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Question 1: What is one thing you dislike about Orcs/Krugmar? How can it be improved?
My current dislike with the orcish community is that the community can be quite ****. The discord hosts players who are TOS banned willingly, and they don't really plan or admit to any willingness of changing. From my personal experience, the community is controlled by loud players who hardly every play either. The OOC influence in the community is immaculate, and it really needs to be fixed. From a roleplay stand still, it just hurts after doing so much for a nation by being rex, running the inferi alliance and cleaning up peoples views on orcs, to then go inactive and get whitewashed because I got tired of the community. When I roleplay it feels as if orc players have their mind deadset on achieving a certain outcome and will go out of their way to ignore dialouge in roleplay to achieve it, especially in bandit scenarios and combat. 

Any change of progression in the orcs aslo becomes extremely hindered within the community. If you put full armor on an orc, you are whitewash, if you wear anything besides cloth that covers 20% or more of your skin you are whitewash, and so forth. I was critiqued in my rexdom for having a form of government other then 1v1 for nation leader, or by NOT attacking every living ******* thing. People quit because I told them not to bandit or raid people unless we are at war. I just feel like the community it built on a lot of nonsense to be honest.

My final regard is towards the lore. The codes of krug punishments are only upheld in scenarios when you want to use it against someone, and can be abused with loopholes so I don't feel as if it should have any place as a nations laws. Another thing is shamanism. Last time I went to krugmar and used it, I was called a dark mage for speaking old blah and killed. It really brings out the OOC in the community. The art of shamanism also isn't getting **** on when it is taught to non-orcs. If you don't want the magic to get shelved like a majority of the other shamanism forms, you can't gate keep it to orcs, when most of the active orcs have only played for 2 weeks. Don't get mad when shamanism is handed to another spiritualist character over your orc, because it should be based off of good roleplay not your persona card. I believe most of the ACTIVE shamans are non-orcs, and that should speak for itself. MonkeNotic, Gallic, Runabern, Hefty_Donut, and so forth.

 

Question 2: What is one thing you like/admire about Orcs/Krugmar?

I like the few amount of players that have fun with their orc, and create roleplay for other groups on the server. Toeboil'Raguk is a prime example
 

Question 3: What do you think Orcs/Krugmar biggest opportunity for improvement is?
Clean up your community, try new things.

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Question 1: What is one thing you dislike about Orcs/Krugmar? How can it be improved?

This is all my opinion obv and formed from what little I've seen and heard about Orcs, however.. Their Blessing, specifically what I saw in 'Clarification on Orcs'. The bit I'll link below.

59309aa8cc5fa97e78cf7e4f80c2dba5.png

 

From most of the RP I've seen and heard about Orcs, they're essentially Super Mutants from Fallout 3/4 or LotR Orcs. Big Green Bandits with no goal outside of kill whatever they come across (and or taking slaves in the case of Orcs). Now most 'outsiders' would say this kind of behavior isn't honorable, however, with how the Blessing Clarification is written you can twist anything into being 'honorable' because Honor is subjective, which is true enough, but I'd like to point out the blessing was provided by Aeriel, a lawful good God, who would've had something specific in mind of what is honorable and what isn't, even the quote in the screenshot above indicates that Orcs would be honorable even in a world of Descendants that completely lacked a moral code. From what I understand back in Aegis Orcs are very different from what they are today, hearing tales of Orcs that were wronged would 'raid' the homes of the individual/s that wrong them, but they only came after those that wrong them, not the entire settlement and I don't believe slavery was a thing back then for Orcs and actually actively fought slavers because it was unhonorable to take slaves. 

 

The reason this 'subjective' honor is annoying as well is that isn't really how cultures work at all, how one should act honorable is baked into the culture, take some Greek Stories for example, like The Iliad, it shows Achilles act honorable and dishonorable, whenever he acted with honor he was 'rewarded' in some form, such as when he refused to fight because King Agamemnon wronged him, Zeus agreed to help him by bringing Agamemnon's army to breaking point, later on Agamemnon admits his faults he sends an Embassy to make amends, by returning Briseis and offering gifts to Achilles, so he'd return to fighting, the honorable thing for Achilles here was to accept the gifts and return to the fighting, but he refuses, and because he refused to fight and let his friend Patroclus fight in his steed and Patroclus was killed, so Achilles returns to the fighting anyway, indifferent about getting Briseis and the gifts.

 

From stories like these that span across multiple cultures there is a very set standard on honor in each culture, things like honor do evolve over time, but the way that lore piece was written to me just came across as just attempting to circumvent the blessing with just "Oh it's subjective by individual that should be debated about." You should have what is defined to be honorable and dishonorable somewhere in the culture, what is generally accepted to be, whenever in stories or simple posts making statements about how Orcs should act honorable. Unironically, I think the only posts that I can recall off the top of my head about how to act honorable as an Orc is basically how to treat your slaves.

 

Question 2: What is one thing you like/admire about Orcs/Krugmar?

Can provide interesting RP with the layout of people cursed with a horrible bloodlust with the blessing of acting honorable, they have an interesting predicament which I think can generate interesting and rememberable RP, remember not all conflict has to be physical battle against another, conflict can be a clash of ideologies or internal struggles that one wishes to overcome. The most interesting Orc I remember from the top of my head was ilikefooddude's Orc as it was a refreshing experience from the usual encounters I had at the time, as he was the polar opposite of what the standard Orc was.

 

Question 3: What do you think Orcs/Krugmar biggest opportunity for improvement is?

Redesign the culture, try to promote RP within the Nation aside from just having a strong PvP culture, you need to incorporate all kinds of RP, Slice of Life, conflict, etc, focusing on one is just going to let the Nation die. With the culture write out docs and the like, Nations with strong culture are a lot more appealing, and you need to also keep it interesting, remember anytime anyone reads over what Krug posts or an Orc player posts could be the difference between getting a player or just making them think the Nation is just Goonery. 

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Blah is a quite hard hump for newer players to get over; otherwise Krugmar just needs good leadership to return to powerhouse-dom.

 

Edited by Lickspittle
Fax.
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stop speaking like you have a mental disability "b..b..but the t..tusks"

no more meme tradition like the grubgoth

i want to see serious crp fights between orcs for all reasons ranging from succession to honor

stop wearing lioncloths, put on some pants

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I frankly hate it when orcs ____. Sure yeah, the orc nation is _____, and the playerbase is _____. But overall, the ____ aspect of the community really annoys me and can debatably even be labelled as a problematic (even toxic) aspect of the wider LOTC community. Other people may write meme responses, however I will actually bother to discuss the pressing issues. Completely absurd that things like _____ and _____ have been tolerated for this long.

However.

We cannot let _____ and other past individuals dictate the reputation the orc playerbase currently has. I can see major strides in how ____ krugmar is compared to something like ____ krugmar. It cannot be understated how ____ and ____ have improved for THE BETTER and it'd be disingenuous to not acknowledge that.

In short? ____ ____ ____, ____.

 

- _______

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I concur with Treshure, Blah is the biggest hurdle to the orcs for new players. It's so ridiculous that using blah to speak in code isn't unviable. The orc would be much more engaging if they dropped the accent and began using the language rather than the style of writing. 

 

 

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Question 1: What is one thing you dislike about Orcs/Krugmar? How can it be improved?

 

Orcs are lacking honor. Not all, of course, but a number of them which I refuse to name. People are treating honor as if it does not exist, and treating bloodlust as a blessing instead of a curse. Orcs out there are killing children, harming innocent civillians...how can you call this honor? You can say it's "for the spirits" and "whatever the spirits let me do" but come on, at that point, anyone could go around being a **** doing the things you do and then what's the point of honor? I think I have also noticed many ologs who are more intelligent than supposed to, but I'm not sure as I'm generally not within Krug that much. There is also A LOT of pvp goons, which isn't good as the roleplay often ends up memey and flavourless. Sure, it can be fun, but sometimes it crosses the line. Please watch out for these things, I believe they can improve the Krugmar experience.

 

Question 2: What is one thing you like/admire about Orcs/Krugmar?

 

I love the culture, but unfortunately as stated above we do not see it that much. The RP can be very funny sometimes and it's always great to reunite with old bruddahs. I also love how shamans are actually not that easy to be good with, as in, close enough to get them to teach you (maybe thats just me tho :P )

 

Question 3: What do you think Orcs/Krugmar biggest opportunity for improvement is?

 Not the biggest but I feel like the snaga system should be improved (unless they havent already been), because its sorta inbetween actual slavery and then just people walking around in common clothes acting like humans and so on...

 

P.S. Please take this with a bit of salt, because I am not active in Krugmar. Bless you.

19 hours ago, Tentoa said:

I concur with Treshure, Blah is the biggest hurdle to the orcs for new players. It's so ridiculous that using blah to speak in code isn't unviable. The orc would be much more engaging if they dropped the accent and began using the language rather than the style of writing. 

 

 

To be fair with you, blah isn't that difficult. It can be learnt within 2 hours or so with just trial and error...of course not for everybody but this is what I gathered how it went for most people including myself...da waey zome blah tho...zhould bee wurked oan, it ahm neer uneentellijibl' (the way some talk though...should be worked on, it is near unintelligible) Including myself lol

On 6/4/2021 at 7:03 AM, Yakith_Lizard said:

stop speaking like you have a mental disability "b..b..but the t..tusks"

no more meme tradition like the grubgoth

i want to see serious crp fights between orcs for all reasons ranging from succession to honor

stop wearing lioncloths, put on some pants

The speaking is ok but sometimes too much, you should talk to more orcs to see not everyone speaks like they have a thighbone in their throat

How is grubgoth a meme tradition, it is our people's CHEF! Who will feed our poor little orc tummies...

Me too.

But pants are boring, everyone's wearing them!

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On 6/3/2021 at 2:51 PM, Reforming Pup said:

Question 1: What is one thing you dislike about Orcs/Krugmar? How can it be improved?

This is all my opinion obv and formed from what little I've seen and heard about Orcs, however.. Their Blessing, specifically what I saw in 'Clarification on Orcs'. The bit I'll link below.

59309aa8cc5fa97e78cf7e4f80c2dba5.png

 

From most of the RP I've seen and heard about Orcs, they're essentially Super Mutants from Fallout 3/4 or LotR Orcs. Big Green Bandits with no goal outside of kill whatever they come across (and or taking slaves in the case of Orcs). Now most 'outsiders' would say this kind of behavior isn't honorable, however, with how the Blessing Clarification is written you can twist anything into being 'honorable' because Honor is subjective, which is true enough, but I'd like to point out the blessing was provided by Aeriel, a lawful good God, who would've had something specific in mind of what is honorable and what isn't, even the quote in the screenshot above indicates that Orcs would be honorable even in a world of Descendants that completely lacked a moral code. From what I understand back in Aegis Orcs are very different from what they are today, hearing tales of Orcs that were wronged would 'raid' the homes of the individual/s that wrong them, but they only came after those that wrong them, not the entire settlement and I don't believe slavery was a thing back then for Orcs and actually actively fought slavers because it was unhonorable to take slaves. 

 

The reason this 'subjective' honor is annoying as well is that isn't really how cultures work at all, how one should act honorable is baked into the culture, take some Greek Stories for example, like The Iliad, it shows Achilles act honorable and dishonorable, whenever he acted with honor he was 'rewarded' in some form, such as when he refused to fight because King Agamemnon wronged him, Zeus agreed to help him by bringing Agamemnon's army to breaking point, later on Agamemnon admits his faults he sends an Embassy to make amends, by returning Briseis and offering gifts to Achilles, so he'd return to fighting, the honorable thing for Achilles here was to accept the gifts and return to the fighting, but he refuses, and because he refused to fight and let his friend Patroclus fight in his steed and Patroclus was killed, so Achilles returns to the fighting anyway, indifferent about getting Briseis and the gifts.

 

From stories like these that span across multiple cultures there is a very set standard on honor in each culture, things like honor do evolve over time, but the way that lore piece was written to me just came across as just attempting to circumvent the blessing with just "Oh it's subjective by individual that should be debated about." You should have what is defined to be honorable and dishonorable somewhere in the culture, what is generally accepted to be, whenever in stories or simple posts making statements about how Orcs should act honorable. Unironically, I think the only posts that I can recall off the top of my head about how to act honorable as an Orc is basically how to treat your slaves.

 

Question 2: What is one thing you like/admire about Orcs/Krugmar?

Can provide interesting RP with the layout of people cursed with a horrible bloodlust with the blessing of acting honorable, they have an interesting predicament which I think can generate interesting and rememberable RP, remember not all conflict has to be physical battle against another, conflict can be a clash of ideologies or internal struggles that one wishes to overcome. The most interesting Orc I remember from the top of my head was ilikefooddude's Orc as it was a refreshing experience from the usual encounters I had at the time, as he was the polar opposite of what the standard Orc was.

 

Question 3: What do you think Orcs/Krugmar biggest opportunity for improvement is?

Redesign the culture, try to promote RP within the Nation aside from just having a strong PvP culture, you need to incorporate all kinds of RP, Slice of Life, conflict, etc, focusing on one is just going to let the Nation die. With the culture write out docs and the like, Nations with strong culture are a lot more appealing, and you need to also keep it interesting, remember anytime anyone reads over what Krug posts or an Orc player posts could be the difference between getting a player or just making them think the Nation is just Goonery. 

I agree with you very much. Excellently put, kudos to you.

But one thing is the slice of life stuff...its not the same for orcs and for example elves or humans, dont know about dwarves since they're similarly barbaric...but I was going to say something about it that I think is from a warhammer game (yes, I know orcs in warhammer are much different than on LotC but hear me out), and I cannot find the original quote but it went something like this;

For an orc, killing someone with your bare hands first thing in the morning and then getting those same hands chopped off in a battle later is a perfectly good day. 

This is how it is different for orcs (and maybe dwarves, as I said I'm not sure), of course it isn't THAT extreme but simply orcs do not sit around drink tea go on dinners, we spent most of the time fighting and training or what have you, working even, hunting, conceptualizing new weapons, perhaps siege weapons if you're a goblin, you get the gist of it, that's how our slice of life is, and so we have it. 

On 6/3/2021 at 2:45 PM, Qizu said:

Question 1: What is one thing you dislike about Orcs/Krugmar? How can it be improved?
My current dislike with the orcish community is that the community can be quite ****. The discord hosts players who are TOS banned willingly, and they don't really plan or admit to any willingness of changing. From my personal experience, the community is controlled by loud players who hardly every play either. The OOC influence in the community is immaculate, and it really needs to be fixed. From a roleplay stand still, it just hurts after doing so much for a nation by being rex, running the inferi alliance and cleaning up peoples views on orcs, to then go inactive and get whitewashed because I got tired of the community. When I roleplay it feels as if orc players have their mind deadset on achieving a certain outcome and will go out of their way to ignore dialouge in roleplay to achieve it, especially in bandit scenarios and combat. 

Any change of progression in the orcs aslo becomes extremely hindered within the community. If you put full armor on an orc, you are whitewash, if you wear anything besides cloth that covers 20% or more of your skin you are whitewash, and so forth. I was critiqued in my rexdom for having a form of government other then 1v1 for nation leader, or by NOT attacking every living ******* thing. People quit because I told them not to bandit or raid people unless we are at war. I just feel like the community it built on a lot of nonsense to be honest.

My final regard is towards the lore. The codes of krug punishments are only upheld in scenarios when you want to use it against someone, and can be abused with loopholes so I don't feel as if it should have any place as a nations laws. Another thing is shamanism. Last time I went to krugmar and used it, I was called a dark mage for speaking old blah and killed. It really brings out the OOC in the community. The art of shamanism also isn't getting **** on when it is taught to non-orcs. If you don't want the magic to get shelved like a majority of the other shamanism forms, you can't gate keep it to orcs, when most of the active orcs have only played for 2 weeks. Don't get mad when shamanism is handed to another spiritualist character over your orc, because it should be based off of good roleplay not your persona card. I believe most of the ACTIVE shamans are non-orcs, and that should speak for itself. MonkeNotic, Gallic, Runabern, Hefty_Donut, and so forth.

 

Question 2: What is one thing you like/admire about Orcs/Krugmar?

I like the few amount of players that have fun with their orc, and create roleplay for other groups on the server. Toeboil'Raguk is a prime example
 

Question 3: What do you think Orcs/Krugmar biggest opportunity for improvement is?
Clean up your community, try new things.

I agree with you on the too much OOC goes into RP part, it really sucks

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i think luci put it very well in her post, but uh... maybe a start could be removing this? or other things like it, if there are more? lmao

3762e1733ff9a5bc6cfe9fbe2fe09ce4.png

not very cool explaining this is some ooc toxic junk to a new player when we were exploring the city

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On 6/2/2021 at 2:04 PM, Bhased said:

stop calling my nation a pedo nation please, if you got legitimate evidence send it my way and i'll remove them and get them banned like I have been doing

unknown.png
image.thumb.png.11b4c35bbe9fac0775c73a47dd038786.png

cheers brother

 

See the source image

 

 

Scratch that specific quote this entire forum post comment section getting HEATED
I agree with almost all of it but damn

 

686b7d2bedf689185d92f93ce22dc8b1.png

 

I've seen this happen a little while ago in the Krugmar Discord actually, if I remember correctly it was TheNanMan2000 and Cheezy_Garlik saying some transphobic stuff in the memes channel or something. Probably shouldn't use that to judge the entire community but its worrying that it has a history of happening and is still happening.

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Hey all, wanted to give my own impressions on everything as well as respond to some of the more concerning topics brought up throughout this conversation.

 

It has been clear the orc community has struggled with having OOC hostility, discrimination, and overall toxic members in the past, the names of whom could easily be brought up as examples. Even after being banned, some of these members have remained active in Krugmar's various discords despite server rules calling for their removal. This is obviously unacceptable and is a situation that leadership is working to improve upon. We all want to have a healthier and more inclusive community, and are putting the time and effort to lead the orcs in that direction. The brought up example in @MonkeNotic's post resulted in NanMan (an already banned player) getting removed from the discord and a temporary ban for the still active player, as well as a discussion wherein they agreed not to make such harmful statements again. I would like to disagree with you @Qizu on the idea we still harbor such intolerance willingly. 

 

In terms of @Nug's post; I along with the rest of leadership were not aware that was something steeped in toxicity. An issue with the frequent changes in leadership we have had up until now (not to mention the turnover of orcs in general) is that a lot of current players are unaware of the communities past. Issues like this can slip through the cracks simply because so much of the community is new players, or returning veterans who have been gone for x amount of time. That being said, we will make every effort to remove remnants of old toxicity from the community, both in game and out.

 

Now, to answer the questions from the OP.

 

1. What is one thing you dislike about Orcs/Krugmar? How can it be improved?

 

I believe all the problems Krugmar has can stem from one concept, and that is inconsistency. Inconsistency with our own lore and so many parts of it being shelved or inactive (or not even written down) makes it difficult to roleplay as an orc. How can you follow the codes of krug when there are two conflicting posts that different parts of the community believe are legitimate? How can you learn magic if a majority of the shamanism teachers are inactive and core parts of the magic have been shelved for months if not years? How can there be a sense of community if leadership roles exchange hands akin to a game of hot potato?

Inconsistency with our playerbase, a lack of events and coordination causing a player-race wide dead zone where dynamic roleplay and chances to give players meaningful and fun experiences are almost non-existent.

Inconsistency with outreach and connections to server staff; a perception of Krugmar being a dead playerbase causes a lack of attention towards lore, events, or community involvement with those players that do exist. I have had people tell me upfront that submissions for lore or event ideas are going to be ignored, simply because of a belief that "the playerbase [for it] will flop".

 

2. What is one thing you admire/like most about Krugmar?

 

I have to say one thing I admire about Krugmar is the willingness to have dynamic roleplay. When I see an orc player who has taken injuries, lost a fight, etc;.. They accept the consequences of RP and conflict in a way that shows the passion to tell a meaningful story through their character even if it means their persona faces defeat. Each orc character I interact with feels truly unique, from their habits and mannerisms to their aspirations and struggles. The orcs are alright with losing, whether that be mechanically or in RP, for the sake of creating a wonderful and interesting experience, and I think that is one of the most important aspects to consider when judging an RP community.

 

3. What do you think Krugmar's biggest opportunity for improvement is?

How can it be improved? Simple, allow for some consistency to be made in the first place. Support efforts to get the shamanism, spirit, and story of Krug lore finely polished and coherent with the rest of the server in a way that doesn't marginalize the playerbase. Have leadership and staff work together on creating dynamic events and plotlines for Orc characters so that they are not forced to twiddle their thumbs or say "let's just go raiding". Allow the Orc community to speak for itself on how it is improving instead of demonizing it as a maurauding band of toxic homophobic PvP-goons and alts. Encourage players interested in RPing as orcs to actually stick with it and try the culture, instead of declaring them whitewash because joebob1234 with the pink name doesn't understand what Blah is. Simply put? Give the orc community a chance to be more than the stereotype, and it will flourish... We might not have a large community, but each player we do have is very passionate about their persona and LoTC in general.

 

 

 

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Really late to this post but I feel like talking about it.  

 

To anyone saying blah is a severe issue in playing the race is lying, or at least being incredibly dishonest. It's very easy to put (Blah) in front of posts and type normally, or simply speak in common because of underdeveloped tusks, character preference, etc, etc. Most of the playerbase is pretty tolerant, and its only been enforced as mandatory when older heads want to flex their clout.
 

Question 1: What is one thing you dislike about Orcs/Krugmar? How can it be improved?
Everyone is toxic and pvps on this server, its Lord of the Craft. I think some leaders have condoned some really gross actions, but as a playerbase the most that needs to be done is reporting/rejecting bad players. Don't really think its a race thing, moreso a community issue.   

 

I think the main issue with the orcs is our sense of structure and organization. The average player has so many old documents and cultural posts to understand how to play an orc that much of the interesting elements never get picked up, or are diluted/misinterpreted in passing glance.

 

All of the cool shamanism/history/cultural/in game rp stuff needs to be centralized and presented in a way so that new players know what they can and can't do rather then bouncing around a hub, waiting for someone to give them a hunt or spirit walk. 

 

Orcs complain(myself included) about how elves and non-orc races get shamanism, but for the most part, many shamans are inactive or actively make the experience more difficult for people wanting to learn or experience shamanism due to OOC. Shamanism needs to be culturally present so that once a shaman leaves or the LT decides to change things the magic everything doesn't fall apart.

 

THIS IS THE MAIN ISSUE WITH ORCS

Anytime someone significant in the community leaves(whether a rex, shaman, lore holder, pvp rallier,etc), there's this intense power vacuum where old heads pop up from the woodwork and new players are left in the dark about what they can do, or worse, harassed. Rewriting magics or telling people not to be toxic is not a long term solution. That sentiment has been repeated since 2013 and clearly its not working.  The lore for orcs and shamanism needs to be amended so that players can easily understand how they can develop interesting and engaging characters. Doesn't necessarily mean a rewrite, but simply a better collection and organization of past works and ideas.

 

Question 2: What is one thing you like/admire about Orcs/Krugmar?

Orcs are an extremely positive playerbase, and even though in the last half of this decade the numbers have declined, they've made noteworthy bounds towards resurging a few times. I enjoy the playerbase, the roleplay, the magic, and just the aspect of playing an orc. I think they're one of the most interesting races thematically, whether as a shaman or simply an orc. The nature of actual spirituality being real, and roleplaying a shaman (and dark shaman) provide really interesting points of discussion in character, or when talking with other magic/player groups.  I think rather then just raiding, a lot more could be done in interacting with the other races which would bolster activity. A trog, tributaries, shaman/ancestral pilgrimages, etc

 

Question 3: What do you think Orcs/Krugmar biggest opportunity for improvement is?

The biggest opportunity for improvement is definitely in organizing lore, information, and players. I think right now there are a lot of people who really want to see orcs do better, and I think this post is reflective of that. Hopefully this doesn't get buried and we don't look back on it in a few years repeating the same topics. I really don't think "fixing" or increasing the playerbase of orcs would be that difficult, its a matter of retention and working collaboratively. 

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