[✗] [Magic Lore] Malleanism

[Bonito 2263]

It's an interesting idea but some of these spells appear incredibly overpowered or are already satisfied by other magics.

[rukio 8910]

Just now, Kujo said:

It's an interesting idea but some of these spells appear incredibly overpowered or are already satisfied by other magics.

Elaborate 

[QueenGeorge 124]

1 hour ago, Narthok said:

THE TIER SYSTEM WITHIN MALLEANISM

I don’t like the LOTC tier system. All Malleanites from tier 1 to tier 5 will know and be able to participate in the casting of all Mallean effects. HOWEVER Malleanites will have ‘points’ corresponding to their tier. Each ritual takes a certain amount of points that only regenerate every 24 hours. A tier 5 Malleanite can perform a ritual demanding 5 points solo while it would otherwise take 5 tier 1 Malleanites to achieve the same effect. I have chosen to include a 6th tier, T6 will be exclusive to the current cult / coven leader as a reflection of Malleus’s favour. Tier points are as follows

T1 - 2 points

T2 - 4 points

T3 - 6 points

T4 - 8 points

T5 - 10 points

T6 - 20 points

 

T1 - Two OOC weeks 

T2 - Three OOC weeks 

T3 - Five OOC weeks 

T4 - Six OOC weeks 

T5 - (After the last week of T4)

T6 - (Current head of the cult, returns to T5 / their pre head tier when they are no longer head)

 

Referring to the T6 as the Head hereafter. I have some questions regarding it, these aren't targeted questions, I just ask them of a lot of things to imagine how players might push boundaries and break systems. I'm not expecting a detailed answer to every single question either. I offer them as points of interest or concern which you may like to answer and develop further.

 

How would you suggest that a Head is chosen? You propose they're favoured by Malleus, but how is that determined and decided on an OOC level? It's a significant position to hold when they're twice as powerful as a T5 though.

 

Is it simply a matter of a player declaring themselves the Head because they have seniority? Would such a player have to apply for it, and be chosen/approved by the ST? Can a current Head be challenged by a lower tier follower in some way to assume the position in their place?

 

How many Heads are there? Would different communities have different sects, each with their own head?
If there are, what's to stop different people from declaring themselves each as a head but not actually acting like it?

 

If there is only a singular Head. Then how they are determined is even more important.

 

Are there consequences for if the Head dies? Do they lose some power, are their followers affected?

On the note of death. Once a person is the Head, and they have this extra power, what is to stop them from refusing to PK and giving it up if it's possibly a position for life? I admit that's a problem with any RP position of power, but I still ask it indiscriminately and understand PK clauses can be messy. 

 

Does a character need to already be ICly popular in order to take the position of Head? Would this god favour the unknown person who is still truly devout and acting at their gods will? 

 

The above point might matter especially if Heads can choose their successors. Such as if they're dying of old age, or a player is going inactive. Would that have an impact on how they're chosen?

 

What do you do when the Head goes inactive for long periods of time and without warning, but doesn't want to give up their position?

 

-----

 

Here is a hypothetical situation which might make questions like these matter.

 

Currently there is a singular cult. At its top is the Head, and below them are a small number of T5 and a smattering of lower tiers. Each member truly believes in their cause and their god, but one of the T5 and the Head are clashing over the duties of their group and how they should act. After many months, a sizable number of followers support one of either the Challenger or the Head. Though they share the same faith and devotion, the Challenger and their supporters refuse to follow the Head.

How can this conflict be resolved?
Can the Challenger challenge the current Head, and either succeed or fail to obtain the position with appropriate consequences?

Can the Challenger and their followers leave to start their own cult? With the Challenger rising to stand as Head of the new cult?

Can the current Head be killed, either by the Challenger or somebody else, allowing them to be the new Head of the existing cult?

Does someone oocly decide that one or the other is the Head?

Is there some other opportunity to resolve this with both parties being satisfied or some other reasonable result?

Could BOTH be deemed unworthy, and a third party made Head?

 

-----

 

Let me say again that I'm not expecting you to answer all these questions. You can answer whatever interests or concerns you, and some probably will have to be addressed anyway if you wanted to have it accepted as server lore.

[Narthok 9213]

1 minute ago, Kujo said:

It's an interesting idea but some of these spells appear incredibly overpowered or are already satisfied by other magics.

which ones?

[Narthok 9213]

1 minute ago, QueenGeorge said:

 

Referring to the T6 as the Head hereafter. I have some questions regarding it, these aren't targeted questions, I just ask them of a lot of things to imagine how players might push boundaries and break systems. I'm not expecting a detailed answer to every single question either. I offer them as points of interest or concern which you may like to answer and develop further.

 

How would you suggest that a Head is chosen? You propose they're favoured by Malleus, but how is that determined and decided on an OOC level? It's a significant position to hold when they're twice as powerful as a T5 though.

 

Is it simply a matter of a player declaring themselves the Head because they have seniority? Would such a player have to apply for it, and be chosen/approved by the ST? Can a current Head be challenged by a lower tier follower in some way to assume the position in their place?

 

How many Heads are there? Would different communities have different sects, each with their own head?
If there are, what's to stop different people from declaring themselves each as a head but not actually acting like it?

 

If there is only a singular Head. Then how they are determined is even more important.

 

Are there consequences for if the Head dies? Do they lose some power, are their followers affected?

On the note of death. Once a person is the Head, and they have this extra power, what is to stop them from refusing to PK and giving it up if it's possibly a position for life? I admit that's a problem with any RP position of power, but I still ask it indiscriminately and understand PK clauses can be messy. 

 

Does a character need to already be ICly popular in order to take the position of Head? Would this god favour the unknown person who is still truly devout and acting at their gods will? 

 

The above point might matter especially if Heads can choose their successors. Such as if they're dying of old age, or a player is going inactive. Would that have an impact on how they're chosen?

 

What do you do when the Head goes inactive for long periods of time and without warning, but doesn't want to give up their position?

 

-----

 

Here is a hypothetical situation which might make questions like these matter.

 

Currently there is a singular cult. At its top is the Head, and below them are a small number of T5 and a smattering of lower tiers. Each member truly believes in their cause and their god, but one of the T5 and the Head are clashing over the duties of their group and how they should act. After many months, a sizable number of followers support one of either the Challenger or the Head. Though they share the same faith and devotion, the Challenger and their supporters refuse to follow the Head

How can this conflict be resolved?
Can the Challenger challenge the current Head, and either succeed or fail to obtain the position with appropriate consequences?

Can the Challenger and their followers leave to start their own cult? With the Challenger rising to stand as Head of the new cult?

Can the current Head be killed, either by the Challenger or somebody else, allowing them to be the new Head of the existing cult?

Does someone oocly decide that one or the other is the head?

Is there some other opportunity to resolve this with both parties being satisfied?

 

-----

 

Let me say again that I'm not expecting you to answer all these questions. You can answer whatever interests or concerns you, and some probably will have to be addressed anyway if you wanted to have it accepted as server lore.

This is exactly the kind of post I've been looking for thank you for your questions. I'll try to answer them all.

 

-I come from a Norlandic rp background so we have established systems for choosing leaders and for removing those unwilling to step down. In the Red Faith religion, which this 'flavour' of Malleanism is written for (mostly just the aesthetics of the spells) we have something called a 'High Keeper' which is chosen by a 'Hearth Council'. Think of it as a similar mechanism to how the irl pope is chosen. My concept here would be that the popular leader of a mallean cult would be the T6. Keeps things simple, keeps staff from meddling overmuch. doesn't require any PK. This also allows lower tier followers to easily assume the position of 'the head' in circumstances where the head is incompetent or unpopular. With all my RP systems I like to write conflict into the very system so that the system will naturally produce conflict. In the Norlandic legal code there are a number of legal clauses that makes coups or civil wars very easy to trigger. In a similar sense many ambitious members of the cult will always seek to supplant the current head or should they be the current head will have to rply defend their position to maintain the ultra late game power. Ideally this creates player generated 'content' without demanding staff intervention. 

 

In the case of multiple Mallean cults existing, say Malleus started larping as a god named Bill and got some worshippers distinct from the other cults. Then the leader of the Bill cult would become a T6 as well. Obviously players can't just go invent a God and immediately become a T6. There would need to be lengthy cult development and a sizeable population in addition to a number of events where they'd interact with Malleus assuming the identity of their cult god before they could adopt Bill flavoured Malleanism. 

 

-I have not written in any consequences for the head dying, the head just has more mana than everyone else there's not much more to it than that.

 

-For the sake of simplicity I would say IC popularity within the cult would be the primary category. I'd love for a random nobody who was extremely devout to be chosen by the deity but that would just require too much staff intervention.

 

-I don't really want to dictate to cults how they should choose the next head that's something they should come to organically. If they cannot reach a consensus then the most popular option would prevail. 

 

-in the case of head inactivity or an unwillingness to give up their position you'd probably just hold an election or something to remove them and choose a new head of the cult. Keep in mind that the IC leader of the cult would be the mechanic T6.

 

--- 
part 2
-yes, most popular person within the cult becomes the head unless they have some other rply established mechanic (only priests can vote etc)

 

-this is something that I was surprised you hadn't asked, essentially you're asking about what happens in the case of schism. Currently the Red Faith is engaged in a pseudo-schism between adherents of the Arthurian and the Tyrian interpretations of their scripture. In this case while my character is an Arthurian the Tyrian sect is larger and so the Tyrian leader would be the head in my opinion. In cases of equal size I don't see why you couldn't have a head of each schismatic faction. The question of the head  really isn't that important its just additional mana and a way of demonstrating divine favour by virtue of bringing many followers / servants to Malleus.

 

-I suppose so it would depend on the rest of the cult's opinion etc

-no ideally it is decided IRP

-there is almost never a conflict that can be resolved with both parties fully satisfied. In the interest of avoiding excessive bickering I prefer the election / popularity contest because its so much more chaotic and generates so much more content while establishing a clear winner.
 

[Bonito 2263]

21 minutes ago, Narthok said:

which ones?

Ward of the Spiteful God, to give an example, is already a spell that looks identical to the flame trail that fire evocationists have, with both of them lacking an explanation for how you even deal with the wall if you're on the receiving end. Detect witch, resist spell, and salvation can be easily abused by players to dodge consequence. There might be more spells that I missed. Maybe with some more redlining these things could work. You even acknowledged that 'protect me' can be used to force pk people, with the only work around being to hope that the people who froze you are nice enough to undo it or your buddy can find you (probably meta) and free you themselves. Currently, this magic puts a lot of faith on the playerbase and could lead to complete chaos, something that a lot of people in this community will be against and will end with a million more mod rules that everyone has to suffer.

[Narthok 9213]

11 minutes ago, Kujo said:

Ward of the Spiteful God, to give an example, is already a spell that looks identical to the flame trail that fire evocationists have, with both of them lacking an explanation for how you even deal with the wall if you're on the receiving end. Detect witch, resist spell, and salvation can be easily abused by players to dodge consequence. There might be more spells that I missed. Maybe with some more redlining these things could work. You even acknowledged that 'protect me' can be used to force pk people, with the only work around being to hope that the people who froze you are nice enough to undo it or your buddy can find you (probably meta) and free you themselves. Currently, this magic puts a lot of faith on the playerbase and could lead to complete chaos, something that a lot of people in this community will be against and will end with a million more mod rules that everyone has to suffer.

uh a few things, protect me can only be self cast. You can't cast it onother people. its the get out of jail freeish card with a really heavy price tag. if your petrified body gets chucked into a place that it can't be recovered from you're done.

 

The counter to all wards is destroying their glyphs, I put a lot of redlines down restraining glyphs. To make that you need a huge number of casters and it can only do something like block a gateway. The counter to it is to throw rocks / paint / other substances at the glyph obscuring it and rendering it inert. In cases where the glyph is etched into the wall you'd need to get a player to damage the glyph with a pickaxe or a chisel at night. A ward is a stationary spell that takes a huge amount of time to create and only effects a relatively small area. Its no different than the gold lines that block most gates. You can deal with it given sufficient rp preparation. 

 

I'm not sure how you'd abuse detect witch it just tells you that someone nearish to you has magic and doesn't specify who. Resist spell has a really long crafting process, theres a limit to how many you can wear, and it just cuts the strength in half. If you saw someone wearing one you could just chuck a really weak spell at them before unloading your artillery. Salvation is an extremely high level spell that requires you to have several high tier casters around immediately and prevents them from casting anything  for 24 hours. I thought that was sufficient consequence but if its insufficient I can certainly rachet it up. I read the healing guide and didn't want the healing included here to just be a get out of jail free card.  If it seems like that i'll change it around to make it less forgiving.

 

To restate. protect me can only be cast by you, on yourself. You can't soft pk someone else with it, you can only soft pk yourself with it and hope your allies will dispel it.

[Bonito 2263]

41 minutes ago, Narthok said:

The counter to all wards is destroying their glyphs, I put a lot of redlines down restraining glyphs.

Is there anything preventing players from cheesing this? Genuine question, as I went through the sections again and I didn't see anything preventing glyphs from being put somewhere unreachable for the average player, concealing a glyph, placing them behind a different spell like ward of secrets/spiteful god, or even inscribing the glyphs over a material like boomsteel that would force the players to hurt themselves to remove it.

 

41 minutes ago, Narthok said:

I'm not sure how you'd abuse detect witch it just tells you that someone nearish to you has magic and doesn't specify who.

I approach someone I don't like oocly when they're alone, knowing they have a culturally dubious magic, and I now have an excuse to screw them over irp. Not to mention court trials or similar situations where it can be used as a definitive method to spot out mages. Just some I was able to think up, there could be more.

 

41 minutes ago, Narthok said:

Resist spell has a really long crafting process, theres a limit to how many you can wear, and it just cuts the strength in half.

The definition of half should be specified. Would a mystic using saturation only take half of someone's soul? Some magics are less definitive in that taking half of the strength is vague and needs more clarification.

 

41 minutes ago, Narthok said:

If you saw someone wearing one you could just chuck a really weak spell at them before unloading your artillery.

Does this mean the magic is common knowledge? I understand that isn't where you were going with this, but you should clarify that as well if you don't want people conveniently knowing what every glyph does.

 

Hope these questions help, I'd much rather have more ritualistic based magics on here and this has potential.

[Punished_Pup 1353]

Just some advice since this could be a really cool piece of lore, I think just expanding on some of these spells and how they actually work.

For example Detect Witch, I think you'll have a really hard time getting that kinda spell past due to how abusable it could be, situation would be I know OOCly someone is a Witch and I just say RPly my persona decides to check this person, if they resist I know they have some form of magic, if they don't then I find out, but I think making it generally detect any form of magic could prevent it from being abusable as it doesn't strictly target a certain magic. You'll also need to explain more in depth I believe about how this spell functions, is it all magics aside from Malleanism, and why does it affect those magics? I did see you weren't familiar with other magics, so you could outline what determines it, as for example Kani and Chi are sort of just using a type of mana that is natural in all things, you aren't necessarily calling upon a divine power or summoning **** from the Void.

The healing spells will need a bit more fleshing out, I know ST want to be careful with them as they don't want it to be a simple "Whoosh, you're healed."  Though it is interesting with group heal how it leaves them hungry afterwards, so it could be some form of putting the body into overdrive to heal? 

I honestly think with some more work this lore piece could be passed, as it is an interesting set of lore with a brief look over.

 

[Narthok 9213]

42 minutes ago, Kujo said:

Is there anything preventing players from cheesing this? Genuine question, as I went through the sections again and I didn't see anything preventing glyphs from being put somewhere unreachable for the average player, concealing a glyph, placing them behind a different spell like ward of secrets/spiteful god, or even inscribing the glyphs over a material like boomsteel that would force the players to hurt themselves to remove it.

I believe I outlined that the Glyphs had to be clearly represented by signs and blocks. I hadn't thought of people min maxing to that degree tbh. I'll go back and add some restrictions on covering it and such. Putting it out reach would just make its area of effect useless because it wouldn't be able to effect the area you wanted to. Stacking glyphs wouldn't work either but I don't think I explicitly stated that so I'll add that. Boomsteel would blow up if you threw a rock at it no?

42 minutes ago, Kujo said:

I approach someone I don't like oocly when they're alone, knowing they have a culturally dubious magic, and I now have an excuse to screw them over irp. Not to mention court trials or similar situations where it can be used as a definitive method to spot out mages. Just some I was able to think up, there could be more.

I suppose so, though the intent is to detect magic. I suppose your concern is that it legitimizes meta?

42 minutes ago, Kujo said:

The definition of half should be specified. Would a mystic using saturation only take half of someone's soul? Some magics are less definitive in that taking half of the strength is vague and needs more clarification.

Think I'll just remove it, seems like it would spawn way too much ooc calculus bickering about what exactly constitutes half strength.

47 minutes ago, Kujo said:

Does this mean the magic is common knowledge? I understand that isn't where you were going with this, but you should clarify that as well if you don't want people conveniently knowing what every glyph does.

 

Hope these questions help, I'd much rather have more ritualistic based magics on here and this has potential.

Not common knowledge, just spells are not gated behind tiers. A T5 can show a T1 any spell and the T1 will be able to perform it by virtue of it being a divine magic. The T1 will just have much less mana. I've no doubt that people will puzzle out what various glyphs at various locations do over time. I was going to make a whole runic system with different combinations doing different wards but I feel it would be too complex.

 

Thanks for the questions really appreciate you pointing out some of the issues

[warlord of filth 7713]

yay, an actual interesting alternative to void magic. thank you for the piece narthok hope it comes into fruition. 

[DISCOLIQUID 1956]

reserved for personal criticism & appreciations

[Narthok 9213]

1 hour ago, Reforming Pup said:

Just some advice since this could be a really cool piece of lore, I think just expanding on some of these spells and how they actually work.

For example Detect Witch, I think you'll have a really hard time getting that kinda spell past due to how abusable it could be, situation would be I know OOCly someone is a Witch and I just say RPly my persona decides to check this person, if they resist I know they have some form of magic, if they don't then I find out, but I think making it generally detect any form of magic could prevent it from being abusable as it doesn't strictly target a certain magic. You'll also need to explain more in depth I believe about how this spell functions, is it all magics aside from Malleanism, and why does it affect those magics? I did see you weren't familiar with other magics, so you could outline what determines it, as for example Kani and Chi are sort of just using a type of mana that is natural in all things, you aren't necessarily calling upon a divine power or summoning **** from the Void.

The healing spells will need a bit more fleshing out, I know ST want to be careful with them as they don't want it to be a simple "Whoosh, you're healed."  Though it is interesting with group heal how it leaves them hungry afterwards, so it could be some form of putting the body into overdrive to heal? 

I honestly think with some more work this lore piece could be passed, as it is an interesting set of lore with a brief look over.

 

My intent was just as a general warning for proximity magic, but I suppose it activating demands that you have ooc knowledge that a person near you has magic. Seems like a bad design in general. I'll remove it and replace it with someone more innocuous.

 

As for the healing spells, yeah I think i'll add some more downsides, overclocked metabolism / exhausts casters etc.

 

Thanks for the tips

[BobBox 3203]

1 hour ago, Narthok said:

A T5 can show a T1 any spell and the T1 will be able to perform it by virtue of it being a divine magic. The T1 will just have much less mana.

Don't believe this is how other divine magics work, correct me if I'm wrong. T5 spells should be locked behind waiting for T5 to prevent a T1 suddenly knowing every spell.

[Narthok 9213]

4 minutes ago, BobBox said:

Don't believe this is how other divine magics work, correct me if I'm wrong. T5 spells should be locked behind waiting for T5 to prevent a T1 suddenly knowing every spell.

there are no T5 spells in this magic. Higher level spells just take more energy. Almost every spell in the magic system requires multiple people to cast it. What other divine magics do doesn't really matter to me unless its a question of balance.