ST Nodes

[AmericanSimp 510]

ST Nodes... the source of wealth and prosperity for many players on this server, or so we thought!

In reality, for every node, there is exactly one person that truly gets to farm the material. What? How is that possible? The CD Time isn't visible to players right? Well, your actually right, the cooldown time isn't visible to any player on the server. But, if you do any reading on the forums, you know that when a node is farmed, there is a 1 week cooldown placed down on the node from the time of farming. If you take a moment to think on that, you realize that means the person who farmed the material, knows exactly when they need to come back in order to farm the node again without worry of missing out. 

Why is this a problem? Can't someone just camp the node, and hope that they manage to be the one to farm it? Well, how would you like to travel thousands of blocks everyday to a point in the middle of no where, and sit in front of a rock doing absolutely nothing for upwards of a week, 24 hours a day? Absolutely no one can or should have to do that, and the odds that you end up being there at the moment of the reset are basically 0. 

 

Back on Arcas, the nodes often had the cooldown time posted. Which meant everyone who came across the node, knew when that bad boy would be resetting. I have no clue as to why the cooldowns were removed, but removing the cooldowns not only promotes the hording of a node to a single player. But it also removes the chance for a roleplay encounter to occur when farming the material. Well, if people have to start fighting over a node, everyone is going to bring massive rallies! You are absolutely right, but how many people, do you think would rally every week to go farm a node that only one person benefits from? Truly, that cannot last forever, and if it did, you'll likely end up seeing the solo's start to band together. 

I'm basically just asking for staff to reimplement adding the cooldown timers to nodes. There is absolutely no reason I can think of as to why they shouldn't be there or available to players when they /sreq the node. 

What are your thoughts? 

[ronin_champloo 5951]

Not trying to downplay or put down your argument, but there's just a misconception - even in Arcas, CD time was never on the sign. It either said 'OFF CD' or 'ON CD', and you'd /sreq to interact with it if it was 'OFF CD'. And speaking from experience, there has been weekly groups of nations fighting over nodes - or even bringing rallies up to 10 people for them; something that'll arise more should the time for these nodes be shown.

 

Etc, [!] The bell rings, signaling for a Node Expedition. (Meet at Square)

 

And suddenly, you've gigantic nations rallying and hoarding nodes. Maybe even turning an ST Event into just a PVP fest. Most times, they'll sit on them rather than do anything with them which is just as bad as only one person using it.

 

Personally, I'm of the mind that there should be some aid granted to the players, either by way of a time-frame or day on the CD, but that also becomes a problem - since I've seen players camp nodes for at least 5 hours and it favors those who spend 24/7 on the server, something that I was guilty of in Arcas to be frank.

 

It's a hard system to balance since either option will tip the Node-Wars in their favour. I'd like to see other people's suggestions though, if possible. Perhaps, with community input - a more lax and enjoyable solution can be figured out.

 

Just my thoughts.

[AmericanSimp 510]

23 minutes ago, Undubitably said:

And speaking from experience, there has been weekly groups of nations fighting over nodes - or even bringing rallies up to 10 people for them; something that'll arise more should the time for these nodes be shown.

 

And suddenly, you've gigantic nations rallying and hoarding nodes. Maybe even turning an ST Event into just a PVP fest. Most times, they'll sit on them rather than do anything with them which is just as bad as only one person using it. 

 

Personally, I'm of the mind that there should be some aid granted to the players, either by way of a time-frame or day on the CD, but that also becomes a problem - since I've seen players camp nodes for at least 5 hours and it favors those who spend 24/7 on the server, something that I was guilty of in Arcas to be frank.

To start, I probably was wrong in regards to not knowing that CD times weren't shown last map. 

When I read your reply, a lot of the issues you brought up are really real valid, but my problem lies in the fact that. More people literally can't get involved with the nodes. When the time is hidden, and a player doesn't have access to the ooc knowledge that no one is supposed to have, we run into the problem of an unattainable material being horded and monopolies forming. 

Now, I am always a stickler for not complaining a solution. And I quite literally did so like a dummy. 

What are your thoughts on a a cooldown that is random? Once the node is farmed, the ST doing the event simply rolls in a manner that the players can't see. Whether it be a /roll 7 or a /roll 14, whatever the number given is the number of days til the node resets. Obviously 14 days is rather long, so maybe 10 days, and to prevent the chance of an over abundance have a minimum require time of 3-4 days. (If you roll 1-2, it means a 3-4 day CD). A second roll can also be done out of 24, to determine the hour in which the node will be reset on the given day. 

Not only does this remove the issue of people using OOC information to their own benefit, it allows for that one random player who stumbled upon the node to get lucky. Making the hour of the day, and the day itself unknown allows for a very balanced option. And if a rally does happen to show up, right at the time of the reset or within an hour. You could potentially even find a leaker, I AM NOT SAYING THERE IS ONE, but if that problem were to occur its easily regulated. 

[Sham404 464]

Why not make cooldowns random? Then the person that mined it doesnt know exactly when its available and it gives a better chance to players that randomly encounter the node/check on it regularly

[ronin_champloo 5951]

1 hour ago, AmericanSimp said:

What are your thoughts on a a cooldown that is random? Once the node is farmed, the ST doing the event simply rolls in a manner that the players can't see. Whether it be a /roll 7 or a /roll 14, whatever the number given is the number of days til the node resets. Obviously 14 days is rather long, so maybe 10 days, and to prevent the chance of an over abundance have a minimum require time of 3-4 days. (If you roll 1-2, it means a 3-4 day CD). A second roll can also be done out of 24, to determine the hour in which the node will be reset on the given day. 

 

Personally, while it'd seem like a good idea on paper. I don't think it'll translate well when implemented as some players have waited hours for nodes, when it's random - sure some might accidentally stumble on it, most of the time; it'll just be people camping it for longer. This'll either be done by alts, or alternative personas logged out on that spot - only to log on hourly to check. If it's 'OFF CD', then they'll send a bird.

 

I find that having a random CD only increases the problem that you described with not having CDs on Signs, since it'll either have two effects. Either the dedicated people who've come to monopolize it will dedicate themselves harder, making it harder for normal players. Or the people, who're already disadvantaged due to IRL obligations, will be disadvantaged further.

 

It's rather difficult finding a solution that both respects the playerbase and their time on the server. Nonetheless, it's a good suggestion but I don't think it'll translate well on LOTC.

 

EDIT:

I've actually had ET experiment with making Nodes more accessible. Those who've experienced a Battle-Node may grant some light on this. Basically, it's a system where it's an Event - particularly by some mutated beast, or something guarding a node. Succeed and you're able to mine it. It's been regarded favorably by those who've tried it since it's a guaranteed material that you've to earn via CRP or preparation, and it could be something to steer things in the right direction.

[AmericanSimp 510]

59 minutes ago, Undubitably said:

 

Personally, while it'd seem like a good idea on paper. I don't think it'll translate well when implemented as some players have waited hours for nodes, when it's random - sure some might accidentally stumble on it, most of the time; it'll just be people camping it for longer. This'll either be done by alts, or alternative personas logged out on that spot - only to log on hourly to check. If it's 'OFF CD', then they'll send a bird.

 

I find that having a random CD only increases the problem that you described with not having CDs on Signs, since it'll either have two effects. Either the dedicated people who've come to monopolize it will dedicate themselves harder, making it harder for normal players. Or the people, who're already disadvantaged due to IRL obligations, will be disadvantaged further.

 

It's rather difficult finding a solution that both respects the playerbase and their time on the server. Nonetheless, it's a good suggestion but I don't think it'll translate well on LOTC.

 

EDIT:

I've actually had ET experiment with making Nodes more accessible. Those who've experienced a Battle-Node may grant some light on this. Basically, it's a system where it's an Event - particularly by some mutated beast, or something guarding a node. Succeed and you're able to mine it. It's been regarded favorably by those who've tried it since it's a guaranteed material that you've to earn via CRP or preparation, and it could be something to steer things in the right direction.

I am all for having nodes that require a CRP fight/preparation! But before addressing that, I want to address your statement. When it comes to not having the CD times posted, that is the most detrimental to the players who cannot log on everyday. Solely because they cannot ever be given the chance to find a node to interact with, due to them always being locked down to a certain groups OOC knowledge and preset time. 

If someone were to camp a node, 24 hours a day, for upwards of 10 days, they without a doubt deserve that single chunk of lunarite, azhl, or boomsteel. But imo, that's impossible to maintain, and will eventually burn the player out. The reason I am in favor of the randomness is because it rewards those who are willing to dedicate time to afk, while also allowing more people to get involved with the nodes if they are lucky or put in the time to wait. 
                 If someone does not OOCly know the reset time, currently, there is absolutely no way of them to be able to interact with the node which is unfair to literally 97% of the server. Having people afk is obviously not fun, but its also still fair game once the node is unset. And theres no limit to the amount of people afking, and would likely lead to conflict before a node even resets. 

But now we have your ET Experiment......
I feel like, if you pair the random cooldowns with the event-like nature of mining the node in those experiments, that will bolster a very large backing. If the cooldown is short, making the fight harder. If it was a longer cooldown, make the fight easier. I absolutely love the idea of having the event, but at the same time, if its still only accessible to the first ones to interact that gives the same issue. When you conducted the experiements, was there a cooldown? Or could you interact whenever for the chance of getting a chunk? If there is a cooldown, what are your thoughts on limiting the cooldown only to those that interacted? (Say 10 people interacted, simply place their name into a ST ledger with the time they can interact again next to their igns) 

I will never back down from the idea that keeping the cooldown set to one week, and hidden is unfair. By nature, it brings OOC into RP which is absolutely awful IMO. If the people mining the node did not know when that week ended, it'd be more than fair. But in the current climate, a very large majority of players are unable to partake in the acquisition of ET materials outside of spending mina they don't have. By nature, not a single new player joining the server is even capable of partaking so long as the cooldown is known only to a few oocly. Having random cooldowns, atleast opens the door to allow everyone a fair chance at acquiring the material. Should a massive pvp interaction go down, that's a problem with LoTC's way of combating large RP iterations. LoTC's rules that disturb RP shouldn't be the grounds to OOCly ruin a players ability to interact. 

**My solution to combating those AFKing, is to make the nodes an active eventsite, if an ET were to catch someone AFKing nearby. They are allowed to do with them as they wish. If a player is truly afk, they'd be sent to the lobby within 15 minutes. If the player hasn't replied to the emote in that time and is still on the main, they are obviously still present and ignoring the emote. Which is against the rules to do (AFKing to avoid conflict/an interaction).** 




Edit: I'd also like to note, on Arcas, I was one of the biggest hoarders of boomsteel. I alone managed to accrue over 20+ chunks from Dingo's NPC mine (I love NPC Mines, should bring them back). As much as I like to believe those hoarding these resources actually use it, in the end I know from experience many just get thrown into a echest unattainable to anyone unless you pay an absurd amount. By the end of the map I still had around 12 chunks, and due to confusing rules I wasn't even able to transfer the items over. Hoarding has its pros, especially to the one with the items, but it also limits the ability for that item to be roleplayed MASSIVELY. For a solid month or two, I was the only provider of boomsteel weapons, items, and rp once Oren blew up the mine. OOCly I chose not to share much of it. Took a map change for me to realize that, hoarding is the downfall of RP. If ST nodes are farmed, and the item isn't RP'd. That takes a huge portion of the servers potential to RP away. Especially with items such as boomsteel, considering the items and events that can be created from them. I.E. An orc suicide bombing the dwarven throne room with over 30 people present. These materials are meant to be rare, but they aren't meant to be unattainable and unseen. 

[DISCOLIQUID 1962]

Maybe we simply need more events with collectable nodes, and not nodes that are always accessible. I can see about talking to other ST who might want to run events that feature valuable materials, instead of forcing this weird level of IC/OOC exploration that not everyone likes. I don';t know if there's an issue with the current system (there probably is) but I just think ST could offer up some boomsteel or thanhium in rewards instead of, er... i dunno bones?

[King_Kunuk 888]

Speaking from what I know icly and oocly, there are a lot of people who is an alt persona to AFK check node sights and it makes me a bit... frustrated that ST allow people to get away with that to an extent.

[AmericanSimp 510]

3 hours ago, DISCOLIQUID said:

Maybe we simply need more events with collectable nodes, and not nodes that are always accessible. I can see about talking to other ST who might want to run events that feature valuable materials, instead of forcing this weird level of IC/OOC exploration that not everyone likes. I don';t know if there's an issue with the current system (there probably is) but I just think ST could offer up some boomsteel or thanhium in rewards instead of, er... i dunno bones?

I honestly like that idea quite a lot. Not only that it gives a ton of RP, but also offers the ability for the resources to get spread out diversely while being easily regulated by ST/LT. (Say you want to give out 15 chunks a month, you just have the pool sitting there and ET/ST can pull from it for events until its empty)

[Orlanth 3536]

As someone who recently got back into actually trying to find nodes and collect them. The current system is set up in a way that encourages "exploits." (No, these exploits are not against the rules.) I won't go into full detail as to how but myself and a couple friends have not only been able to find nodes incredibly easily but even sometimes pinpoint cool downs to the specific day they come off. Now, speaking as someone who directly benefits from it, it's stupid. The effort we put in to figure these things out is stupid and the fact that we get an advantage from it is stupid. 

The current solution to this is a restriction on how many nodes can be collected by an individual every X days. Personally I think the current set up where it's based on when the last node you collected comes off cool down is somewhat silly as it primarily encourages one person re-harvesting the same node. I think a flat timer of 1 node per week would be better.

As far as other suggestions go, here's my thoughts:

Rewards for other events: This is a good idea in theory but what I ultimately see it doing is over-inflating the amount of materials on the server as well as it being used as rewards for specific groups. It's no secret that many player bases get far more events than others.

Publicized cool downs: This adds narrative and conflict over nodes and I like it quite a bit. The issue becomes it's harder for individuals to get node materials as large nations/groups fight over control. I do also understand the complaint that this leads to excessive PVP at nodes, although I don't inherently agree that it's too big an issue. 

Battle Nodes: I think battle nodes are a good concept but it seems that it's just a mining node with better drop rates and extra steps. While it's much more fun RP it just doesn't solve the accessibility issue.

As a final note, I'd like to add that these materials are meant to be rare and I feel that the current disparity of the ores is around the level it should be at if everyone has access to a material it is no longer special. Should everyone have the ability to get a rare weapon? Absolutely. But it should be hard to do. The problem is the current idea of "hard" is finding out when a node is off cool down and "sniping" it. In reality, it's not hard, it's just annoying and tedious. The solution is something that is hard to get right here as everything comes with pros and cons. Unfortunately I consider this question of what is the best solution not to be one of what is perfect but of what is the most fun with minimal draw backs.  (My personal opinion on this is publicized CDs on battle nodes). But, it seems that it's a very opinionated subject that ultimately falls on the heads of ST. (Who for the most part I trust to make a good decision).

Thanks for coming to my ted talk

TLDR: System is broke but the solutions are broke as well. Guess we just got to find the least of the evils. 

[jdesarno 380]

1 hour ago, Orlanth said:

TLDR: System is broke but the solutions are broke as well. Guess we just got to find the least of the evils

Pay your devs and they'll stay longer than two months Lotc.

[ScreamingDingo 16990]

2 minutes ago, jdesarno said:

Pay your devs and they'll stay longer than two months Lotc.

you got the money for that?

[ibraheemc2000 2574]

I had the same issue with CD to the point it is legitimately pointless to go mine it cuz of the camping.

 Please fix

[squakhawk 7871]

On 7/17/2021 at 3:40 AM, Sham404 said:

Why not make cooldowns random? Then the person that mined it doesnt know exactly when its available and it gives a better chance to players that randomly encounter the node/check on it regularly

 

 

On 7/17/2021 at 3:24 AM, AmericanSimp said:

To start, I probably was wrong in regards to not knowing that CD times weren't shown last map. 

When I read your reply, a lot of the issues you brought up are really real valid, but my problem lies in the fact that. More people literally can't get involved with the nodes. When the time is hidden, and a player doesn't have access to the ooc knowledge that no one is supposed to have, we run into the problem of an unattainable material being horded and monopolies forming. 

Now, I am always a stickler for not complaining a solution. And I quite literally did so like a dummy. 

What are your thoughts on a a cooldown that is random? Once the node is farmed, the ST doing the event simply rolls in a manner that the players can't see. Whether it be a /roll 7 or a /roll 14, whatever the number given is the number of days til the node resets. Obviously 14 days is rather long, so maybe 10 days, and to prevent the chance of an over abundance have a minimum require time of 3-4 days. (If you roll 1-2, it means a 3-4 day CD). A second roll can also be done out of 24, to determine the hour in which the node will be reset on the given day. 

Not only does this remove the issue of people using OOC information to their own benefit, it allows for that one random player who stumbled upon the node to get lucky. Making the hour of the day, and the day itself unknown allows for a very balanced option. And if a rally does happen to show up, right at the time of the reset or within an hour. You could potentially even find a leaker, I AM NOT SAYING THERE IS ONE, but if that problem were to occur its easily regulated. 

 

Cooldowns for a long time have had hidden additional days to vary cooldown tacked on. Very recently have we added greater variance to this. Not only this, but typically nodes are rather unrewarding for people going to solo-harvest- aswell limiting them, as the same individual/group can be on one cd at a time. This allows for greater variance into who collects nodes. The simple issue is that people spend too much time for grab these things, and camping them- no matter the cooldown, the unpredictability, the restrictions, people will always camp. Simply put, it will never change, no matter how we change the system. Which we do, greatly. The greatest bad-faith-manuever we've seen is players breaking nodes others have collected, with knowledge that another will popup somewhere else. Thus, we aren't replacing nodes being destroyed for the time being. Battle Nodes are and have always been a successful system, but no ST has the consistent time or patience to answer to every single-harvester with an entire event, even if small. Not only this, but the greatest detriment is that the player comes back a day later, or comes back with a rally. No consequence but time wasted on the ST's behalf.

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Orlanth said:

As someone who recently got back into actually trying to find nodes and collect them. The current system is set up in a way that encourages "exploits." (No, these exploits are not against the rules.) I won't go into full detail as to how but myself and a couple friends have not only been able to find nodes incredibly easily but even sometimes pinpoint cool downs to the specific day they come off. Now, speaking as someone who directly benefits from it, it's stupid. The effort we put in to figure these things out is stupid and the fact that we get an advantage from it is stupid. 

The current solution to this is a restriction on how many nodes can be collected by an individual every X days. Personally I think the current set up where it's based on when the last node you collected comes off cool down is somewhat silly as it primarily encourages one person re-harvesting the same node. I think a flat timer of 1 node per week would be better.

As far as other suggestions go, here's my thoughts:

Rewards for other events: This is a good idea in theory but what I ultimately see it doing is over-inflating the amount of materials on the server as well as it being used as rewards for specific groups. It's no secret that many player bases get far more events than others.

Publicized cool downs: This adds narrative and conflict over nodes and I like it quite a bit. The issue becomes it's harder for individuals to get node materials as large nations/groups fight over control. I do also understand the complaint that this leads to excessive PVP at nodes, although I don't inherently agree that it's too big an issue. 

Battle Nodes: I think battle nodes are a good concept but it seems that it's just a mining node with better drop rates and extra steps. While it's much more fun RP it just doesn't solve the accessibility issue.

As a final note, I'd like to add that these materials are meant to be rare and I feel that the current disparity of the ores is around the level it should be at if everyone has access to a material it is no longer special. Should everyone have the ability to get a rare weapon? Absolutely. But it should be hard to do. The problem is the current idea of "hard" is finding out when a node is off cool down and "sniping" it. In reality, it's not hard, it's just annoying and tedious. The solution is something that is hard to get right here as everything comes with pros and cons. Unfortunately I consider this question of what is the best solution not to be one of what is perfect but of what is the most fun with minimal draw backs.  (My personal opinion on this is publicized CDs on battle nodes). But, it seems that it's a very opinionated subject that ultimately falls on the heads of ST. (Who for the most part I trust to make a good decision).

Thanks for coming to my ted talk

TLDR: System is broke but the solutions are broke as well. Guess we just got to find the least of the evils. 

 

 

pls dont use wandering souls

 

 

Materials are greenlit for rewards in events, which has been done in the past albeit sparingly- publicized cooldowns are and have been a nightmare despite how entertaining they may be. Battle nodes are Tier 3 nodes, which explain the better droprates- and they're ran on a volunteer basis, and the ST that run them do quite enjoy them- i'd rather than force more on them to spread them thin given how impatient some players may be. 

 

 

 

Your last paragraph is for the most part true, in any case. There isn't an easy or a better way to do this. Not one which works for everyone. Simply put, the best that could be done is that knowing sure, these materials are special, but they're still there if you harvested them or not- which means roleplaying by getting them by trading, fighting, so on. After trying out the mini-system of publicized CDs for Lightstones, while they work, it's simply because paladins aren't going to fight one another personally about it, and they'll just harvest it at the witching hour the day it's off.

 

Your TLDR is for the most part right, and the system we're following. We're working (rather, waiting on techs, for nearly a year now) on having Tier 3 nodes automated, but we've had countless roadblocks put in our way on that technical side. Implementing them would probably diversify a bit the variance of nodes and who's harvesting them, but I'd not add 6+ more nodes on a (statistically more often) shorter cooldown than normal to exhaust the team more than needed. 


While not every st will agree with my opinion, its the simple, frustrating truth. If there are workable suggestions, or suggestions granted, we'll gladly implement them. But in most capacity, the options we have gotten or want are implemented.

 

 

In any case, I'm sorry this isn't the answer you guys probably wanted or expected. If there are any suggestions on this thread (now knowing the policy above), I'd be glad to hear them out- here, pms, forum pms, so on. But really, it is a system I want and have always wanted to improve, I'm just completely stumped on how to do it.