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[✗] [Magic Lore] Celestialism: Breaching the Veil


Kalehart
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5 hours ago, frill said:

 

Kinda cringe to see somebody defend a lore piece just because the piece exists. 

 

 

I don’t know if you're being purposefully ambiguous or just trying to eek out a quick dopamine hit by addressing a point nobody is making. The issue here is that Kaleheart wants to wipe MAs and TAs and to personally police who uses what was previously a reasonably widely spread magic, those with access outside of “his group” of inactive mage RPers being a paltry few “handpicked” people being unnecessarily “grandfathered in”. You’re being obscenely disingenuous by ignoring the fact that Kaleheart is trying to feed into the same magic RPer clique-ism that has plagued the server for years because you’re trying to drop epic owns such as “uh write your own lore if you dont like it -_-“ against people like the high elves who are trying to protect their established communities.

Man, I had a whole response written to this about how nuts it is to assert ‘facts’ about my intentions without any actual basis for them, and how baseless the entirety of your argument is in general, but I’m just not going to bother.

 

I’m disappointed that you can’t give me the benefit of the doubt and insist on misconstruing my intentions with no real logic beyond ‘he’s asking for that thing I don’t want’ but I guess that’s fine, I don’t really need to convince you.

 

I’ve said it before and will say it again, I will be giving this magic a life of its own out of my hands, by picking people who are not my friends that can spread it as they desire, and get it into the communities where it is important. I will not restrict it to my clique, I will not police those I give it to, nor will I be biased in my choices for grandfathering. If you can’t take my word for it, all of that distrust is on your shoulders, not mine.

 

I’ve done nothing but ask for a measure I feel is needed for what I have written, and if you can’t respectfully disagree with that without trying to paint me as some kind of ill-intending villain, uh... Well, yikes. Keep building straw men to take down, I guess.

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12 minutes ago, Kalehart said:

Man, I had a whole response written to this about how nuts it is to assert ‘facts’ about my intentions without any actual basis for them, and how baseless the entirety of your argument is in general, but I’m just not going to bother.

 

I’m disappointed that you can’t give me the benefit of the doubt and insist on misconstruing my intentions with no real logic beyond ‘he’s asking for that thing I don’t want’ but I guess that’s fine, I don’t really need to convince you.

 

I’ve said it before and will say it again, I will be giving this magic a life of its own out of my hands, by picking people who are not my friends that can spread it as they desire, and get it into the communities where it is important. I will not restrict it to my clique, I will not police those I give it to, nor will I be biased in my choices for grandfathering. If you can’t take my word for it, all of that distrust is on your shoulders, not mine.

 

I’ve done nothing but ask for a measure I feel is needed for what I have written, and if you can’t respectfully disagree with that without trying to paint me as some kind of ill-intending villain, uh... Well, yikes. Keep building straw men to take down, I guess.

 

  • A straw man (or strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

Refute my point. So you, without a reasonable doubt in your mind, believe that you and you alone should have the Lore Sanctioned juristiction to seize a magic sub-type from a hundred other players, many of whom are currently learning or have spent hundreds of hours role-playing in the past, because you decided to rename the magic and change a few spells? I have nothing against you, and no ad hominem I will be directing towards you. In my experience, you are reasonable most of the time. I feel, however, this TA and MA wipe is beyond unreasonable. 

 

It’s sheer insanity that you believe you and yourself alone should hold this kind of power over so many other players’ role-play. If you would like to fix the magic, you would do so with no strings attached. Honestly, these people “asserting facts” as you put it are speculating on your intentions, because like I’ve said this is a pretty unreasonable thing to do. We know from your post that:

 

- You say, or believe, you will give it to new people. But you are aversive to the players who practice the magic right now keeping it.

- You’ve done nothing but “measure” or quantify it; but you neglect to explain why it is necessary in a reasonably appropriate sense of the term.

 

Why should anybody give you the benefit of the doubt when over the course of the past year ½ magics are getting shelved and wiped left and right? Especially when the Admin behind the lore games was removed for subversive and unethical behavior? You’re taking a concept people widely disagree with and applying it to your lore, and you’re using it as a method to cull undesirables rather than work at making a productive rewrite.

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Edit: I’m going to do the smart thing and stop replying to and watching this thread. The LT will determine whether or not my request for a wipe is reasonable, and if they would rather be the ones to determine who is grandfathered, I will allow it.

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18 hours ago, howard said:

i hate magic roleplayers. like why can’t you guys just roleplay summoning magic missiles without constantly being at each other’s throats trying to get other ppl’s roleplay banned

 

it looks completely psychotic from an outsider perspective

Thank you

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5 hours ago, ExcitedEXE said:

-snip-

 I’ll refute the point about ‘not trusting the current playerbase to have it’ It’s totally different than the current magic and if you insert this with as many people as possible (by your own admission, hundreds) you are immediately presenting an opportunity for the misuse, power gaming, and misinterpretation of the magic. The fights associate will busy the GM Team, the Lore boys, The Magic Boys, everyone will be bothered and expected to shoulder the immense burden immediately. 

The TA/MA wipe I see as reasonable because in execution administering a rewrite to (by your own admission) hundreds of people you guarantee that you can’t attend to every single person who wants to learn and wants to clear up confusion and also deal with those who vehemently exploit the wording in bane of the spirit of the lore piece. 

Everything that is being said about Kalehart is just being said in bad faith, I get it’s a concern that the magic will become clique based and you yourself claim he is mostly reasonable you’re operating under the assumption that this idea is done without reason and purely for selfish and ill intent. While you’re concerned about it, you’re also (from a third party persepctive) resorting to ad hominem and operating under the assumption of ill intent in your arguments. 

Howard may not be right but it does certainly SEEM like you you boys are getting mad about your pixel power. 

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1 hour ago, TentoaTheStrained said:

 I’ll refute the point about ‘not trusting the current playerbase to have it’ It’s totally different than the current magic and if you insert this with as many people as possible (by your own admission, hundreds) you are immediately presenting an opportunity for the misuse, power gaming, and misinterpretation of the magic. The fights associate will busy the GM Team, the Lore boys, The Magic Boys, everyone will be bothered and expected to shoulder the immense burden immediately. 

The TA/MA wipe I see as reasonable because in execution administering a rewrite to (by your own admission) hundreds of people you guarantee that you can’t attend to every single person who wants to learn and wants to clear up confusion and also deal with those who vehemently exploit the wording in bane of the spirit of the lore piece. 

Everything that is being said about Kalehart is just being said in bad faith, I get it’s a concern that the magic will become clique based and you yourself claim he is mostly reasonable you’re operating under the assumption that this idea is done without reason and purely for selfish and ill intent. While you’re concerned about it, you’re also (from a third party persepctive) resorting to ad hominem and operating under the assumption of ill intent in your arguments. 

Howard may not be right but it does certainly SEEM like you you boys are getting mad about your pixel power. 

 

Not sure how it’s ad hominem to present the implication here, which is that anybody having the ability to reconstruct a magic from the ground up only to exclude its players that have played characters with hours upon hours of experience and nullify their experiences and role-play. Clique-based is the worry of others, and you will have people misusing, power-gaming, and misinterpreting magic with or without the transition. The inherent flaw here is not that he is somehow lesser for desiring this, it seems great in theory, but it cannot be said that it is fair or unbiased.

 

If he is going to solely choose who is grandfathered, then there is no hope even for the wipe making a difference. It’s not a matter of “power” since these spells ultimately gain nobody anything except a form of role-play they’re engaging in which has a reliance on free-form artsy spells. Ultimately, it is a terrible precedent set by FlamboyantMingo’s draconian policies, and should be reserved for special circumstances. This circumstance is not excruciating enough to warrant any form of magic wipe, especially one that directly impacts the people who have been most involved in the magic’s development since day one. many issues involving power-gaming can be resolved with Moderators and Story Team members, which is their job, and through changes to the lore that reduce the combat capabilities which truthfully were used as a crutch to empower specific members of the Arcanism community.

 

BNK, Sagwort, and many others have role-played this magic. Many Arcanists probably still don’t know another rewrite has gone up up until this point. I’m sorry if you feel it’s in bad power for people to think that this type of power over other people’s role-play can certainly be a corrupting influence on him as a player, because he is essentially going to be playing God with other characters and years of their work and it shouldn’t be a surprise that people are less than pleased. 

 

The idea here is that the wipe isn’t necessary. If others have been trying to present him as using it as a method of power-tripping, they may be acting harsh and overly critical, but surely you could see where they’re coming from in being worried about the future of their characters. Whether Kaleheart has good intentions or not, I think this is a valid criticism to have, especially as it pertains to a creative work which others have been apart of for years. As for the claim about “getting mad over pixel power”, I don’t see Arcanists winning large-scale PvP battles, or even a lot of emote fights for that matter. I don’t even see how it can be construed as being any different from a shield or a bow, apart from a few spells that need to be reworked.

Any rewrite of this magic should work on lessening the combat capabilities and shifting the focus back to what it was originally; a free form creative magic for spectacular displays. Not whatever Lovecraftian Horror got passed under the last Lore Administrator due to staff oversight and error.

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19 hours ago, The King Of The Moon said:

Kinda cringe seeing people claim ‘ownership’ over a magic they’ve done nothing to save and made no proactive effort to rewrite themselves over the past YEAR since loregames began. 

Regardless of my opinion on this lorepiece, MA and TA wipes are very common for dead and dying magic groups.

If you care so little about contributing to the server and other people’s RP that you’re not willing to put in the effort to attempt a lorepiece and reach out to the ST if you’re struggling with said writing, and would rather wait for some other schmuck to write it so you can then leach off of their piece despite no involvement and no proactive effort to have your old lore revived, you don’t deserve that decaying MA from 2016 to mean diddly-squat. 

 

Necromancers did it just fine, Afflicted did it just fine, Dark Shamans did it just fine back in the day, Striga did it just fine, ‘Werewolves’ did it just fine, Arcanists can do it just fine.

MA wipes will be the norm for lore groups that currently DO NOT EXIST being brought back into existence by someone who wants to start fresh. There’s no problem with that.

To the Arcanists screeching on this post here’s a TL;DR:

The old Arcanism lore is bad and isn’t coming back, no-one is going to write it for you. If you think this lore is bad you should write some yourself instead. If you think it’s bad another player group will get the magic you haven’t had for a year, then reflect on how long you’ve had time to write your own lore to prevent that. 


I can’t tell why the ST seem to enjoy trash-talking my lore (and me, I guess?). It was good enough to be used for almost 8 years. It’s not that the lore is bad. It’s that the current ST regime wants things in a specific format. A format that is impossible to know how to balance. Especially when everything used to be balanced by just talking it out with the other players you are roleplaying with aka collaborative storytelling.

 

Not to mention that in the guide I tried to give as many examples & emote sequences as I could muster (but I realize now that I never finished for arcanism.)


What I can say is this;

 

- We are tired of seeing ST post pretentious messages on Lore Threads. This server doesn’t belong to you.
 

- I have gone through multiple iterations of my own rewrite since lore games started. I’m a busy boy IRL and put my rewrite down for long periods of time because I am only semi-active. I have at least a dozen different starts of a lore doc but it’s a lot of ******* work.

 

- We ALL had to wait nearly a year for the ST to give the necessary information to begin writing anything. So attacking people for taking a year is hypocritical.


- I got burnt out on all the new regulations and how shitty It was dealing with the ST  so I gladly passed the torch on to anyone willing to write their version & continue to support/offer commentary for those that have been doing so.


- The ST lore game discord was a toxic place & many of the ST promoted **** talking in there just like you are doing here.

 

-Of course people are angry about a potential wipe & it isn’t the duty of everyone using the magic to participate in the writing process. Especially not when we have had some form of rewrite up since Autumn 2019. 

______
 

I don’t really care if your message is directly pointed at me or just other arcanists posting here. It’s not an attitude any of us want to deal with from the ST. 

 

And Arcanism IS a helf cultural magic. It’s often used much like shamans might use their magic in orc culture. It’s understandable for them to be upset about a wipe. Especially when it can take half an IRL year to get into a magic. Though those helves should rest assured that should a wipe happen I would begin teaching again to help them out.


As for the intentions of Kalehart with this piece. I don’t have anything to comment other than that Kalehart approached me before posting. That warrants some level of respect from me to this piece, despite not agreeing with the aesthetic direction. Namely taking it from a crystal aesthetic ans turning it into a void-scarred-unsound type of vibe. 

 

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If I was perhaps a tad more paranoid I’d find it interesting that both people on this thread actively arguing the MA wipe have Arcanism MAs, acquired on May 15th so they wouldn’t be Tier 5, so I could draw a conclusion that these people are actually trying to keep their pixel power rather than argue the need for a wipe. But hey, everyone on this server acts in good faith, right?
Also, Mr Excited, Kaleheart has said that he’ll allow the LT to choose who is grandfathered in so how could he build a clique if he isn’t the one choosing?

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On 5/21/2020 at 4:17 PM, Kalehart said:

First of all I understand the concerns over the MA and TA wipe. While there does seem to be some push for this that is not needed, I want to be very clear in saying that I have no issue with the Arcanism community, nor do I have any intentions to guildlock this magic- the grandfathering system exists for a reason, and I have always intended to use it to give this magic fair diversity in who can attain it. It is important to the helves, and I never intended to leave them high and dry, I had offered to grandfather BrandNewKitten, and intended to determine a few others who could also help spread the magic outside of my group. I still intend to do so.

 

The reason I state that an MA and TA wipe is vital is not out of any vindictive or elitist ideal, it is simply for the fact that the entire basic logic of the magic has changed, many will not want to accept the costs that come with acquiring it, and many characters simply won't be suited to maintaining the Four Studies outlined in the post. It is not a magic that is as widely applicable as Arcanism, and people who use Arcanism will not intuitively be able to use this. I apologize to those who don't want to lose the magic, and your concern is fair, but what I have written justifies the measure in my estimation.

 

Oh man, you offered to grandfather in one person to your exclusive new magic when there is an entire host of characters with years of RP intertwined into Arcanism because you think we aren’t capable of learning your new one? I don’t even dislike your lore, but don’t hide your intentions of making the magic more exclusive when it’s blatantly obvious and geared towards your benefit.

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38 minutes ago, Princeton said:

 

Oh man, you offered to grandfather in one person to your exclusive new magic when there is an entire host of characters with years of RP intertwined into Arcanism because you think we aren’t capable of learning your new one? I don’t even dislike your lore, but don’t hide your intentions of making the magic more exclusive when it’s blatantly obvious and geared towards your benefit.

Na I think his intentions are genuinely pure, perhaps personal opinion tho

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8 hours ago, Princeton said:

-snip-

He said in this thread he would allow the LT to handpick people from other factions who already have arcanism to undertake learning the new lore. So...I’d say it’s not geared to his benefit at all.

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This lore has been denied. You will be sent a forum PM regarding the reasons for denial within the next 24 hours.

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