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Four Prophets or Five Prophets?


yopplwasupxxx
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Cardinal Gawain, a hidden Lendian, immediately felt enraged by the mention about the condemnation of their messianic figure. He fumed in his inner thoughts and wished all evil upon this man. For about twenty minutes, the Cardinal began to look up the priestly records of this 'Clement' to get back at him, that is, until he realized that it was an alias. When that realization dawned on him, he so absolutely fumed that his voice gave away and he could barely speak for an entire week.

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"Most noble Clement,

 

I appreciate your good intentions and note much truth here previously unappreciated. Your knowledge of the Holy Scriptures indeed does you great credit. I feel that, if, in accordance with your good wishes, the Primordial Man were more openly venerated, loved and known, then all Descendants might embrace one another as the co-heirs of a single man; of an original Covenant. And then might all of us be blissfully gathered under the motherly mantle of the Church, to love and praise God forever and ever. 

 

It is therefore with deepest respect that I wish to put forth a criticism: not to refute your argument, because I see its end is good and want to see it win, but to improve and refine it.

 

You argue that the worship of God, striving to be faithful to Him, and worshipping Him in manners like the Tabernacle reveal an unwritten Revelation, something handed on (tradere, to hand on), but this is not necessarily the case. First of all, as you yourself noted, God has planted a wealth of virtue into the hearts of every rational creature, viz., will and intellect: the ability to know and love Almighty God. (Vir. 2:5, etc.) And note, mark you, that when the Primordial Man was created, he was without sin. There was, therefore, nothing inhibiting his ability to know God intellectually, and to love Him wilfully. 

 

This capacity to know and love God is not necessarily the product of Revelation. As I demonstrated by scriptural and rational proofs in the first Article of Summa Theologica, God's existence is knowable with certain by the natural light of human reason. God has placed within the heart of every man reason and will by which he may strive to live by the moral law.

 

For indeed, all creatures are expected to live by the Virtue: "These moral laws reflect the will of God, which must be obeyed by all sapient creatures." (Catechism of the Canonist Church.) And one of these virtues is Faith. Now Faith must necessarily precede Divine Revelation, or else how could those without Revelation be expected to live it; how could that virtue be binding unto them? It must be, therefore, that Faith has a natural and a supernatural expression. The natural expression is the striving to know and love God and worshipping Him by some means. The supernatural expression is the assent of the intellect to divinely revealed truths. 

 

Could it not be, then, that this is an expression of natural law, and not Divine Revelation? For how can any of us be so far from Him? As one philosopher said, in Him we live, and move, and have our being. 

 

I leave this little point open for your consideration.

 

I remain your humble servant,

 

Brother Williams, FSSCT."

Edited by thesmellypocket
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Vladrick Bishop Pocitanata Maika would read the thesis " This Clement has a interesting theory" he'd muse to himself before returning to the construction of the Capital of the Vasoyevi

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On 6/9/2021 at 5:27 AM, thesmellypocket said:

-snip-

"Dear Friend,

 

Blessings upon you and your house, with earnest Love of Man. I received your letter recently and I found your points regarding my essay intriguing and enlightening. You bring forth issues within the logic of my paper that definitely require direct address, and so in response to your criticism I wish to address your points diligently and attempt to give counterpoints of my own.

 

Let me begin by first listing the premises made in your letter.

 

First, you correctly state that knowing or discerning the existence of God does not require any form of direct or indirect revelation from the Divine; rather, the Divine can be conceived vis-a-vis reason (i.e “the Light of Wisdom”, Gsp 1:28). To quote Blessed Pius, “The existence of God … [is] knowable with certainty by the natural light of human reason…” I do not contest this point and I concede that the act of knowing God is not a direct revelation in of itself.

 

Second, you state that loving or worshipping God does not ascertain a divine revelation either. I agree that all descendants bear the innate capacity to love God- that is, every man and woman born is somehow and some way innately and instrisictly constructed and wired to both want and desire an intimate relationship with God. Within every soul is a void, a hole which can only be filled by Him. This can be proven, as you point out, by the fact that Faith is recorded within the Scroll of Virtue, which is law for all descendants according to traditional church teachings (though I will get back to this point later in the letter).

 

Third, you state that knowing to be virtuous can also be reached by Intellection. To quote, “God has placed within the heart of every man reason and will by which he may strive to live by the moral law.” Because we innately want to love God, and loving God includes living virtuous lives and following the moral law he put down, we therefore crave to be honorable and noble in heart.

 

However, even with all this true, I argue there still is a revelation in the form of a primordial Tradition. Mainly, I argue that reason alone cannot lead someone to total unity with God. Let me explain.

 

First, let us look at the aengudaemons, specifically daemons. Daemons are creatures born from God’s breath (Gsp 1:6). They rule “all that is not” (Gsp 1:7) yet we know this place is not the Void, as such a place is forbidden to the aengudaemons (Gsp 1:8). As they are tasked with the ruling, we can most likely infer they have a capacity for reason. They are also given some form of free will and ability to be worldly,  as can be seen in the fact that he is both proud (Gsp 1:14) and can desire to overthrow his Heavenly Maker (Gsp 1:16). Daemons can choose whether to believe in God or not, whether to doubt Him or not. Later, he conspires and nearly successfully seduces the Four Sons to renounce God for the world. Through all this, I believe we can deduce there is some capacity of reason. We can also presume that despite Iblees’ fall, there most likely still is daemons who actively believe and follow God’s Will.

 

However, daemons are not God’s favored creatures; the descendants are (more specifically, the Primordial Man and Woman, Gsp 1:30). Why?

 

I believe there must be something more than reason; this can be supported in our Canonist cosmology and church doctrines. A Norlander, for example, can live a virtuous life with his pure, God-given Intellection. But, since he lives in a place traditionally hostile to Canonism, he will most likely never research and seek the validity of the Scrolls. He is instilled from birth till death of the truth of their religion, and indeed he would use some of the same reasoning in Summa Theologica to support his belief in the All-Father and greater pantheon. We know, however, that God is merciful and he is still able to walk the skies, but only the First Sky (Catechism of the Canonist Church). He can never achieve a status beyond this, even if he is the most virtuous, honorable, and principled man. He has the capacity of Faith, as listed in the Scroll of Virtue, but this faith is seemingly misguided and leaves him only in the Skies’ periphery. Something more is needed to be closer to Him. But what is this thing which allows us to get closer, to be like the Saints and other blessed men and women?

 

To walk ever deeper into the halls of the Seven Skies, there must be some method, practice, or other action, deed, or what have you that separates the Descendants from all other creatures, and furthermore all Canonists from non-believers. If it is merely believing in God, then there is no reason why the Daemons (or even beastfolk, ie Kha’men, Frogmen, Mousemen, etc.) could not be as favored as the Descendants. If it using reason to ascertain that there is an Absolute or Divinity, as well as living a virtuous life, then there is no reason why heathens cannot enter the Skies as close as prophets (do they not believe in a form of God, even if it is a Burning Bush?). What is it then which separates Believer from non-Believer, which separates the Primordial Man from all others? Is it a praxis of worship (i.e. Canonist Church Tradition and rites)? A form of prayer (i.e. meditation, devotionals)? A set of primordial laws? Maybe it is just the fact we have this ‘Light of Wisdom’? But what is this ‘Light of Wisdom’ if not the capability and yearning to find God? I do not know, this would require more study. But I do know that there is something which made the Primordial Man stand apart from the rest of creation, and reason alone cannot be the mere cause of such lofty status.

 

Please send me your thoughts and forgive the hasty nature of this letter, as this week has been quite busy for myself, yet I still wished to address your letter as the thoughts laid fresh in everyone’s minds.

 

God be with you,

Pseudo-Clement"

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On 6/12/2021 at 1:13 AM, yopplwasupxxx said:

"Dear Friend,

 

Blessings upon you and your house, with earnest Love of Man. I received your letter recently and I found your points regarding my essay intriguing and enlightening. You bring forth issues within the logic of my paper that definitely require direct address, and so in response to your criticism I wish to address your points diligently and attempt to give counterpoints of my own.

 

Let me begin by first listing the premises made in your letter.

 

First, you correctly state that knowing or discerning the existence of God does not require any form of direct or indirect revelation from the Divine; rather, the Divine can be conceived vis-a-vis reason (i.e “the Light of Wisdom”, Gsp 1:28). To quote Blessed Pius, “The existence of God … [is] knowable with certainty by the natural light of human reason…” I do not contest this point and I concede that the act of knowing God is not a direct revelation in of itself.

 

Second, you state that loving or worshipping God does not ascertain a divine revelation either. I agree that all descendants bear the innate capacity to love God- that is, every man and woman born is somehow and some way innately and instrisictly constructed and wired to both want and desire an intimate relationship with God. Within every soul is a void, a hole which can only be filled by Him. This can be proven, as you point out, by the fact that Faith is recorded within the Scroll of Virtue, which is law for all descendants according to traditional church teachings (though I will get back to this point later in the letter).

 

Third, you state that knowing to be virtuous can also be reached by Intellection. To quote, “God has placed within the heart of every man reason and will by which he may strive to live by the moral law.” Because we innately want to love God, and loving God includes living virtuous lives and following the moral law he put down, we therefore crave to be honorable and noble in heart.

 

However, even with all this true, I argue there still is a revelation in the form of a primordial Tradition. Mainly, I argue that reason alone cannot lead someone to total unity with God. Let me explain.

 

First, let us look at the aengudaemons, specifically daemons. Daemons are creatures born from God’s breath (Gsp 1:6). They rule “all that is not” (Gsp 1:7) yet we know this place is not the Void, as such a place is forbidden to the aengudaemons (Gsp 1:8). As they are tasked with the ruling, we can most likely infer they have a capacity for reason. They are also given some form of free will and ability to be worldly,  as can be seen in the fact that he is both proud (Gsp 1:14) and can desire to overthrow his Heavenly Maker (Gsp 1:16). Daemons can choose whether to believe in God or not, whether to doubt Him or not. Later, he conspires and nearly successfully seduces the Four Sons to renounce God for the world. Through all this, I believe we can deduce there is some capacity of reason. We can also presume that despite Iblees’ fall, there most likely still is daemons who actively believe and follow God’s Will.

 

However, daemons are not God’s favored creatures; the descendants are (more specifically, the Primordial Man and Woman, Gsp 1:30). Why?

 

I believe there must be something more than reason; this can be supported in our Canonist cosmology and church doctrines. A Norlander, for example, can live a virtuous life with his pure, God-given Intellection. But, since he lives in a place traditionally hostile to Canonism, he will most likely never research and seek the validity of the Scrolls. He is instilled from birth till death of the truth of their religion, and indeed he would use some of the same reasoning in Summa Theologica to support his belief in the All-Father and greater pantheon. We know, however, that God is merciful and he is still able to walk the skies, but only the First Sky (Catechism of the Canonist Church). He can never achieve a status beyond this, even if he is the most virtuous, honorable, and principled man. He has the capacity of Faith, as listed in the Scroll of Virtue, but this faith is seemingly misguided and leaves him only in the Skies’ periphery. Something more is needed to be closer to Him. But what is this thing which allows us to get closer, to be like the Saints and other blessed men and women?

 

To walk ever deeper into the halls of the Seven Skies, there must be some method, practice, or other action, deed, or what have you that separates the Descendants from all other creatures, and furthermore all Canonists from non-believers. If it is merely believing in God, then there is no reason why the Daemons (or even beastfolk, ie Kha’men, Frogmen, Mousemen, etc.) could not be as favored as the Descendants. If it using reason to ascertain that there is an Absolute or Divinity, as well as living a virtuous life, then there is no reason why heathens cannot enter the Skies as close as prophets (do they not believe in a form of God, even if it is a Burning Bush?). What is it then which separates Believer from non-Believer, which separates the Primordial Man from all others? Is it a praxis of worship (i.e. Canonist Church Tradition and rites)? A form of prayer (i.e. meditation, devotionals)? A set of primordial laws? Maybe it is just the fact we have this ‘Light of Wisdom’? But what is this ‘Light of Wisdom’ if not the capability and yearning to find God? I do not know, this would require more study. But I do know that there is something which made the Primordial Man stand apart from the rest of creation, and reason alone cannot be the mere cause of such lofty status.

 

Please send me your thoughts and forgive the hasty nature of this letter, as this week has been quite busy for myself, yet I still wished to address your letter as the thoughts laid fresh in everyone’s minds.

 

God be with you,

Pseudo-Clement"

"Dear Pseudo-Clement,

 

I do not wish to labour the point much further, and I also must write hastily. 

 

The Norlander does not possess Faith insofar as he follows a false religion. In the sense that we understand the term "God", Norlanders are basically atheists, because they reject what we call God, viz. Absolute Being, instead basically believing in a very powerful creature, which even an atheist can believe in. The arguments in the Summa do not prove such a "god." They are not worshipping God in any sense, but the Enemy, eager to deceive sinful man, substituted the one true "Father of All Things" for this false creature, and seducing them by this category error. You will see clearly proven in the next Summa articles the properties of God.

 

Hence sin and error cloud man's judgement, and leave him open to such deceit. For whilst the one true God can be known (Not in His ineffable glory, but the fact of His existence and excellence), yet does man possess perfect reason? Does not pride cloud his judgement? The faculty of reason in the intellect and love in the will is supressed. Revelation is necessary to repair the damage of sin, because it allows men to know as revealed truths even those things which reason proves, but which pride clouds.

 

Now this Primordial Man was created without sin. And hence, there would have been nothing to cloud his judgement, in respect of those natural truths which can be known by reason. Nothing would also have inhibited his LOVE of God, even without Divine Revelation. Now, whilst the religious expressions of idolaters are not exercises of Faith but self-deceit, nevertheless they do reveal a religious instinct that is natural to man. Man could even be called an inherently religious being, so universal are these expressions. There is also the truth that the Man was very proximate to God, not being removed by a natural world which appears to be self-sufficient, and having no human parents. He could not, then, have fallen into the errors of materialism, atheism, pantheism, polytheism, or other false philosophies. 

 

I do not see, therefore, how the Man would not have naturally expressed this religion. Without the sin of pride, he would be totally humble and conscious of his own nothingness before God. He would known God as the source of all his gifts and as being deserving of all worship. He would have known God as the fount of virtue, which must needs be adored if man is to gain perfection in any virtue; and the only Source of life, without which a man must perish everlastingly. This universal religious expression would finds its true and natural end in the Primordial Man, who knows God intellectually, loves Him wilfully, and expresses that love worshipfully.

 

Basically, there are several premises:

 

I.Man has been given the capacity of will and intellect.

II.These capacities enable him to love and to know God.

III.Man has a natural religious expression which happens independently of revelation.

IV.This religious expression is twisted and directed towards idols, or the "creature-god" of the Norlanders, on account of sins, especially pride and carnality.

V.The Primordial Man was not thus inhibited, and moreover knew God intimately as his Creator.

VI.Hence he would have used his capacities properly to know and love God. 

VII.Hence this religious instinct in man would express itself toward its proper end.

VIII.Therefore, it was possible for the PM to worship God in some way by expressions independent of Revelation. 

 

However the cloudings of sin created the need for Revelation to teach even those truths accessible to Man. Furthermore, there are also inaccessible truths beyond rational understanding which would need to be revealed from above; beyond, but not contrary to human reason. 

 

I remain your humble servant,

 

Br. Thomas."

 

 

 

 

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