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[Your View] Coups

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Let players run coups, staff and current leaders should never be involved less it ruins the purpose of what a coup actually is.... Food for thought.

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On 1/10/2020 at 7:04 PM, argonian said:

 

No man they definitely mean coups.

 

Civil wars are conventional wars just within a country, we have these all the time using normal wars rules. Side A controls City A, Side B controls City B. Their armies face off in battle, the winner goes to siege the other side’s city. 

 

This thread is about coups as in – the military storm the palace and capture the government, declaring martial law.

 

A coup is decidedly a civil war though, just a very short one because the entire military is on one side. 

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39 minutes ago, Burnsider said:

 

A coup is decidedly a civil war though, just a very short one because the entire military is on one side. 

In terms of LOTC mechanics, no, because no WC takes place, etc. Irl the lines between a battle and a hostile seizure are a lot more fluid and just depend on how much resistance there is, but here even if the defenders put up a good fight and make it a huge 60v60 or whatever, it's still not a WC or a war by LOTC rules or mechanics. 

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3 minutes ago, argonian said:

In terms of LOTC mechanics, no, because no WC takes place, etc. Irl the lines between a battle and a hostile seizure are a lot more fluid and just depend on how much resistance there is, but here even if the defenders put up a good fight and make it a huge 60v60 or whatever, it's still not a WC or a war by LOTC rules or mechanics. 

 

Why shouldn't it be? It's really impossible to translate this to real world situations. For example, in real life, there are always guards around. In mineman, I might be able to catch the king on when none of his men are on and take him down with 2 other guys. The only way to make this "fair" would be to let both sides gather reasonable forces, e.g. like a war claim. If this really is a proper coup where you have the military on your side and the king doesn't have supporters, that's gonna be a really easy WC for you. But we definitely need the chance for both sides to gather forces due to the fact that this is a game and people aren't on all the time unlike real life where you can't log. 

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17 minutes ago, Burnsider said:

 

Why shouldn't it be? It's really impossible to translate this to real world situations. For example, in real life, there are always guards around. In mineman, I might be able to catch the king on when none of his men are on and take him down with 2 other guys. The only way to make this "fair" would be to let both sides gather reasonable forces, e.g. like a war claim. If this really is a proper coup where you have the military on your side and the king doesn't have supporters, that's gonna be a really easy WC for you. But we definitely need the chance for both sides to gather forces due to the fact that this is a game and people aren't on all the time unlike real life where you can't log. 

Well then the no outside allies rule needs to be clear and enforced. If it’s spontaneous some guys being hired is one thing, but if it’s booked a week in advance then 400 people WLL show up if they’re allowed. 

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15 minutes ago, argonian said:

Well then the no outside allies rule needs to be clear and enforced. If it’s spontaneous some guys being hired is one thing, but if it’s booked a week in advance then 400 people WLL show up if they’re allowed. 

 

Heck, I'd go further. Make it 12 hours in advance, not a week and it's not "No outside allies" but rather "those who would be expected to be there" which would be an even slimmer list. Harder to police, but I still hold out some glimmer of hope that players will act with some semblance of maturity (I know I know). 

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On 1/9/2020 at 7:15 PM, Aethling said:

Druids have their own method of ousting a leader, so coup rules will always be awkward and won’t work with regards to us.

 

Let nations figure out their own means to coups and RP it as they know it goes, instead of wrapping it up in red tape.

 

Your group has a certain prescription of who can be the de jure leader, but if a group of players seizes control of your region in roleplay that makes their leader the de facto leader. The rules shouldn’t try to litigate who’s the de jure/“true leader” through a cultural/in-character perspective. I have serious issues with moderators deciding what is and isn’t true in roleplay. Rather, the rules should be based off of who is objectively in charge, and what could actually happen in roleplay. Otherwise you end up with inane verdicts like the “duke of Adria” burning Ves down through OOC assent. 

 

Simply put, regardless of what the druids do to select their leaders, if a group of armed druids staged an insurrection, kicked out the druid leadership, and named someone else Archdruid or whatever, that person is made de facto leader of the druids. The druids would have the choice in roleplay to either fight back against that or leave and start the “true” druid grove somewhere else. 

 

The rules should 100% avoid red tape. “Coup applications” was a previous solution that genuinely sucked. Anything involving an application or “war chat” some other tiered process should be thrown out.

 

8 hours ago, Burnsider said:

 

Why shouldn't it be? It's really impossible to translate this to real world situations. For example, in real life, there are always guards around. In mineman, I might be able to catch the king on when none of his men are on and take him down with 2 other guys. The only way to make this "fair" would be to let both sides gather reasonable forces, e.g. like a war claim. If this really is a proper coup where you have the military on your side and the king doesn't have supporters, that's gonna be a really easy WC for you. But we definitely need the chance for both sides to gather forces due to the fact that this is a game and people aren't on all the time unlike real life where you can't log. 

 

Coups in RL aren’t fair and often involve people quietly gathering forces and staging a surprise assault on an unprepared government. Warclaims don’t work as a coup solution because they take weeks to prepare, and are too decisive. If one side stages a coup and it goes to a warclaim, and they win that warclaim, it’s going to be nigh impossible for the ousted side to fight back. Even if that ousted side was a majority. 

 

The most “fair” coup rules are ones that respond to minute-to-minute changes in roleplay. If a minority of players seizes power in a region the rules should allow a popular uprising to throw the usurpers out. If a government is ousted from a region they should be able to take power back if the odds are on their side in roleplay. Warclaims, simply put, do not allow this level of flexibility. And they also don’t currently exist, so...

 

On 1/11/2020 at 12:51 PM, The Redneck said:

Let players run coups, staff and current leaders should never be involved less it ruins the purpose of what a coup actually is.... Food for thought.

 

Even if you genuinely believe this is a good idea, there has to be some objective OOC framework for how regions change hands. Players are not going to make rational compromises on who owns their precious mineblock castle. Letting players make the rules leads to lots of self-interested chicanery.

 

I support a system that gives players the freedom to do everything they possibly can in roleplay, with moderators and players deciding on what is and isn’t possible. If you let players choose the terms of a war, though, they’ll come up with absolute nonsense terms to make it as infuriating for the other side to win as possible.

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I’d suggest making it and rp-based system which requires the party perpetrating the coup to request permission from the server staff as long as they have A) A specified number of people in the coup (Say 15-20 members for the larger cities) and B) a good, lore-supported reason supported by Rp for the coup, with the qualifications of B) being determined by an unbiased admin with no connection to the coup or the city, empire, or orginization.

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