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Harassment, Hate, and Predators


Treshure
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Having had a hand in more than one instance of getting a predator removed, I can safely say that the process is a frustrating one to say the least. In one case, someone who had been banned on multiple roleplaying servers for grooming and having admitted to flying out to another country to have sexual contact with a minor IRL. 5 days later, I get informed that the guy logged onto the server, not having been investigation banned at all. 7 days after I originally sent the report off, Llir came to screenshare me to check the validity of the evidence i had provided. I don't agree entirely with the idea that you should just go off gut feeling to ban someone, but I do believe that when there is sufficient evidence as is (nearly said was there but i realise he's not banned yet) obviously the case in KPs situation, you shouldn't have to wait for additional evidence as that's usually only going to surface as an additional victim. Instantly investigation ban alleged predators, but also allow them to see the evidence brought before them so they can defend themselves. (Unless it is overwhelming evidence and can be verified)

 

There's another thing I'd like to touch on, and that is certain community's attitude towards a situation when it comes to light. On the one hand, you've certain communities who admirably shun predators, people who harass and make racist, sexist, homophobic, etc comments. For one, I think that the way @Bhasedhas dealt with the problematic players in his community is admirrable and deserves commending.

 

Then there's the other end of the spectrum; Oren. I'm not going to bloom it up for anyone but Oren's notoriously had an issue with groomers and nothing being done from the community about them. You've had a remarkably high amount of groomers in Oren's upper leadership (Kralek, orenian prince, Dabliusmaximus, orenian prince, Icarnus, Orenian Emperor, Blancharizard, prominent orenian nobleman, KP, Orenian Emperor), and remarkably little being done about. I often felt like I was more at risk of being banned for sharing the doc with the KP evidence than KP ever was creating those logs. 

 

Let there be no mistake; The old hats and prominent figures of Oren knew full well that KP had been involved in this kind of stuff, and a good chunk of them also knew he was still sexpesting. They still allowed him to be emperor. At no point did they think that it was a good idea to maybe not let the man accused of grooming take an incredibly prominent and powerful position in a nation that attracts a lot of young, impressionable people. They knew this and did not act. Think that the allegations are old and that he surely isn't doing these types of things anymore? 

 

d39bea22667c61b2e3a65f03d88968c6.png

(close up of shared screenshot, of an Orenian former lord exchequer who then became admin)

Image

This clearly shows that Orenian high command knew of Tango and his sexpesting, but did nothing. 

 

Think that the allegations are old and that he surely isn't doing these types of things anymore? I have heard more than one story of KP taking it to sexual tinted roleplay that have occured way past 2017.

5bf7e594a89092cf7f3c606143c6e827.png

He is, since having become emperor, still very much engaging in clearly sexually themed roleplay (cus what's the point of getting a mistress if not for that??) And since he's easily gotten away with it so far, why shouldn't he keep doing so? In this scenario, there was a significant age gap between the two (although they were both adults). I've also heard of KP requesting similar things of people who weren't adults at the time, despite him being quite old for this server (27, I believe).

 

So what worries me, is that very few people in Oren felt the need to do anything about this. Not the people who agreed to have him play heir and eventually become Emperor, not the people who saw the report. What I usually heard was something along the lines of "He wasn't banned, so staff said he did nothing wrong, so i shouldn't do anything." Staff said he did nothing wrong but what do your eyes say when I show you this doc? "Let's wait for staff to do something about it" No. You know this information now that you've been shown, you should be expected to act on it, and not pretend like you don't know once this conversation ends. Another example of this that I can bring up is when Blanchizard finally (well overdue) caught a ban for his grooming of a minor. I went to ask a player who is a prominent figure in Oren and who was quite close with him at the time to remove him from their discord, to which an argument ensued where they essentially defended Blanch. Without boring you with the entire discussion, here's the gist of it.

20abf41bf9516614bbe8a8a723144fec.png

e3811c10eae7f500cb0642398c5014c6.png

(It was sexting, and very blatantly, too. I've seen the logs, believe me.)

This is another prominent Orenian knowing full well that Blanch has sent sexually explicit messages to a 15 year old. He was 21 at the time of this occurence. They are defending Blanch, and essentially blaming the victim, and I feel that this is indicative of the culture that rules Oren's upper echelons regarding these matters. This further discourages people who are the victim of these types of things from coming forward (and as demonstrated above, there are quite a few victims that did come out, so who knows how many more may have never seen the light of day). I do not know why these people do not feel the need to act in the defense of their community when they discover clear and evident predators among their midst. Instead, they defend this person. If I was a younger plaer enjoying roleplay in a certain community with my friends, and I knew that is how a predator is protected in the community, I'd be much less inclined to come out with my story out of fear of being kicked, and talked shit about to the people I've come to call friends on lotc. 

 

You're not innocent. If you were aware of this, and saw the documents, and didn't go to staff to ask wtf was up, or tried to remove this stain from your community, you're not innocent. You were complacent in what may have happened from then on.

 

 

 

 

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Raising the minimum age at which you can apply to 18 would be controversial at best and feels much more like a punishment to the victims while catering more to the creeps. If anything it would show a level of acceptance and unwillingness to resolve the issue in a way favorable to those who have been on the receiving end of grooming and similar issues. Remember, the groomers are the criminals, not the minors.

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2 minutes ago, blackhand7 said:

r

Very insightful words, second only to Treshure's in this forum.

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admins need to get their heads out of their arses and stop playing so by the book with hard and fast rules when it comes to this shit. if someone is a groomer then ******* BAN THEM. telanir said it himself in that one safety-related forum post back in 2019. he (and i) would rather have some false positives in the system than groomers running around lotc.

 

as for what i think oughta be done? i don't know. spitballing here but maybe getting a few RESPECTABLE and ADULT community leaders of nations, settlements, & groups to make a discord in which this kind of shit can be logged so that we know when to keep people away from our communities. but knowing this server it would just turn into a clique that does nothing but blacklist people they don't like.

 

and ffs, shit needs to be done to make sure that genuinely shitty people don't get away with being shitty. i'm talking small scale to big scale. i don't like avoiding certain locations/groups ooc and ic because i know that they would probably call me the t-slur or the f-slur (that said i'm not sure if the community i'm referring to is still in such a state, it's been a hot minute since i've checked in on 'em)

 

tl;dr better safe than sorry, banning creeps should not be a hard and fast rules type thing it should be handled on a case by case basis, also get rid of people who are awful ingame or out of game

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13 minutes ago, latte said:

Neither Do I , but to an extent on lotc its unavoidable. 

Respectfully, Imo, what you're doing if you make a previous 13+ server 18+ is creates all sorts of new problems, especially with the ct's goal of new player retainment. how are you going to regulate this without a full server reset? How are you going to regulate 200+ players that get on every day? This idea isn't plasable, and imo turns the server into something that allows 18+ stuff. There is a reason why 18+ channels in nation discords are discouraged, no less the whole server.

 

my opinion is radical so i don't expect it would be functional, probably with a smaller map and less nations; regulating a minimum age of 18 tho doesn't mean that everything can or should be suddenly 18+ in material, the current rules work fine -- it just systematically removes any chance of people being preyed upon in such a way as minors have been here

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Hey hello hi it's me, random person you don't know
I don't know if someone's said this already, or if I'm just saying what was said in the video with different wording, but imma say it anyways

People really need to stop treating Minecraft Roleplay crap like this, like it's a damn court case. I've seen it in just about every RP I've been in, and it just doesn't make sense that people think they need irrefutable evidence to stop idiots from ruining these communities, or ruining them even further in some servers. Yes, in most cases you need more than just a gut feeling to ban someone, but you also don't need all of this.

It's almost like people forget that we're on a Minecraft fantasy roleplaying server, why must everything be so serious and complicated? And why does it take this mess to make sure that the creeps don't creep on here?

I'm probably just repeating everything else, so this is really just a long and likely convoluted way of saying "Yeah I agree", but there's my two cents. Time to go put the clown mask back on

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As of about a month ago I turned 23. I joined the server when I was 12, when our community was the most unmoderated and feral, and in the difference I've been exposed to the best and - obviously relevant to this topic - worst of not only the internet at large but our very niche, secluded, dim corner of the web. In the first month of Aegis being released I encountered Indelwyn, DecoLamb, and Vardak (three names which should jog the memory of any old hat), the latter two being a pair I fell in with in the (hopefully forgotten) group House Thyone and stayed in their company for roughly 18 months. Even having firsthand real-life experience with sexual abuse, predation, and grooming at that age I did not recognize their behavior and abuse of my closest friend(s); at no point until the victim came to me in distress did I realize what had been going on for so long. Even in the wake of these revelations, bans, and shattering and splintering of friend groups I was a dumb kid and didn't think twice about starting a physical relationship with an LotCer in my area at 14 years old. In the same vein I was cozy and friendly in Ski_King's circle before and during his tenure as admin and at no point recognized the suffering of his multiple victims nor was I wise to what attempts he made at me until years after the fact. I failed my friends.

 

I have seen the abuse of minors most of my life: real life friends, online friends, online acquaintances, family, and myself. Nothing triggers me or boils my blood more than this subject. Not only does it rile up my traumas and start my waterworks but it bristles my base humanity and wrings out my sympathy to leave only raw hate. Beyond being our duty as humans to care about one another, this space - this community, our many circles - is special to all of us and we know what grand fun, healing, and connection it is capable of and it is our duty as a sprawling group of invested, dedicated friends to protect one another and preserve those feats. The friendships I've forged through this community are as strong as my oldest and most intimate friendships in my personal life of which there are many. I am thankful for LotC. I am thankful for my many friends. I am thankful for you. I love us, you are my people, and beyond wanting to entertain ourselves and each other we NEED to protect ourselves and each other. Nonetheless I have failed to be that guardian time and again. I failed my dearest friend, I failed acquaintances in my community, and I have failed myself and that disappointment fuels my unrelenting rage to this day. I'm an adult now. I am vigilant. I'm willing to throw down anything on the line to prevent the pain I have experienced. Our world is becoming progressively more fucked up and our passions and pastimes should not be another source of stress.

 

We put up with Leowarrior. We put up with Viltaren. Now we put up with HappyShackles. If communities cannot guard themselves just as my vigilance has failed to guard my peers and I then it falls on the people designated to protect us to act. If we were more organized in those days I expect things would be different. If I had an adult nearby something would have caught their attention. Instead we've classically been a horde of barely managed angst teens who come and go and don't learn our lessons. We lack responsibility. We lack accountability. But now more clear than ever we lack humanity.

 

Begone with the bureaucracy and the legalese. Begone with the soullessness. Shoot the shot. If you can't be this shield then let someone else. We knew about all of these people well beforehand and allowing them a place here allows them more opportunities to ruin us. I was ruined and I'm still climbing out of that pit. No one deserves this pain. Act. Please, my friends. For us.

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I don't like this topic, at all. It's something I tend to avoid because of past experiences- but I wanted to speak up about what I think and my opinion.  Things need to change that is for sure- especially towards groomers and everything. But coming from someone who came from a community that got deleted because of this same shit- I think the ultimate thing to help is to educate rather then start duck hunting. 

Educate those who are younger on what grooming is and how to avoid it. Because in the end that is the most we can truly do. We aren't their parents and we aren't the police. Sure you can ban them but if someone is truly groomed they won't notice it. They'll keep talking to that person on discord or any other way. It's a never ending cycle. They normally don't realize until they are an adult because it then becomes obvious. So keep an eye out on the minors of the server- make sure if you see ANYTHING happening you mention it right away. 

When I was new on the server I was younger, I believe I was 15/16 I remember joining voice chats and having fun with everyone because that's what this community gives you- you can make friends and family it's incredible. But It was ruined for me because of a player I won't name because I do not like to call out people for others to send death threats or worse- no matter how deserving I don't believe anyone deserves that. But this person would come in the voice chat and say the creepiest things to me- to the point a separate voice channel was made and that's where I had to go because they made me so uncomfortable. Others noticed it and I don't think that player is around anymore (thankfully)

 

But Like I said just keeping your eyes open for others. Don't make jokes over things when someone mentions someone doing stuff- help them out. And if you're a sick person who thinks "Oh I'm gonna frame someone just because I can teehee" - Just leave. Leave this server because that is horrible and lying about such things is utterly disgusting. 

 

But like I state before. At the end of the day. If you ban someone it won't stop them if they are preying on a poor kid who doesn't know any better. I don't agree with an Age cap or raising the minimum age- I agree with education. We aren't their parents but there needs to be a way to help others understand. 

 


 

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I'm going to post a Discord-based diatribe I typed out in anger recently on this subject in the spoiler. It is very ranty and badly formatted; it generally agrees with this video, just adds a note about how evidence disappears and victims give up in frustration. I'm just too lazy to rewrite it to be more forum friendly rn.

 

Spoiler
November 30, 2021
  1. LotC uses "due process" as an excuse to not act rather than an explanation.
     
     
     
     
  2. [4:41 PM]
    It'd explain things if the consequences of not following due process were large.
     
     
     
     
  3. [4:42 PM]
    But the consequences of not acting are much larger.
     
     
     
     
  4. [4:42 PM]
    And far too often things just "go away" because of how long they take to even start working on it.
     
     
     
     
  5. [4:43 PM]
    The injured party gives up or leaves, or even gets harassed or love-bombed into dropping their complaints.
     
     
     
     
  6. [4:43 PM]
    Evidence disappears.
     
     
     
     
  7. [4:44 PM]
    And the guilty party get enabled to continue, perhaps even given hints on how to do it without pinging staff next time.
     
     
     
     
  8. [4:48 PM]
    Staff is fine with it that way, though; a very serious problem just disappears if they don't acknowledge it at all, because the fact is even if many of these instances do blow up on the forums, it's not what happens with the majority of cases. They'll get pissy every time it does blow up, citing that due process wasn't followed and downplay the damage to the injured parties.
     
     
     
     
  9. [4:50 PM]
    Staff positions themselves being volunteer revolving doors doesn't help. It makes it super easy to have issues just have hands washed because they weren't there at the time, or on hiatus, or whatever. (edited)
     
     
     
     
  10. [4:51 PM]
    And the more constant staff members are so hands-off in their approach it's a farce.
  11. [4:51 PM]
    i.e. Telanir's answer of "here's an email just shoot me one whenever you're sexually harassed or bullied or whatever lmao"
  12. [4:53 PM]
    Because "someone said mean words to me on discord" and "this person is literally tricking minors on the server into producing child porn" is the same thing and can be solved with a ******* email
     
     
     
    b74453a557d2cc612e1502dc3208e26f.webp?si
  13. This isn't really unique to LotC, either. Some of you might've seen instances of schools/unis, for instance, doing similar things. Just ignoring it and citing due process until the injured party actually just gives up and drops out/moves. It even happens in law. But due process at least means something in these instances. A false accusation means losing your scholarship, getting kicked out of school, getting put on a list, getting arrested and maybe imprisoned unjustly. (edited)
  14. [5:00 PM]
    But the consequence of not going through due process on a minecraft server is... the accused doesn't get to play on the server, anymore (edited)
  15. [5:02 PM]
    The consequence of not acting, though, means you leave someone dangerous around to harm more people.
  16. [5:03 PM]
    It just bothers me. The calculus they claim they're enacting is so lopsided.

 

Edited by Murdervish
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3 hours ago, Treshure said:

 

This is meant to stimulate a conversation. Locking or deleting it won't stop that.

jaw dropped, you have my respect man.

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This is based. I'm glad we're finally on the conversation after all this time. 5 years on LOTC and only now are we seriously addressing this as a whole player base, truly, absolutely based and redpilled.

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This a problem that has existed for a long time in our community. It's quite obvious that there needs to be more resources directed to prevent stopping this.

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2 hours ago, FlemishSupremacy said:

Having had a hand in more than one instance of getting a predator removed, I can safely say that the process is a frustrating one to say the least. In one case, someone who had been banned on multiple roleplaying servers for grooming and having admitted to flying out to another country to have sexual contact with a minor IRL. 5 days later, I get informed that the guy logged onto the server, not having been investigation banned at all. 7 days after I originally sent the report off, Llir came to screenshare me to check the validity of the evidence i had provided. I don't agree entirely with the idea that you should just go off gut feeling to ban someone, but I do believe that when there is sufficient evidence as is (nearly said was there but i realise he's not banned yet) obviously the case in KPs situation, you shouldn't have to wait for additional evidence as that's usually only going to surface as an additional victim. Instantly investigation ban alleged predators, but also allow them to see the evidence brought before them so they can defend themselves. (Unless it is overwhelming evidence and can be verified)

 

There's another thing I'd like to touch on, and that is certain community's attitude towards a situation when it comes to light. On the one hand, you've certain communities who admirably shun predators, people who harass and make racist, sexist, homophobic, etc comments. For one, I think that the way @Bhasedhas dealt with the problematic players in his community is admirrable and deserves commending.

 

Then there's the other end of the spectrum; Oren. I'm not going to bloom it up for anyone but Oren's notoriously had an issue with groomers and nothing being done from the community about them. You've had a remarkably high amount of groomers in Oren's upper leadership (Kralek, orenian prince, Dabliusmaximus, orenian prince, Icarnus, Orenian Emperor, Blancharizard, prominent orenian nobleman, KP, Orenian Emperor), and remarkably little being done about. I often felt like I was more at risk of being banned for sharing the doc with the KP evidence than KP ever was creating those logs. 

 

Let there be no mistake; The old hats and prominent figures of Oren knew full well that KP had been involved in this kind of stuff, and a good chunk of them also knew he was still sexpesting. They still allowed him to be emperor. At no point did they think that it was a good idea to maybe not let the man accused of grooming take an incredibly prominent and powerful position in a nation that attracts a lot of young, impressionable people. They knew this and did not act. Think that the allegations are old and that he surely isn't doing these types of things anymore? 

 

d39bea22667c61b2e3a65f03d88968c6.png

(close up of shared screenshot, of an Orenian former lord exchequer who then became admin)

Image

This clearly shows that Orenian high command knew of Tango and his sexpesting, but did nothing. 

 

Think that the allegations are old and that he surely isn't doing these types of things anymore? I have heard more than one story of KP taking it to sexual tinted roleplay that have occured way past 2017.

5bf7e594a89092cf7f3c606143c6e827.png

He is, since having become emperor, still very much engaging in clearly sexually themed roleplay (cus what's the point of getting a mistress if not for that??) And since he's easily gotten away with it so far, why shouldn't he keep doing so? In this scenario, there was a significant age gap between the two (although they were both adults). I've also heard of KP requesting similar things of people who weren't adults at the time, despite him being quite old for this server (27, I believe).

 

So what worries me, is that very few people in Oren felt the need to do anything about this. Not the people who agreed to have him play heir and eventually become Emperor, not the people who saw the report. What I usually heard was something along the lines of "He wasn't banned, so staff said he did nothing wrong, so i shouldn't do anything." Staff said he did nothing wrong but what do your eyes say when I show you this doc? "Let's wait for staff to do something about it" No. You know this information now that you've been shown, you should be expected to act on it, and not pretend like you don't know once this conversation ends. Another example of this that I can bring up is when Blanchizard finally (well overdue) caught a ban for his grooming of a minor. I went to ask a player who is a prominent figure in Oren and who was quite close with him at the time to remove him from their discord, to which an argument ensued where they essentially defended Blanch. Without boring you with the entire discussion, here's the gist of it.

20abf41bf9516614bbe8a8a723144fec.png

e3811c10eae7f500cb0642398c5014c6.png

(It was sexting, and very blatantly, too. I've seen the logs, believe me.)

This is another prominent Orenian knowing full well that Blanch has sent sexually explicit messages to a 15 year old. He was 21 at the time of this occurence. They are defending Blanch, and essentially blaming the victim, and I feel that this is indicative of the culture that rules Oren's upper echelons regarding these matters. This further discourages people who are the victim of these types of things from coming forward (and as demonstrated above, there are quite a few victims that did come out, so who knows how many more may have never seen the light of day). I do not know why these people do not feel the need to act in the defense of their community when they discover clear and evident predators among their midst. Instead, they defend this person. If I was a younger plaer enjoying roleplay in a certain community with my friends, and I knew that is how a predator is protected in the community, I'd be much less inclined to come out with my story out of fear of being kicked, and talked shit about to the people I've come to call friends on lotc. 

 

You're not innocent. If you were aware of this, and saw the documents, and didn't go to staff to ask wtf was up, or tried to remove this stain from your community, you're not innocent. You were complacent in what may have happened from then on.

 

 

 

 

******* love Flemish. That is all. 

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I think I've been lucky as a woman in general. Being raised in a sheltered Christian household gave me the tools that I really needed to be safe cause I knew I could always say 'no', I don't know how to word it. It gave me the awareness at a young age to know kinda when I'm being coerced into that situation. I guess that's what's mostly kept me from being groomed? I don't know how else to really say it. Raising the server's rating would only really encourage more issues of the same nature.. but I think the best method of prevention is diligence and being vigilant. The predator isn't even the adult in all the cases, and that's the scary part. LoTC had a young minor going around manipulating people into that type of crap. I confronted the minor and I said "you can't be doing this, you could get people in trouble and you're not telling them your age" and it was just really really bad, and they refused to change. It was so unnerving to see the minor behaving like a predator towards players and characters younger than themselves.

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