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Vortex 0.2.2 Patch Notes: Alchemical Additions


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Congregate, 'lo dominions in herb. Forsooth, spring has blossomed to its séance in your favour.

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1 hour ago, Nozoa said:

Well not really. You can still roleplay alchemy in an expansive and philosophical way, just it's not required, nor is it easy, so people will naturally gravitate towards not roleplaying alchemy like that.

 

'expansive and philosophical way' but with no outcome or progression, it's like teaching people 1 thing with no way of furthering it

"So basically the world is made of symbols and equivalent exchange"

"Can I do that??"
"No you don't have the feat, so that's all the philosophy you have, knowledge about the world that you can never apply"

 

Plenty of things can be taught in a philosophical way, however it's the fact that you'd be inspiring a player with teaching them about symbolism but then having to explain oocly that sadly they can't really pursue it unless they find an alchemist or god forbid managed to get their hands on a most likely hidden away book, because adventuring, experimenting, etc. is gatekept from them.

 

 

- All recipes in Alchemy – as well as the ability to draw symbols from reagents and botany – require an accepted Feat to create, as well as a tier level equating the complexity of said recipe.

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time for monke to make medicine

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19 hours ago, JustMeMorgan said:

 

'expansive and philosophical way' but with no outcome or progression, it's like teaching people 1 thing with no way of furthering it

"So basically the world is made of symbols and equivalent exchange"

"Can I do that??"
"No you don't have the feat, so that's all the philosophy you have, knowledge about the world that you can never apply"

 

Plenty of things can be taught in a philosophical way, however it's the fact that you'd be inspiring a player with teaching them about symbolism but then having to explain oocly that sadly they can't really pursue it unless they find an alchemist or god forbid managed to get their hands on a most likely hidden away book, because adventuring, experimenting, etc. is gatekept from them.

 

 

- All recipes in Alchemy – as well as the ability to draw symbols from reagents and botany – require an accepted Feat to create, as well as a tier level equating the complexity of said recipe.

 

The symbols are essentially like their own language, your character could try figuring them out one by one in a self teaching fashion but they would never truly be able to fully understand the meanings and uses of all the symbols without being properly taught by a trained alchemist, that's just how complicated alchemy is

when taking lessons in alchemy usually the first steps are just lessons on how to identify the symbols at all, to someone not being taught they'd basically be sifting through sand and trying to guess which grain is a symbol and which isn't, while also not knowing what the symbols look like, or what they mean

 

It would be like trying to start deciphering egyptian hieroglyphics without studying what any of them mean first, you're just looking at a wall of pictures in a language you don't understand, you can only guess their meaning.

 

That being my general conclusion ^ on why it would be near impossible [not completely impossible] to RPly discover alchemy on your own

OOCly, yes alchemy must remain locked behind an application system because of the fact that the potions and alchemical recipes that you can make can get to be quite powerful in the higher tiers and something like that cannot just be left to the masses to freely use as they please. A tier system needed to be implemented so that a player can't make an alchemist character day 1 and then start producing badly lore'd Tier 3 alchemy recipes on day 2

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22 hours ago, JustMeMorgan said:

 

'expansive and philosophical way' but with no outcome or progression, it's like teaching people 1 thing with no way of furthering it

"So basically the world is made of symbols and equivalent exchange"

"Can I do that??"
"No you don't have the feat, so that's all the philosophy you have, knowledge about the world that you can never apply"

 

Plenty of things can be taught in a philosophical way, however it's the fact that you'd be inspiring a player with teaching them about symbolism but then having to explain oocly that sadly they can't really pursue it unless they find an alchemist or god forbid managed to get their hands on a most likely hidden away book, because adventuring, experimenting, etc. is gatekept from them.

 

 

- All recipes in Alchemy – as well as the ability to draw symbols from reagents and botany – require an accepted Feat to create, as well as a tier level equating the complexity of said recipe.

 

The only thing that people without a feat are locked from is making potions by crushing up herbs for 5 minutes. There is so much more to alchemy as a concept than the ability to create potions and stuff from herbs. You can absolutely further the role-play of alchemy without the FA. Think about how 'alchemy' lived on for hundreds of years in IRL history but most of the time was never actually anything scientific (you can't actually create lead from gold, nor was any of the symbolism and things like 'dream reading' a reality).

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18 hours ago, Sybbyl0127 said:

OOCly, yes alchemy must remain locked behind an application system because of the fact that the potions and alchemical recipes that you can make can get to be quite powerful in the higher tiers and something like that cannot just be left to the masses to freely use as they please. A tier system needed to be implemented so that a player can't make an alchemist character day 1 and then start producing badly lore'd Tier 3 alchemy recipes on day 2

Spoiler

 

I'mma sorta move past the first part of that paragraph, this topic was not about how difficult alchemy was to learn though I'll agree sure, it's a difficult thing that you might need help on. This argument is about gatekeeping and limiting the number of alchemists

 

It used to be that anyone could pick up alchemy and learn it through books they found and then they could roleplay through it, now it's primarily gatekept by the application lock and that just means it because daunting, especially for newer players to be able to ever get into it.


You have to also remember that alchemy is massive, the amount of things you could do with it were sorta nothing compared to before the rewrites where there was an entire potion index. Players were trusted with themselves to not just metagame potions and for the most part it worked, alchemy now with a feat gives access to so much roleplay, discovery, reasoning for roleplay and adventure.

 

Players with alchemy now want to adventure, find and gather materials, hell make new ones, it's gatekeeping so much roleplay away from the playerbase that used to be freely given for everyone to experience.

 

Take away the ability to experience roleplay and you're simply just taking fun away

 

 

15 hours ago, Nozoa said:

 

The only thing that people without a feat are locked from is making potions by crushing up herbs for 5 minutes. There is so much more to alchemy as a concept than the ability to create potions and stuff from herbs. You can absolutely further the role-play of alchemy without the FA. Think about how 'alchemy' lived on for hundreds of years in IRL history but most of the time was never actually anything scientific (you can't actually create lead from gold, nor was any of the symbolism and things like 'dream reading' a reality).

 

I'm not going to argue with you, sure you can take it as a philosophy but it's not what many players are interested in, alchemy roleplay gave incentive, fun, experimentation, adventure and so on.

 

Going out to hunt creatures for their alchemical reagents from the creature index, looking for herbs and so forth in the wild with a basic honour system made it fun and enjoyable. Taking the freedom away from the playerbase and putting up the wall simply locks so much away from the playerbase.

 

----

Summary and Conclusion.

Spoiler

 

Lastly, to finish this all up, I just want to give an example of how much is gatekept with alchemy.

Spending 5 or so months getting magic to T5 gives you ~10-15 spells per spell slot (e.g. look at voidal evocations for example)

 

Alchemy is a feat that gives you:

18 Potions from - Core Potions

Contrabass concoction

6 potions from infernal alchemy

4 potions from alchemy aesthetic pack

Inheritance Tonic

Fervour Concentrate

5 potions from alteration alchemy

Cockatrice's breath

Siegmund's Candles/Incense

4 potions from medical pack 2

6 potions from medical pack 1

 

So in total managing to luck yourself into an FA, allows you to gain

48

Potions, which are locked behind a simple 'requires roleplay knowledge wall'

 

By locking away alchemy behind an FA, you have not stopped the issue of potential metagame as individuals who have the FA may just simply one day decide they 'have to have known it because so and so knew it', you have also made it easier for it to happen in a way because well, they've got the alchemy FA so they must know how to make Xyz potion?

 

Furthermore, by locking away alchemy behind an FA, all the ingredients, the roleplay, the fun, the adventure, the events and furthermore the enjoyment from this genre, is gatekept from players who may really desire to get into it, however, now have a daunting wall in front of them.

 

 

Edited by JustMeMorgan
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12 minutes ago, JustMeMorgan said:

I'm not going to argue with you, sure you can take it as a philosophy but it's not what many players are interested in, alchemy roleplay gave incentive, fun, experimentation, adventure and so on.

 

Going out to hunt creatures for their alchemical reagents from the creature index, looking for herbs and so forth in the wild with a basic honour system made it fun and enjoyable. Taking the freedom away from the playerbase and putting up the wall simply locks so much away from the playerbase.

How this went from a Vortex announcement to a heated debate on gatekeeping is beyond me. 

You're right, Alchemy's philosophical nature is just wish-wash said to console those without the app, anything said otherwise is just Nozoa being a (epic, lovable) boomer. People want the potions, otherwise why take the Feat? Thing about LotC is that it's just a chaotic heap of players climbing and clawing over each other, trying to pull more and more BS in order to reach the top for a bit of momentary peace and serenity before someone right below them pulls at their ankles, and they go plummeting towards the ground again. You do it, I do it, Noz does it, everyone does. It falls to the ST that push doesn't come to shove and we start eating each other, which at times involves restricting certain things. Can you really trust the population en masse with electromancer potions?

The app isn't the hardest to get if you put in some effort, it's a lot like evocations. You can find someone with the TA to be your OOC overseer if you can't find anyone around you IC. Thing is, people with the TA's are more likely to spend their student slots on people within their immediate vicinity, such as friends. That's just plain logic. And seeing as it takes 3 months for students to teach t3 in Alchemy so that the teacher's slots clear, you can be waiting for awhile. Most new players don't have that kind of patience, which is understandable. 

I think a good solution would be to let ST members act as OOC overseers, only without the student slots of normal teachers. Or at least a higher amount of slots. That way an aspiring alchemist player can still learn, even if all the teachers they know have all their slots full.

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1 hour ago, _SuitAndTie_ said:

You can find someone with the TA to be your OOC overseer if you can't find anyone around you IC. 

 

Promoting the hunting of teachers is the worst idea ever made

 

 

1 hour ago, _SuitAndTie_ said:

I think a good solution would be to let ST members act as OOC overseers, only without the student slots of normal teachers. Or at least a higher amount of slots. That way an aspiring alchemist player can still learn, even if all the teachers they know have all their slots full.

 

I'd be for this really, there are currently ~20+ alchemists on lotc (sounds like a lot but then you have to remember there's like 300-500 players and the number of whom may desire alchemy may be massive. Also furtheremore note that not all of these individuals have TAs.

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1 hour ago, _SuitAndTie_ said:

You're right, Alchemy's philosophical nature is just wish-wash said to console those without the app, anything said otherwise is just Nozoa being a (epic, lovable) boomer. People want the potions, otherwise why take the Feat? Thing about LotC is that it's just a chaotic heap of players climbing and clawing over each other, trying to pull more and more BS in order to reach the top for a bit of momentary peace and serenity before someone right below them pulls at their ankles, and they go plummeting towards the ground again. You do it, I do it, Noz does it, everyone does. It falls to the ST that push doesn't come to shove and we start eating each other, which at times involves restricting certain things. Can you really trust the population en masse with electromancer potions?

Dang, I got straight called out

 

@JustMeMorgan You drive a hard bargain with what you argue, and it does make sense; though I still don't agree with it 100%. Anyway, I'm just gonna call it quits on this argument because its gone on for way too long lol (also because I'm an avid follower of the community guidelines, wink *moderation* wink).

Edited by Nozoa
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2 hours ago, Nozoa said:

Dang, I got straight called out

 

@JustMeMorgan You drive a hard bargain with what you argue, and it does make sense; though I still don't agree with it 100%. Anyway, I'm just gonna call it quits on this argument because its gone on for way too long lol (also because I'm an avid follower of the community guidelines, wink *moderation* wink).

 

We both have points to agree n' disagree with pal ❤️ love the debate from you though as you do raise some good points

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