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[Completed]Combat should be neither RP nor PVP.


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Let me clarify.

 

Both RP combat and PVP combat have their merits and drawbaxcks. RP combat requires either two experienced people going through RP combat for a few hours or, bar experience, two people shouting at each other until one consents to lose. PVP combat is quick, messy, and encourages goonery and the enticement of PvP from people who know how to click faster than most. Both methods have their drawbacks, and people tend to argue over which is better. However, from these debates, it is clear that neither is better. A lot of people hate RP combat due to the amount of time it has the potential to suck up and, similarly, a lot of people hate PvP because its something other than a roleplay resolution to roleplay scenarios.

 

So, I want to hear what people think about solutions for this dilemma, about whether combat should be limited to PVP and RP, and about how we should go about combat. Me and Zac Clay (Marimbamonk) were recently speaking on discord for a while and PVP vs. RP combat came up in conversation, and we both agreed that RP combat was messy and had no objective metric about how it should be performed whereas PVP was short, sweet, and disadvantageous to not only new players, but also people who have no interest on clicking fast on a minecraft server. However, that same conversation is where this next idea came up.

 

However, what is the core issue with RP and PVP combat? RP combat has no objective metric as to the winner or loser, and by that is arguably worse. PVP combat is too objective a metric, but in the wrong direction; it requires knowledge of how to strafe, click, etc, out of character, and is fundamentally a meta process.

 

A D&D-esque system, with health, rolls, relevant racial bonuses, and maybe even a point buy/statline and class system, standardized for everyone, would, while throwing your lot in with luck, be much cleaner than per se a RP system where people determine the outcome of the fight through words and essentially mutual consent, or a PVP system, where you require some degree of skill in a metagamey sense that has no respect to whether your character knows how to swing a sword or not. I say D&D-esque because it should by no means have the same complexity as D&D, but it would produce not only a more objective metric to the resolution of combat. Additionally, preceding roles would be emotes stating intention in regards to an action, which would then have relevant bonuses applied (ie. swing with sword / parry with sword ==> roll with bonuses). Actions could be clarified, spells could be given specified damage output (given that we’re already headed in that direction), and we have something we didn’t before; an objective metric for roleplay combat resolution, something which is BADLY needed..

 

However, that’s the point of this debate forum. That’s MY idea for where combat on the server should head. Go nuts, my dudes. I want to hear what y’all think.

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You’re right about how RP combat is a complete mess and clickydeath pvp is just so stupid, I like your idea for combat resolution but.....

 

Knowing the LOTC community if we added an RP combat system where you have racial bonuses and point buy for stats, a lot of people would make max strength Orcs with 0 int and RP them as green humans who are perfectly normal.

 

Sure we can tell them to not do that, but then they’ll move on to a more acceptable (but still overpowered) build, until that gets nerfed and so on and so on.

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A DnD’esque system was introduced in Vailor, it quickly got shelved as it was hard to balance.

 

I don’t think RP combats drawback can be summed down to it having no objective metric, since that could also be considered one of the upsides to that style. In PvP, the outcome is black and white, there is a winner and a loser, meaning one party doesn’t have any character development in that scenerio. However in RP combat there doesn’t have to be a winner or a loser, which makes for better character development on both parties. The biggest reason RP combat is currently so bad, is because it is so time consuming and subject to potential powergaming (And horrible with many people, but we already know that, nobody disagrees with that).

 

I think the server has come far in acknowledging the problems of both systems, and have over many years found the system that make the least people angry (Not the most people satisfied). Personally I don’t really care what system we end up going with, I just want people to understand that the “roleplay” or character development of player personas, take priority over pixels in minecraft.

 

With a DnD’esque system, what you are essentially arguing for, is Roll-play?

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Tbh if someone wrote up a system and all parties agree to using said system there shouldn't be any issue as we have the cooperative RP rules. And allowing people to pick a mixture of options how they wish to go about combat wouldn't hurt.

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why would we use a DnD system when people could just play DND

 

PvP is essential on this server and so is RP combat. Though the way RP combat is approached is an interesting topic that will never be resolved. Probably would quit the server straight up if a system like you proposed was implemented on the server. (telanir that's your cue to make it and get me out of this cesspit).

 

implementing objective combat solutions and resolutions to conflict is when this server stops being a collaborative narrative and turns into an MMORPG. Systems are made to be broken, it's why no set system at all somehow works better than a singular alternative 

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1 hour ago, argonian said:

Rollfighting >>>>>>> this stuff

thank god

 

PvP fighting is fine for concluding big roleplay conflicts, and the justification can be made that; if you aren’t good at PvP, don’t roleplay a soldier or a warrior. Just like how you had to grind Nexus professions to become a master leatherworker, smith, etc., train at PvP if you want to be a master swordsman (like you would in real life). 

RP fighting is also fun, but requires consent or moderation by a third party saying ‘You’re definitely dead, buddy.’ Roll-fighting to decide RP fights, maybe with some modifiers so that a halfling isnt beating an orc, is the way to go.

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16 minutes ago, KeatonUnbeaten said:

thank god

 

PvP fighting is fine for concluding big roleplay conflicts, and the justification can be made that; if you aren’t good at PvP, don’t roleplay a soldier or a warrior. Just like how you had to grind Nexus professions to become a master leatherworker, smith, etc., train at PvP if you want to be a master swordsman (like you would in real life). 

RP fighting is also fun, but requires consent or moderation by a third party saying ‘You’re definitely dead, buddy.’ Roll-fighting to decide RP fights, maybe with some modifiers so that a halfling isnt beating an orc, is the way to go.

You don’t really need any modifiers is the thing. Even if a Halfling dodges 10 Orc attacks in a row and punches him 10 times in a row, the Orc is still barely gonna feel it. But if the Orc lands one hit the Halfling’s probably instant KO’d. 

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I’ve been bouncing around a lot of different RP servers in the... unfortunately 9+ years I have spent doing MC RP. As a result, I've seen several different approaches to combat.

 

Honestly, combat is one of the biggest sources of OOC stress and conflict that I’ve seen in MC RP. I’ve watched people get into hours-long arguments about how mechanics work and how certain spells are supposed to function. Just really nasty OOC fights that completely clog the chat and derail RP – and accomplish nothing except make people upset and add to the toxicity and bad vibes on the server. I’ve seen friendships ended over arguments about stats and mechanics. 

 

But on the other hand, pure PVP is mostly a contest of who has the least lag and the best armor/weapons... which isn’t really conducive to RP either in my opinion. 

 

Combat serves a specific role in storytelling. Combat between characters isn’t just a test of who is stronger – it’s supposed to be a dialogue. One character stands for one idea. The other character presents a conflicting idea. And the fight is the culmination of their conflict with one another. One of my favorite moments in RP was on another server. I was playing a young teenager character who was getting routinely schooled by her older mentor. Just walloped by him every single time. To her, he was the symbol of her mounting frustration with being unable to achieve her goals. And when she finally beat him in a fight, it was a huge character moment for her. It was her triumph over all the forces she perceived as holding her back. So it was way more than just rolling dice and counting up stats. It was a Moment TM

 

I think the reason that people often find combat boring  is that there’s no driving character motivations behind it. It’s not a conversation like it’s supposed to be. It’s just... empty and time consuming and a source of OOC fights. Maybe if more people adjusted their perspective on RP combat to make it more like a dialogue between characters, driven by their motivations and who they are as people with stakes that are not just physical but emotional,  it’d be more engaging to roleplay. 

 

I’m also a person who prefers less stats/mechanics rather than more. I don’t like things complicating my RP experience or putting barriers on what my character should be able to do. Very few of us are professional game developers and I think a lot of people contribute to LOTC on a volunteer basis. That means we’re not experts in game balancing. So more detailed and complicated mechanics will just contribute to more OOC fights and power abuse imo. Complicated mechanics can create even more avenues for power creep and abuse, loopholes to exploit, etc. Any system is going to have its flaws, but I prefer a system that prioritizes roleplay, freedom, flexibility, and creativity over rarefied, highly specific mechanical knowledge of granular rules.

 

(And it’s worth noting that the people who put in the effort to master the mechanics are not always the most skilled roleplayers with the best characters. In fact, the best roleplayers tend to be the ones who focus on RP rather than mastering and exploiting a set of overly-detailed game mechanics. Hot take, I know.)

 

In an ideal world, I’d say that everyone should have a reasonable idea of what their character can and cannot do. And roleplay according to that. But sadly I know that’s also prone to abuse by people who want to play all-powerful Mary Sues/Gary Stus.

 

In short, there’s a lot of things that make finding an ideal system for combat difficult. But I kinda lean toward less being more. Focus being on RP and storytelling rather than mechanics. And let the staff sort out any abuses when it comes to powergaming.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, argonian said:

You don’t really need any modifiers is the thing. Even if a Halfling dodges 10 Orc attacks in a row and punches him 10 times in a row, the Orc is still barely gonna feel it. But if the Orc lands one hit the Halfling’s probably instant KO’d. 

yeah, true

 

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Have rolling modifiers on story & moderator approved items and give every character health based on their race, affiliation & profession.
Simply keep the /roll 20 as it is and just add the modifiers from item’s and your persona card.

It’s as easy as combining what we already have in terms of mechanics which are accessible to every player.


For damage-calculation I would go for a 3 tap mechanic, where the persona has several hitpoints (head, torso, limbs, mind, soul etc.) with each hitzone having a seperate hitzone and once that hitzone is depleted from it’s healthpoints it’s out and you will have to roleplay the consequences accordingly to what happened in combat, e.g. having an arm almost severed or having your skin burnt crisp by an offensive spell. Actual damage dealt would be either the difference in the fighting players dice result or a set damage by weapon type.

Fights would be as simple as deciding to either attack a hitzone, block a hitzone / dodge or parry an attack. You hit a /roll 20 and let’s say you get a 14, your opponent then has to get a roll that’s higher than yours to avoid or afflict damage. They /roll and let’s say they get a 10, subtract your result from that and that’s -4 = 4 Damage to the opponents hitzone, or a successful dodge, block and a parry could even subvert the damage to your opponent!

An example with modifiers could look like this.

You  have a dagger that’s story approved to have a modifier of +2 on your attack rolls when attacking from up close and throwing.
You hit a /roll 20 +2 and let’s say you get a 9+2(11), you’re opponent then has to get a roll that’s higher than yours to avoid or afflict damage. They /roll 20 +4 because they are a burly dwarf in armor and let’s say they get a 10+4(14), subtract your result from that and that’s 3 = no damage dealt to the opponents hitzone, or 3 subverted damage if they were to parry.

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9 minutes ago, D4NNA said:

-snip-

 

 Overall I do consider a mix between simplifying D&D system and improving /roll as the best solution in this case, towards “creating new system”, but at the same time we have to keep in midn that there would be a lot of work to ensure that it’s not broken in any major way. That then would require an entire team, preferably of people connected with game developement in system area, making them work out a balanced-ish system that can be easily amended if needed be, and even then it would have to be tested first for a longer time by test groups, then implemented steadily, instead of forced upon players, etc.

 

 I can already off the head say, that story team would dread having to sign items, and I, as someone who roleplays the entire process of forging weapons and so on, would dread the fact that it would be most likely useless, because in the end someone who just writes a nicely described item will have the same stats as my item. With current system it is the same, but neither mine, nor their weapon gives any true advantage, they are both just “decorative”.

 And then there is the topic of racial balancing, massive amount of checking whether people won’t exploit the system – which they will sure do, and the response time will be deadly important – and more.

 AND THEN – You have to rewrite magic. Literally every magic has to be rewritten, has to deal damage, has to be balanced out, has to be checked through, has to be properly taken care of, etc.

 

 I would love to have a nice system like that, but it is a work for a 1 year or more of work, not a sudden whim jump. And people will still complain and cry.

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Hmmm this is a very bad idea, thank you for suggesting it. I can only hope you fail to convince a meaningful number of people that this system will be worthwhile, as I have serious doubts criticism will be taken seriously. 

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