[✗] Darasvira: Disciples of the Aspects' Hand

[The Media Wizard 2954]

1 minute ago, NomadGaia said:

I can agree with a lot of these points, though there are some I still don't agree with. The Azdrazi are so much more than dragon people, they live and fight for certain reasons- their niche goes beyond that. Just as the niche for this particular lore piece goes beyond it as well. The aesthetic is similar, yes, I understand that, but that shouldn't exclude other dragon-kin races from the server's lore. Azdromoth is not the only dragon, after all, and that's been the case for a long time.

 

I do agree with your first point, however. If these two groups are to coexist, and butt heads irp, there should be more communication oocly between them.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing the lore go forward as well! Let's GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

The Azdrazi are much more than dragon people; however, they are dragon people.

 

I agree with all that you said past that. I am fine with multiple dragon factions. I just want to make sure that they are written cooperatively and are careful not to exclude or disregard the work of other dragon lorewriters.

[Kalehart 1062]

1 hour ago, Kneeil said:

 

It wasn't, no. I had talked to several Druids and Community Leaders concerning my re-write that I worked on - for community feedback, balances and possible RP/Conflict ideas, and there was either no mention, no talks of this at all or I was ghosted - I did, however, know about the existence of this from a mutual party, but I wasn't allowed to see or was just completely left in the dark concerning all this.

 

I would've loved to know more about this, since there could've been interesting segments or interactions with one another - but alas, this is not that blessed timeline.

 

I'll be reading and giving this a look based off balance in the near future.

I've reached out on discord to discuss the matter. Obv you already know this but, just for anyone curious if I would be down for interactions- I am, just hadn't occurred to me at the time of writing since my intention was that these exist alongside, not replace the nephilim in any fashion.

 

1 hour ago, Kujo said:

this looks like it could better serve as a druidism amendment/submagic/thingy. Theres the power creep with being able to dodge the normal druid disconnect, going thru singing trees without learning the feat, the mobile fae ring, and the dragon pets; and this is only what i can still recall. i also think being able to bang a leaf lizard and birth a half dragon hybrid kid should be removed

The disconnection dodge and singing tree points are quite fair, though I'll point out that beacons don't share any functions with fae rings beyond their potential use in Darasvira revival. I can consider full infertility, I just thought it would be an interesting and sensible way to hammer in the 'half-dragon' idea by not giving them the same detriment characteristic of fully fledged dragons, and the kids are just basically a naz cursed children / voidal tear corrupted children equivalent kind of shtick, just a bit of flavor that I felt was harmless.

 

1 hour ago, SoulReapingWolf said:

Okay, I've taken my time to read through all of it and I feel like this lore piece is pretty complete. The abilities are detailed. 

I have two main questions I got while reading the lore. The first being how much Draan does a Darasvira have and if there is no specific Tier Progression are the abilities they have learned as soon as they go through their first rebirth? Or must they be taught by an older more experienced Darasvira?

Additionally, if a Darasvira becomes a druid or posses any other kind of compatible magics do they have 2 'mana pools' one for their Darasvira abilities and one for their druidic or other magic ones or are they shared somehow?

Already responded to these in DMs but in case anyone else is curious,

 

Indeed they have a 10 point scale for draan.

 

I'd say yes they would function off of two different 'pools' of energy, one for their inherent abilities, and one for other magics. That said, casting one or the other will still physically exhaust them, which is still going to have some negative impact on casting the other. Interesting question though, I'm open to changing my opinion on that- kind of a hard one to solve.

 

47 minutes ago, The Media Wizard said:

 

I think there is a big difference there. A new magic that can affect another group is different to making a similar-looking and acting race to one that is already exists. If someone wanted to make a new race of catfolk, they should speak with the Kha lorekeepers. I do not think that is a lot to ask or expect.

Yeah this was an oversight I suppose. Frankly I wouldn't have expected any such collaboration to be well-received or welcome on the other end, but it would have been the better move to run this stuff by the nephilim community regardless. As mentioned, I've discussed it with spoon now.

 

That said, I don't consider this lore to be all that similar to theirs. The dragon aesthetic is shared, yes, and certain features such as hoarding and whatnot carry over, but I was very deliberate in making sure that this lore fills a completely different niche, and that what things are similar are altered significantly- they hoard people and knowledge, with the collection of things just being an optional hobby, as an example.

[Kalehart 1062]

32 minutes ago, Amayonnaise said:

 

Big concern here.
So the Darasvira don't need to be a druid to be connected, but only other Darasvira can unnattune those who are Druids?
That makes no sense and causes a lot of issues and internal conflict when it comes to Druids causing issues with circles / other Druids. Their fellow dragon-kin are the only ones capable of unattuning them, but if the only ones capable of unattunement are all in a separate circle, why would they unattune one of their own?

^ Just a theoretical situation, but definitely a big concern. I don't think a CA should be required to unattune a Druid, when they don't have to be a Druid to become a CA in the first place.
 

 

So only those that have been taught to connect may do so, as I have read. This is already going to cause issues with elitism / circle jerking, another large concern.

While this CA definitely shouldn't become bloated and handed out willy-nilly, TA's are already hoarded and rarely taught among most magics. Druidism Attunement itself isn't often taught or handed out to other Druids, unless they're lucky enough to find someone who's willing to spread it (Or at least when I was last a Druid, it was).

If you compare the idea of requiring 3 to connect with the concept of most circles having 3 Archdruids, I can already see lots of issues with a single circle hoarding this CA and only connecting their members to then antagonise other Circles or playerbases.

I'm not sure what the grandfathering is going to look like, and how many you're bringing in, but this lore just doesn't seem to have looked at potential issues with the playerbases and situations that may arise.

Edit-

I do want to say, I love the idea of adding a CA to Druidism that actually gives it a purpose.

For a very long time, I've been of the mindset that Druidism only still exists due to its large and active playerbase. The magic itself is only really used for aesthetics or the occasional world event, and no magic should continue to exist if it has to rely on world events for usage, in my personal opinion.

Druidism has long been without any real purpose. Yes, their purpose is to preserve balance and such, but Druidism itself lacks a real, active opponents. Azdrazi have Paladins to wage war against and vice versa, and Druidism is supposed to be antagonised by the Void, but nothing the Void does can actually be opposed by Druidism.

Blight healing is the main thing I can think of where Druidism has a real, active purpose, but even then very rarely do you see blight that needs tending to.

So, I do like the idea of Druidism gaining something that gives them purpose to go out and do stuff, so I'm not trying to be rude and harsh. Just pointing out the implementation issues I can see.

The note on disconnection is a fair concern, one I've debated myself. Ultimately after checking with a number of leaders in the druid community, they seemed to align with it being acceptable, so I kept it in. I'm not adverse to removing it if need be, but the purpose for it existing is that these creatures are intended rather specifically to cause conflict with druii- which means it would be rather likely, at least in theory, that they would run a high risk of just getting shot for performing this purpose.

 

I tried to counter balance that by making their own unattunement rather severe (permanent druidic lockout and reversion to soul-scarred mortal), and I could perhaps also add in that they are incapable of learning normal unattunement themselves as well. I probably will actually. As for Darasvira moderating themselves with unattunement, the idea was that they should be quite severe in their stance on how they do things, and be pretty merciless to those who fail in that task. But, you're right, it could be an issue.

 

As for the second point, the grandfathering issue is one that's troubled me as well. Ultimately the numbers needed to connect and disconnect are just digits that are easily changed, and may need to be. I don't want this CA to become locked down to a single community, and perhaps the internal disconnection should be made more accessible if it ends up staying- something I'll give some thought.

 

Lastly, I appreciate that! All criticism is welcome, and I really value the input.

 

sorry for the double-post, missed this while writing the last one.

[ronin_champloo 5951]

Spoiler

To preface this, this is my own concerns and thoughts about this - rather than an official ST feedback.

 

 

Hey, I've given this a read and here are the concerns and balancing issues that I've garnered from this - being the current writer of the Nephilim lore who've been given the changelog for our own CA. I hope this'll help and smooth out any details that are problems. Keep in mind that I'm rather sleep deprived, so some of this may be false. I'll edit whatever is.

 

Firstly, Lore Issues. I've spoken to ST about this, since I was curious and heard differing things - but I've no idea how the Aspects would approve and Dragon-Altering Soul since Dragons and Fae don't really mix as far as I know. What Taynei is doing is that she is trying to do a thing that only the Arch-Drakaar could do while barely being a Dragaar in power and more closer to a Dragon. Perhaps a more different aesthetic or lore-origin would help, but this is what I've been told from a suitable source.

 

Firstly, from the changelog and concerns that I've been given by the ST for the Nephilim is that they're Orc Strength, I tried to amend this by placing a lot of limits and the breaking of a Polymorph should a Nephilim draw upon their own power. With the general server-population already PGing how much they can lift, how strong they are - I feel as if the 20% boost in power could be better clarified due to this, but I can understand why the 'strength' boost is hard to clarify since I've had problems in my own write-up due to this. I'd recommend adding things that limit it, etc - rather than what you've done as my own opinion.

 

The scales being as durable as treated-leather can be somewhat iffy or abuseable, but I'm glad to see the redlines about it. Personally, I'm of the opinion that they're aesthetic - as is the standard for Nephilim - as they can be placed around the body, I feel as if players will minmax it to make sure they have the 'most' protection that they could. The same issues can be placed for the Bull-Horns, Canine Teeth and Small Talons - adding these on, I feel as if people will abuse it so I'd prefer if it was just aesthetics rather than anything else. Hopefully, the ST will be able to regulate and make sure no problems pop up.

 

The thing about the Darasvira where they can't make children with one another is based, the idea of longing for a family - and being cursed with the inability of making children could be a interesting curse or RP development that could make RP. And so, they'll be more of a cruel reflection to Taynei. However, the whole creation of children with a descendant messes with that process - personally, I've bad thoughts about it due to the state of Cursed Children but it's your call at the end of the day. How about, children of Daravira have adverse mental effects rather than both mental and physical features?

 

The weakness to Xannic Magic needs more clarification in my opinion - what does 'and attacks affecting them as severely as fully-fledged dragonkin.' mean, since it can be taken in different ways. I'd suggest putting in whatever it does, etc. The Thanhium Weakness should be more severe in my opinion based off how unironically powerful it is. 

I'd be very careful about sensing discomfort near Voidal Magic and Voidal Tears - I feel as if people'll use this to metagame. Personally, I'd make the range far more shorter and the discomfort of Voidal Magic being changed to active Voidal Magic.

 

Additionally, from a balancing perspective, I don't think Darasvira should be able to learn magic, etc - Druidism, Chi, Housemagery, Kani - just for balancing purposes, furthermore Kani is unable to be used by draconic beings. I don't know, I feel as if the CA should be disallowed from learning any magics in general,  and have a much more weaker variant. The idea of Druidism, which is arguably a really powerful magic, being able to be learnt by these guys give me really bad minmaxing thoughts.

 

Lesser Dragonkin - as they've done to Nephilim - are adversed, rather than companions. The additional thing to the Pygmy Dragons can be rather troublesome, I suggest making it so that Dragonkin are indifferent to the Darasvira rather than friendly(?) to have continuity between the Nephilim and Darasvira.

 

The idea that the Darasvira instinctively get the Singing Trees FA regardless if they have it or not to be rather troublematic, perhaps a weaker variant of it rather than being unable to store info within - as in like, they've problems reading the message and can only see segments of it; be it the emotion, partial words, etc. They'd have to go to an actual FA holder to get the full message rather than being able to rely on themselves for everything.

 

The Druidic Affinity - while it makes sense IRP - would be iffy in terms of balance. Being able to be boosted up to T5 immediately is troublesome and disregards anyone's own growth to it. I'm not sure on how long it is, I'm guessing 4 months at most. And being able to skip all of that due to being a CA is iffy in my opinion. You could rework this into some different effects instead.

 

The idea of Darasvira being immune to basic disconnection from Mortal Druii is iffy to me, I feel as if it's a protection based off an already powerful CA. I'd remove it personally.

 

That's just my thoughts, I'm taking a break from reading this and I'll continue later.

 

EDIT - 24/06/2021, 9:17 GMT: Amayo is unable to read it, so I changed the font and colour.

EDIT - 24/06/2021, 9:24 GMT: Added a possible suggestion to the children of Daravira.

[SoulReapingWolf 2258]

32 minutes ago, Amayonnaise said:

This confuses me, because isn't their main design supposed to be compatibility with Druidism?

Indeed it is but thats why this portion of what Keefy mentioned is crucial.

2 hours ago, Keefy said:

One is she doesn't like the way the druids act to one another or do their job. During the entire eventline earlier this year, she saw bickering, in fighting, threats. This isn't what she was taught they should be.

She being Taynei’hiylu (their creator) I believe now more than ever Taynei would have a different perspective of how druidism should be practiced. The Darasvira would most likely share this perspective with Darasvira. So while yeah the Druids and the Darasvira share common goals in the way they care primarily for nature and the Aspects balance they might come to clash heads over the methods used to do this.

A druid might be a bit more bureocratic in their approach than a Darasvira or a Darasvira might ignore an experienced druid's advise on a situation believing himself to be superior and more capable than the druid because of their connection with Taynei.

 

[Kalehart 1062]

1 hour ago, Kneeil said:

  Reveal hidden contents

To preface this, this is my own concerns and thoughts about this - rather than an official ST feedback.

 

 

Hey, I've given this a read and here are the concerns and balancing issues that I've garnered from this - being the current writer of the Nephilim lore who've been given the changelog for our own CA. I hope this'll help and smooth out any details that are problems.

 

Firstly, Lore Issues. I've spoken to ST about this, since I was curious and heard differing things - but I've no idea how the Aspects would approve and Dragon-Altering Soul since Dragons and Fae don't really mix as far as I know. What Taynei is doing is that she is trying to do a thing that only the Arch-Drakaar could do while barely being a Dragaar in power and more closer to a Dragon. Perhaps a more different aesthetic or lore-origin would help, but this is what I've been told from a suitable source.

 

Firstly, from the changelog and concerns that I've been given by the ST for the Nephilim is that they're Orc Strength, I tried to amend this by placing a lot of limits and the breaking of a Polymorph should a Nephilim draw upon their own power. With the general server-population already PGing how much they can lift, how strong they are - I feel as if the 20% boost in power could be better clarified due to this, but I can understand why the 'strength' boost is hard to clarify since I've had problems in my own write-up due to this. I'd recommend adding things that limit it, etc - rather than what you've done as my own opinion.

 

The scales being as durable as treated-leather can be somewhat iffy or abuseable, but I'm glad to see the redlines about it. Personally, I'm of the opinion that they're aesthetic - as is the standard for Nephilim - as they can be placed around the body, I feel as if players will minmax it to make sure they have the 'most' protection that they could. The same issues can be placed for the Bull-Horns, Canine Teeth and Small Talons - adding these on, I feel as if people will abuse it so I'd prefer if it was just aesthetics rather than anything else. Hopefully, you'll be able to make your

 

The thing about the Darasvira where they can't make children with one another is based, the idea of longing for a family - and being cursed with the inability of making children could be a interesting curse or RP development that could make RP. And so, they'll be more of a cruel reflection to Taynei. However, the whole creation of children with a descendant messes with that process - personally, I've bad thoughts about it due to the state of Cursed Children but it's your call at the end of the day.

 

The weakness to Xannic Magic needs more clarification in my opinion - what does 'and attacks affecting them as severely as fully-fledged dragonkin.' mean, since it can be taken in different ways. I'd suggest putting in whatever it does, etc. The Thanhium Weakness should be more severe in my opinion based off how unironically powerful it is. 

I'd be very careful about sensing discomfort near Voidal Magic and Voidal Tears - I feel as if people'll use this to metagame. Personally, I'd make the range far more shorter and the discomfort of Voidal Magic being changed to active Voidal Magic.

 

Additionally, from a balancing perspective, I don't think Darasvira should be able to learn magic, etc - Druidism, Chi, Housemagery, Kani - just for balancing purposes, furthermore Kani is unable to be used by draconic beings. I don't know, I feel as if the CA should be disallowed from learning any magics in general,  and have a much more weaker variant. The idea of Druidism, which is arguably a really powerful magic, being able to be learnt by these guys give me really bad minmaxing thoughts.

 

Lesser Dragonkin - as they've done to Nephilim - are adversed, rather than companions. The additional thing to the Pygmy Dragons can be rather troublesome, I suggest making it so that Dragonkin are indifferent to the Darasvira rather than friendly(?) to have continuity between the Nephilim and Darasvira.

 

The idea that the Darasvira instinctively get the Singing Trees FA regardless if they have it or not to be rather troublematic, perhaps a weaker variant of it rather than being unable to store info within - as in like, they've problems reading the message and can only see segments of it; be it the emotion, partial words, etc. They'd have to go to an actual FA holder to get the full message rather than being able to rely on themselves for everything.

 

The Druidic Affinity - while it makes sense IRP - would be iffy in terms of balance. Being able to be boosted up to T5 immediately is troublesome and disregards anyone's own growth to it. I'm not sure on how long it is, I'm guessing 4 months at most. And being able to skip all of that due to being a CA is iffy in my opinion. You could rework this into some different effects instead.

 

The idea of Darasvira being immune to basic disconnection from Mortal Druii is iffy to me, I feel as if it's a protection based off an already powerful CA. I'd remove it personally.

 

That's just my thoughts, I'm taking a break from reading this and I'll continue later.

Appreciate the feedback fam, let's try to break this down, I'll just respond in order.

 

That first point on the aspects is one I've heard of too and, frankly, don't have a real counter for. I was aware that this lore may be conceptually problematic when I started, and I'm willing to accept if it simply isn't feasible by that standard. All I can really say is that neither Timber nor Keefy, nor any of the druids I spoke to, had this interpretation. Granted, they are not the final authority on the matter.

 

This said, I did attempt to account for Taynei's limited power both in the nature of Darasvira being only demi-draconic, unable even to use dragonfire, and that her method for doing so relies more heavily on leeching off of the descendant than on her having the raw power to cause them to transform. Ultimately, large-scale soul-based and physical change isn't particularly uncommon (see, a number of other CAs) and I had hoped that my measures would be sufficient to justify it.

 

The strength issue is one thing that I had puzzled over a lot, and went through several different iterations of. I opted for percentage as I'd heard that it was done in other lore, but you're right, it may be wiser to specify just a peak weight that Darasvira based on each race could be capable of lifting, to be more definitive on the matter.

 

I did give some thought to the horns, talons, etc as well, and ultimately came to the conclusion myself that these are relatively minor features that are an acceptable advantage for a CA that has no real offensive abilities built in otherwise. I should maybe add a passive ability to better flesh them out though, as I suppose they could be misused in some ways. As for the scales, even if minmaxed with placement, they won't via the redlines permit any real meaningful resistance anyway- they basically cannot help against direct hits at all. Perhaps I can redline them more heavily though, or yeah, just remove the leather-equivalent statement.

 

I tried my best to counter possible cursed (lol) interpretations of the children aspect via the moderation guideline that all of them must first be approved by the ST before being played. This, to avoid any unwelcome approaches to the effect. Thematically, as I said in reply to kujo, I included this to further drive the point home that they are not fully draconic, and thus do not suffer all of the same afflictions a true dragonkin may- infertility being one of the most noteworthy. I suppose I could remove the physical traits, but, in my opinion these are harmless enough as flavor and aesthetic, with proper oversight.

 

The Xannic magic thing should probably be adjusted I agree, frankly I was just uncertain how to quantify it, and I think(?) their lore itself specifies that it does extra damage to dragonkin in one form or another, so I was essentially just stating that they were subject to the full effects of that. This said, yeah, I should likely flesh this out more myself. I'll need to do more research on thanhium lore and see about that too.

 

Voidal magic bit is a mistake in my wording, I did only intend that to matter for active voidal magic or things like atronachs. I'll redline that properly to avoid potential meta, good catch.

 

As for learning magics, I'm gonna be honest, this I just don't especially agree with. I have deliberately given this CA almost no combative abilities (has a mark that sucks for void mages, a summoned weapon, and a healing spell mostly) in order to account for them being able to learn other things. Their only real combative buffs are the horns, claws, teeth and (what is intended to be) only mildly bolstered strength. I don't really view this CA as being all that powerful but, perhaps I'm blind from exposure.

 

For dragonkin, I actually did more or less what you suggest here. I deliberately outline that they are indifferent, not friendly, to Darasvira- they will attack them if they have reason to, but simply not by default. Pygmy dragons can only be considered friendly if raised from an egg, because they imprint onto the Darasvira as their 'Queen' given their tendency to live in hives of that sort. I'd argue Nephilim should be able to do the same, and wouldn't mind seeing the effect replicated. They're just flavor pets, so, I don't think there should be much issue.

 

Singing tree feature could stand to be adjusted, this was something done to mimic a piece of how Taynei info I was given. Honestly, I'd be fine just axing this ability entirely if the team wishes it.

 

The druidic affinity is something I extensively discussed and checked with niv, delmo, keefy, timber and a few others, as I myself was slightly uncertain. To be clear, it is not a boost to progression in the entire communion magic but rather a boost to three spells within it, one of which happens to called communion. This was done exclusively to be consistent with their inherent Lesser Communion ability, as the way it is outlined left them in a very strange in-between space where it didn't make sense for them to be at the lower tiers. I also couldn't feasibly gimp it without making it useless to non-druidic Darasvira.

 

The disconnection thing, as mentioned to amayo, definitely warrants some consideration- which I will give it.

 

Thank you for the constructive and politely delivered criticism!

 

1 hour ago, Amayonnaise said:

This confuses me, because isn't their main design supposed to be compatibility with Druidism?

Already talked this out in PMs but, for others who wish to know, @SoulReapingWolfpretty much got it.

 

The main idea of the conflict between Darasvira an other druids is that they both disregard druidic authority, and have minimal consideration for the political interests of circles- meaning they could, and likely would, take actions that will harm circles in favor of prioritizing the balance over everything else.

 

Darasvira would readily insult, disregard and disrespect any Archdruid, and often be quite willing to sabotage a druidic circle if it means doing something beneficial for nature. They are antagonistic, even if they share a purpose with mortal druii. It's kind of akin to how the police might conflict with vigilanties, in a sense.

[DistantCryprid 265]

i like the lore, beautiful writing and overall nice concept! The dragon's a teenager with a superiority complex, of course she's gonna do that because she can.

+1 from me chief.

[Archipelego 2094]

yeah

[rukio 8910]

I'm just biased and hate dragons, bro.

[Twinny 1618]

bruh?

[Gladuos 857]

I haven't read this, but my inner extremist druid screams at the prospect of dragons corrupting my good wholesome nature's balance . . . (Aka dragons not technically being a part of the Aspects' 'nature' originally)

And my OOC self screams because dragons literally leak into everything in LotC lore, nothing is without dragoon, and the lack of variety hurts my soul

Though this looks like a lot of effort was put in, I respect it

[Sorcerio 4595]

Not particularly a fan (mostly because I hate horn people RP), though I still think it's interesting. I'll give more thorough feedback come voting time. I do like the formatting though!

[Tiresiam 462]

9 hours ago, SquakHawk said:

 

bro if azdrazi is striga and siliti is this it aint lookin good for drazi 

 

p.s. havent read the piece dont want to its too long and has too many spoilers

 

That was the joke

[Luciloo 2649]

6 hours ago, Kalehart said:

I tried my best to counter possible cursed (lol) interpretations of the children

[Archipelego 2094]

7 hours ago, Kalehart said:

The main idea of the conflict between Darasvira an other druids is that they both disregard druidic authority, and have minimal consideration for the political interests of circles- meaning they could, and likely would, take actions that will harm circles in favor of prioritizing the balance over everything else.

 

Darasvira would readily insult, disregard and disrespect any Archdruid, and often be quite willing to sabotage a druidic circle if it means doing something beneficial for nature. They are antagonistic, even if they share a purpose with mortal druii. It's kind of akin to how the police might conflict with vigilanties, in a sense.

cool and all, but rp drive is no excuse for avoiding consequences.

 

and, unless i missed it somewhere, attuned darasvira can still unattune mortal druids.

 

so you should see the issue there, where you're essentially creating an elite group of druids that cannot be influenced by the establishment. no matter the lore sense, that spells trouble.

 

and it's not like getting unattuned stops them from being darasvira. like the lore reads, attunement is separate and optional. so it should be entirely within the realm of plausibility to have normal unattunement, or to even have the two groups unable to unattune one another.

 

either way you do it, having equal grounds for that is incredibly important. ive seen my fair share of disconnection wars and conflict, and by giving darasvira invulnerability to any sort of risk or conflict with OTHER DRUIDS, i see that spiralling into issues none of us want.

 

overall, though, i like the lore. this is just one major judgement call i would recommend making.

 

sorry for not seeing this in dms earlier, i must have looked right past it when you asked for my thoughts

 

cheers