatively new player with no previous infractions a cb of 2 months for ‘copy and pasting while committing banditry’. Glad you resigned.

Edited by kippenveer
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I know you’ve been working on bridging the NL to Staff and I appreciate it greatly. Vilta’s goodbye in the chat says pretty clearly my opinion on the matter.

As for the pocket staff issue, I don’t think the problem will be one easily fixed or even fixed in a short time as it is very ingrained in the culture of the server.

First, removal of NLs, CLs, or whatever (Or even more radically Council Members/ROs) from staff team and then give these leaders formalized power in representing their playerbase to the staff teams. Even if you can prove there is no corruption with a Staff Team member being a leader many people will still perceive it as such. 

Second, make staff teams even more transparent. If a staff team is transparent it will be easier to see where clear instances of pocket staff lay. This could be made through forcing decisions to be posted publicly unless in a case where privacy is paramount.

Thirdly, add in horizontal checks somehow between the teams. Having pocket staff is going to be less effective if you have to hold multiple staff across the teams. This sort of exists already with Moderation and Lore Team in which they have overlapping jurisdiction and can act as checks to one another, but right now that isn’t formalized and it just leads to conflict.

Fourthly, disallowing pocket staff privileges through strict guideline creation and use. The amount of times I’ve seen a staff member breach a guideline which was created by their team for their personal gain or a group they rp withs personal gain is more than I can count. However, most of the time there was little to no punishment for this breach. This is across multiple teams as well that I’ve seen this. A lore team member who holds lore shouldn’t be allowed to make a decision on the lore. A wiki team member who is part of a charter shouldn’t be allowed to make a wiki page on the charter. A moderator shouldn’t be allowed to make decisions in which their group is involved. Managers shouldn’t be allowed to handling the applications of people they are friends with or people they have a beef with.

Fifthly, actually enforce proper standards in the application procedure. When I applied to moderation team the person who was chosen from my group (Side note: putting people into application purgatory instead of just denying them is poor practice) tried to tell me that they couldn’t pursue OOC arguments taken into RP because it was just too hard to investigate, and therefore, they couldn’t figure out if there was OOC agendas. A couple weeks later Knox was put into the team who after leaving the team would go on to try and bully a new player into giving default after his charecter had been the one to attack theirs, and when called out on how that wasn’t the rules he proceeded to insult the person involved. I think a basic standard that should exists is maybe reading and understanding the rules considering Moderation will be the ones enforcing them. Failure to enforce these standards will lead to people only using the rules when relevant to their group.

 

1 hour ago, Telanir said:

snip

 

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1 hour ago, Odium174 said:

Withdrawing lesser punishments is just going to lead to all or nothing moderating. This means that either someone will get blasted with an unfair ruling, or the wronged party is going to walk away angry. By saying you want everyone to talk out their problems you are just turning the GM team into group psychiatrists without the degrees or paychecks. And as hard as it is to get a free GM now, telling them to sit and talk it out for a half an hour is going to make it so much worse. Even now, I notice that some GMs that show up to an issue with the “Look, it isn’t that big a deal stop complaining and wasting my time” attitude. If they have to talk five angry people into a ‘hug-it-out’ moment, they will be far less likely to help people, or even apply for the team. And I am not trying to just slam the GMs, that would be stupid and unhelpful. What I am trying to do is point out is that they have a very hard job to do, and that they get just as put out as the rpers involved at sometimes.

When the deep, dark part of my brain hears “no repercussions” it does it’s self a little happy dance then starts plotting everyone's downfall. By promising no repercussions if you nod your head a smile really big when the moderator is looking, you are just asking for people to ignore the rules intentionally and then just apologize and flee with their new pixels. Long story short, it seems like this is well-intentioned but will end in many of the same issues being brought up next update.

 

Thanks Odium! I agree, there often should be repercussions. However, what they are should be in-line with the offence. We have many options to consider, pulling the folks together to discuss in voice, apologize and offer a plan to avoid upsetting the victim again, the return of all spoils plus perhaps some extra, a written apology, etc. For some folks, sucking up their pride and apologizing is punishment enough, especially considering most circumstances and perhaps their attitude as well. These are simple to execute without doing some mental gymnastics that they are “reforming” through their ban or whatever. 

 

So much we can do if we don’t immediately run to blacklists, bans, and restrictions!

 

1 hour ago, Skyrunner said:

I know you’ve been working on bridging the NL to Staff and I appreciate it greatly. Vilta’s goodbye in the chat says pretty clearly my opinion on the matter.

As for the pocket staff issue, I don’t think the problem will be one easily fixed or even fixed in a short time as it is very ingrained in the culture of the server.

First, removal of NLs, CLs, or whatever (Or even more radically Council Members/ROs) from staff team and then give these leaders formalized power in representing their playerbase to the staff teams. Even if you can prove there is no corruption with a Staff Team member being a leader many people will still perceive it as such. 

Second, make staff teams even more transparent. If a staff team is transparent it will be easier to see where clear instances of pocket staff lay. This could be made through forcing decisions to be posted publicly unless in a case where privacy is paramount.

Thirdly, add in horizontal checks somehow between the teams. Having pocket staff is going to be less effective if you have to hold multiple staff across the teams. This sort of exists already with Moderation and Lore Team in which they have overlapping jurisdiction and can act as checks to one another, but right now that isn’t formalized and it just leads to conflict.

Fourthly, disallowing pocket staff privileges through strict guideline creation and use. The amount of times I’ve seen a staff member breach a guideline which was created by their team for their personal gain or a group they rp withs personal gain is more than I can count. However, most of the time there was little to no punishment for this breach. This is across multiple teams as well that I’ve seen this. A lore team member who holds lore shouldn’t be allowed to make a decision on the lore. A wiki team member who is part of a charter shouldn’t be allowed to make a wiki page on the charter. A moderator shouldn’t be allowed to make decisions in which their group is involved. Managers shouldn’t be allowed to handling the applications of people they are friends with or people they have a beef with.

Fifthly, actually enforce proper standards in the application procedure. When I applied to moderation team the person who was chosen from my group (Side note: putting people into application purgatory instead of just denying them is poor practice) tried to tell me that they couldn’t pursue OOC arguments taken into RP because it was just too hard to investigate, and therefore, they couldn’t figure out if there was OOC agendas. A couple weeks later Knox was put into the team who after leaving the team would go on to try and bully a new player into giving default after his charecter had been the one to attack theirs, and when called out on how that wasn’t the rules he proceeded to insult the person involved. I think a basic standard that should exists is maybe reading and understanding the rules considering Moderation will be the ones enforcing them. Failure to enforce these standards will lead to people only using the rules when relevant to their group.

 

 

 

Damn, thank you Utaria! I’ll go through these points honest as I can.

 

When it comes to removing NL’s from staff positions—I appreciate that you went farther and pointed out CL’s, RO’s, council members, etc. My issue with this, is a lot of community leaders who are good at leading players and improving LotC happen to also be excellent candidates for staff—some of our best even. I’m somewhat afraid of the staff disconnect getting worse as well, as having staff who are also boots-on-the-ground and connected to their players is a hard thing to lose for me. I would need to be sure that the tradeback for that is sufficient.

 

Strict guideline use and implementation on mods has been very bad for morale and has led to lots of volunteers quitting. It’s really hard on them, but I understand what you mean—I’m sure there’s a middle ground.

 

Also! I am very glad you mentioned being a part of multiple teams, as I’ve been driving this mission forward and heavily encouraging staff to be a part of multiple teams. It is slowly becoming a thing, we’ll see how that goes!

 

When it comes to application procedure, if you prefer denial we could go back to the old method of denying all apps except the ones accepted. In general the policy has been so far that deny people with no chance, and for people who may still be promoted—we wait on the next recruitment phase. Realistically, if you haven’t been denied yet, it means you have a chance (unless the app is months old I suppose).

 

Sorry my response is a bit rushed—I’m holding up a staff voice call rn and I’ll have to get back to you a bit later. Thanks again!

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I applaud that you now think this kind of approach is necessary, but I still cannot hope but wish that people had communicated more with me in the slew of rule-breaking situations and accusations I’ve faced in the past. Someone on here made the point you don’t explain how you'll execute this, and I think you should address that in your next update log.

 

That being said, I am not too overly critical about the ideals of this approach, I’m just a bit skeptical that there’ll be any headway in making the Staff act on it. Kaelan, for instance, was a passionate staff member who was burnt out and pressed into a bad situation. Instead of talking to him and working through the problem in an efficient way, Flamboyant went on a public thread and accused him of lusting after an Admin role and being jealous of Pun.

 

Keep in mind, I am friends with both Kaelan and Pun. I don’t feel either of them should be removed, and I was surprised when Kaelan stepped down. A lot of Managers were willing to step down with him, and I honestly think that you guys need to sort out the staff before telling others how to behave.

 

The last point I’ll make is the toxicity of the Staff Team causes many “good” and “idealistic” players to go rogue and adopt a careless attitude towards the server. It happened with me, it’s happened with Kaelan, and it’s happened with loads of other people. Many people feel the same way, and staff, after they quit/are removed, tend to let off lots of steam because of how rigid the system is.  

 

For all the decorum that you guys want to put on the lower echelons of staff, I still think the bluntness and reactivity of the Administration should be curbed a bit. Admins should be role models, not bosses. Admins should be directors, not dictators.

 

Peace, and best of luck! 

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8 hours ago, Kaelan said:

 

Funny coming from you, a person who loves to write extremely long posts complaining and whose only memorable action is facilitating the Veist/DPM vs Ponder duel. 

 

 

Coming from me? I was one of the mods who tried to fix the system of blacklists and after me, lark, and karimir left, you all let it go to hell because of your personal crusades. 

 

Plus. I dont really write long posts?

 

As well as my ban appeal showed. Me and karimir showed suspicion and passed it on to an administration that told us the fight was going to happen. Admins needed a scapegoat. ?‍♂️ 

 

But going back to my original talk before the sky gods strike me down. You shouldn't need 50 pages to make a simple point. As @Telanir needs to learn is we are a minecraft server. We dont need fancy words and drawn out posts. Get to the point and get it done.

Edited by L0rdLawyer
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POWER TO THE PLAYERS, MODERATORS AND GM’S HAVE NO PLACE IN RP IN THEIR DUTIES APART FROM ARBITRATION! MICROMANAGEMENT IS TOXIC, STEP OFF OF IT, Y’ALL HAVE NO REASON TO BE INVOLVED UNLESS YOU PLAY A CHARACTER THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS TO THE CONFLICT. YOU WILL BE HATED WHETHER YOU HELP PEOPLE OR NOT, SO WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? YOU CAN’T WIN EVERYONE, JUST LET US HAVE FUN.

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“What do you think”

Think this is too long...

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the shadows of LoTC give a hearty hello

 

 

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5 hours ago, Harold said:

the shadows of LoTC give a hearty hello

 

 

Dancin from admin jail rn

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