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[IRP // OOC] An open letter to Haeseni nobility // In Defense of Haense


Lomiei
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[!] An open letter is addressed to the nobility of the haeseni population.

 

For far too long, the honor and dignity of my family has been insulted to a large extent. Now, this for the majority of time, has been directed towards myself. However, recently, some of this public ire has been passed down to my family. Which is in the highest sense, ret**ded. 

 

There are some among the higher echelons of society that use their status of nobility to justify heinous attitudes towards their contemporaries of lower status, which is what I acknowledge myself to be at this moment. And as such, with respect for the institution of nobility, and with full love for every citizen of the glorious kingdom in which I live… Shut. Up.

 

Take this not as an insult, but as a point of view. For I have many loving friends and lifelong companions with noble status, all of whom I enjoy spending time with. However, not many… no, hardly a fraction of those nobles who speak ill of myself or my family have ever interacted with me or my kin enough to have reasonably formed such opinions.

Be wary of those who take no hesitancy to speak
about you, but hardly find the opportunity to speak with you. This should not be a trait of those who are supposed to represent Haense’s finest population. This should not be a trait of those who use the justification of blood birth to hold high positions in our government and public face.

 

Be more Brave to confront me. Whether in public or private, to speak with me as I have with others. I do not bite. If any among my statesmen have a problem with me, make it known, and we can work toward a solution.
Be more Loving. For do you not have compassion for those who share a vast swath of northern land with you? If it is so, why do you suffer to spend so much time in our nation’s capital, instead of sitting in your vassal holdings and being pampered and flattered by maids whilst having your hair done?

Be more Tactful, for if it is befitting of you and your family to employ underhanded schemes and private gossip to diminish the popularity of a figure, would it not make such an endeavor more effective to wear a smile on your public visage, while carrying a snowball of toxicity behind your back, ready to launch attacks at your lessers as soon as their gazes are differently oriented? 

 

If the nobility is to be respected, they cannot forgo the responsibility of cordiality that is expected of them. However, no perfect man puts his quill to parchment at the time this is written. It is a certainty, on equal measure of taxes and death itself, that there will be those who disagree with this opinion. For those, I implore you, speak your mind to rationalize what about this missive you disagree with, leaving the reputation of it’s writer (however justified or unjustified it may be), as a distant detail - As opposed to the fundamental basis for disregarding, that those who even still will take into large account my reputation (however justified or unjustified it may be), will use.

Signed,

Ser Erwin Bishop The Headhunter, Patriarch of House BIshop,





((OOC: This parts prolly more important to read than the above stuff))
 

Spoiler

OOC: This post and the ensuing chaos from it stems from multiple incidents in Haense, but it must be stressed that the reason my character and his family are often controversial to say the least, is because of ||sometimes|| legitimate grievances, and some gossip/rumors irp; and the fact that my character has not really done much to address them.

 

OOCly, Haense has a reputation of being predominantly cliquey, but as someone who has been here since july 23rd of 2021, I know thats not true in the way people say. The Haense community is super welcoming irp and ooc for new players especially, and the longer youre there, the more you can get involved with, and the more people can have opportunities to make relationships with you and get to really spend time in a wonderful place.

With regard to a recent post that was made: Yes, there are some people who take gossip about people to be true, and dont act in the best faith oocly. But there are people like that everywhere, and at least there are some people in haense that will actually wait and talk to the involved parties to see the full story before continuing rumors. Or even do the reasonable thing and ignore them straight out.

The reason I joined LOTC was because I'm fascinated with proper high medieval, feudal government roleplay. And in my time with Sutica [the canonist one], and then with savoy and rozania, ive seen that Haense does what i'm looking for in a very fair manor, far better than any other nation there is, and I believe, better than any other nation will or can.

Tldr, Haense has some problems, but its #1 for sure, at least in this newbie’s not-so-humble opinion.

 

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Its nice that you've had a good experience but most people who have problems with Haense have problems with Haense for old and enduring reasons. New players generally see the more charitable and friendly side of old players, particularly when they are trying to recruit people for their hub. 

 

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It is cliquey. Trying to roleplay with Haensers is difficult to the point where I just neglect going there entirely. When I first rejoined the server a few months ago, I had tried to ingratiate myself through roleplay means. Hadn't joined any related discords or anything. 

I was time and time again met with if not outright being ignored, then reluctantly roleplayed with. Even then still, I am usually dropped as soon as someone "better" comes along, leaving me to just aimlessly browse the stalls which sell PVP gear and various wool blocks. The only time I was ever actually engaged with was when someone tried to recruit me into the Haense Army. I think the most blatant example of this is when I had spent maybe 2 hours roleplaying with a small group of non-Haensers, with one of them offering my character to join their family for dinner, which happened to be Haense mains. I accepted, but when it came to enter the house they closed the door in my face mechanically and refused me entry. Maybe it was justified, maybe it wasn't, but after that I haven't been to Haense since.

That being said, I have had good experiences within the capital tile. I met a Norlandic monster hunter which swapped stories with me, two elfesses I accidentally bodyslammed via breaking a glass floor, and even met someone I'd call a close OOC friend within the Haense capital! But the unifying factor there is that none of them actually mained Haense.

I dunno, maybe I just got a really bad hand when it comes to RP over there, but I don't see myself going there anytime soon. I'm glad you are enjoying yourself though! Maybe I'll stop by and say hi to you or something. More than happy to be proven wrong if it means I can RP in a new spot!!

 

Edited by TryaxReck
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I think cheeseburges go well with waffle fries

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Lovely that you had a good experience, mate. So did I for my first 6-9 months. There aren't any points that @TryaxReck & @Narthok haven't made that I wouldn't have personally said myself - and in addition, while I may have met many of my good friends in Haense, I have seen many of those same people quit the community over the issues entailed by my the two individuals I mentioned, and many more. Haense helped me grow as a roleplayer, but it also helped to decide for me that nation roleplay was truly not for me. I won't ever regret the days I had in Haense, or the stories I helped build and experienced, but I will always regret not seeing the writing on the wall sooner in the vain hope things would have gotten better for myself and my friends. I don't begrudge those who enjoy the community that Haense offered, and offers at current, but I don't believe myself or the communities driven out of Haense will be returning any time soon. I have tremendous respect for @Xarkly as an NL and an individual, and he is someone I count among the individuals on this server to be a genuine roleplayer and a man of integrity that isn't often seen these days, so I hope he can work towards mending those fences with the many, many people who have been run off. 

 

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5 hours ago, TryaxReck said:
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It is cliquey. Trying to roleplay with Haensers is difficult to the point where I just neglect going there entirely. When I first rejoined the server a few months ago, I had tried to ingratiate myself through roleplay means. Hadn't joined any related discords or anything. 

I was time and time again met with if not outright being ignored, then reluctantly roleplayed with. Even then still, I am usually dropped as soon as someone "better" comes along, leaving me to just aimlessly browse the stalls which sell PVP gear and various wool blocks. The only time I was ever actually engaged with was when someone tried to recruit me into the Haense Army. I think the most blatant example of this is when I had spent maybe 2 hours roleplaying with a small group of non-Haensers, with one of them offering my character to join their family for dinner, which happened to be Haense mains. I accepted, but when it came to enter the house they closed the door in my face mechanically and refused me entry. Maybe it was justified, maybe it wasn't, but after that I haven't been to Haense since.

That being said, I have had good experiences within the capital tile. I met a Norlandic monster hunter which swapped stories with me, two elfesses I accidentally bodyslammed via breaking a glass floor, and even met someone I'd call a close OOC friend within the Haense capital! But the unifying factor there is that none of them actually mained Haense.

I dunno, maybe I just got a really bad hand when it comes to RP over there, but I don't see myself going there anytime soon. I'm glad you are enjoying yourself though! Maybe I'll stop by and say hi to you or something. More than happy to be proven wrong if it means I can RP in a new spot!!

 

 

Like every nation, Haense has its issues. Its one of the oldest communities on the server, but its a bit different from others in that it has a foundation of a lot subcommunities, mainly for individual noble houses. The natural consequence of this is that it is absolutely hard for newer people to integrate sometimes, definitely moreso than some other nations. It's not the most noob-friendly, which is really unfortunate, but all there really is to be said is that it's something that's being worked on. We've been saying it for months that new player integration is probably our most prevalent issue and have gradually been trying to make tweaks, but it's mostly a matter of cycling out older attitudes and inclinations of how people RP in groups. That said, the nation's still not going to be for everyone, which is why LotC has a lot more to offer. I guess the point I'm trying to make in this paragraph is that -- yeah, for sure we Haense has its problems, but with a bit of luck maybe it can be fixed before the next nation leader faces a new batch of problems.

 

6 hours ago, Narthok said:

  

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Its nice that you've had a good experience but most people who have problems with Haense have problems with Haense for old and enduring reasons. New players generally see the more charitable and friendly side of old players, particularly when they are trying to recruit people for their hub. 

 

 

To be honest, I feel like each nation needs to be appraised based on the leader at the given time and the relevant ideals perpetuated, rather than association with the name in general. I know how easy it is to hold disdain towards a name itself -- I was very bitter towards Renatus for their aggression against Haense when I was a much younger and stupider player on Atlas -- but, obviously, we should be really careful not to embed this general disdain towards a name rather than what a community actually currently represents. I'm not saying you don't have valid reasons, but moreso expressing caution at the notion of 'old reasons', because communities and their ideals change a lot from NL to NL. Pr0fit's Norland isn't the same Norland as Mason's and most before him, Nect's Oren isn't the same as those who came before him, the same way my Haense isn't (whether that's for better or worse is up to you).

 

Despite the fact it is, in my own words, built on older and enduring subcommunities, when it comes to the nation as a whole, faces and leaders come and go, and new generations overtake the old. In that regard, it's definitely much fluid than it was in that the same circles aren't the ones in control like they did for years at a time in the past. While the name, whether Norland, Oren, or Haense, persists, what that name actually represents can be profoundly different from what it did years or even months ago.

 

So yeah, I just think we all need to be very careful when it comes to old reasons, and how we OOCly act towards modern entities wearing old names. If you wanna talk more about that you're free to dm me at Conor#8203.

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2 hours ago, Xarkly said:

To be honest, I feel like each nation needs to be appraised based on the leader at the given time and the relevant ideals perpetuated, rather than association with the name in general. I know how easy it is to hold disdain towards a name itself -- I was very bitter towards Renatus for their aggression against Haense when I was a much younger and stupider player on Atlas -- but, obviously, we should be really careful not to embed this general disdain towards a name rather than what a community actually currently represents. I'm not saying you don't have valid reasons, but moreso expressing caution at the notion of 'old reasons', because communities and their ideals change a lot from NL to NL. Pr0fit's Norland isn't the same Norland as Mason's and most before him, Nect's Oren isn't the same as those who came before him, the same way my Haense isn't (whether that's for better or worse is up to you).

 

Despite the fact it is, in my own words, built on older and enduring subcommunities, when it comes to the nation as a whole, faces and leaders come and go, and new generations overtake the old. In that regard, it's definitely much fluid than it was in that the same circles aren't the ones in control like they did for years at a time in the past. While the name, whether Norland, Oren, or Haense, persists, what that name actually represents can be profoundly different from what it did years or even months ago.

 

So yeah, I just think we all need to be very careful when it comes to old reasons, and how we OOCly act towards modern entities wearing old names. If you wanna talk more about that you're free to dm me at Conor#8203.

To be entirely honest I just think Haense is one of the most unpleasant communities on the server. Haense has been allowed to get away with bloody murder because of a mysterious plot shield imposed by admins on more than one instance. No consequences for extremely stupid actions again and again. Yet Renatus, Norland, Nectorist Oren ecetera have all been forced to look down the barrel of the gun while your predecessors whined and cried in OOC to avoid the consequences of RP to preserve their weird cliquey infidelity simulator nation. 

 

I don't know who you are and can sympathize with you not wanting to be judged by the actions of others but that is part of what it means to lead an old nation. Prof is one of original 5 founding members of Norland, his Norland may be different than the newlanders  or the Reiver kings but it is certainly not a big departure from the status quo of Norland. Nectorist may be going through his first Emperorship but the Empire still runs and feels like Oren, albeit with far fewer wigs and eunuch rpers. 

 

I recognize that Haense has driven out a lot of the older members of its community, I don't know the circumstances surrounding that and frankly don't care. Maybe the community has changed but beyond the Barclays I will wait and see with this new Xarkly Haense. 

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33 minutes ago, Narthok said:

To be entirely honest I just think Haense is one of the most unpleasant communities on the server. Haense has been allowed to get away with bloody murder because of a mysterious plot shield imposed by admins on more than one instance. No consequences for extremely stupid actions again and again. Yet Renatus, Norland, Nectorist Oren ecetera have all been forced to look down the barrel of the gun while your predecessors whined and cried in OOC to avoid the consequences of RP to preserve their weird cliquey infidelity simulator nation. 

 

I don't know who you are and can sympathize with you not wanting to be judged by the actions of others but that is part of what it means to lead an old nation. Prof is one of original 5 founding members of Norland, his Norland may be different than the newlanders  or the Reiver kings but it is certainly not a big departure from the status quo of Norland. Nectorist may be going through his first Emperorship but the Empire still runs and feels like Oren, albeit with far fewer wigs and eunuch rpers. 

 

I recognize that Haense has driven out a lot of the older members of its community, I don't know the circumstances surrounding that and frankly don't care. Maybe the community has changed but beyond the Barclays I will wait and see with this new Xarkly Haense. 

 

Yeah, this was sort of what I meant about attaching your sentiments to the name rather than what it represents. I'm content to have my Haense judged for its own mistakes, but I do think it's unreasonably and unfair to have this "sins of the father" scenario -- I'm sure you'll agree it's massively problematic if issues with the old generation are attributed to the new, which in turn creates OOC tension between the new generation and whoever is attributing those problems to them. Each generation is going to have enough of their own mistakes to account for without also having to deal with those who came before.

 

I'm also a bit dubious about your metric for judging the community to be unpleasant. The instances you're referring to in your first paragraph happened, from what I can gather, over two and a half years ago. That's a long time for LotC and accounts for maybe half a dozen NLs if not more. To apply this discontent for actions taken over 30 months ago to now just feels a bit unrealistic and unconvincing. Again, you're perfectly within your rights to dislike a community - that's what there's plenty to choose from on the server - but I think if you want to reasonably make that claim you shouldn't cite what happened two and a half years ago (and more) as evidence. I'm not saying what happened back then is right or wrong, or whether Oren/Renatus/Norland shouldn't have been given the same opportunities, but I just don't think harkening back to the distant past is going to do anything but perpetuate OOC tensions among people who probably weren't even around for those incidents (for context, every single person on Haense's council did not play in the nation during W2E).

 

Ultimately, there's no way you can ever get redress for your grievances if you look through the lens of 2018/2019. Holding OOC grudges against a community like this - however justifiable they might have been at the time - is only ever just going to lead to OOC conflict with future generations, and I'm sure you'll agree for the sake of a pleasant community/server, we should all work to avoid that.

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36 minutes ago, Xarkly said:

 

Yeah, this was sort of what I meant about attaching your sentiments to the name rather than what it represents. I'm content to have my Haense judged for its own mistakes, but I do think it's unreasonably and unfair to have this "sins of the father" scenario -- I'm sure you'll agree it's massively problematic if issues with the old generation are attributed to the new, which in turn creates OOC tension between the new generation and whoever is attributing those problems to them. Each generation is going to have enough of their own mistakes to account for without also having to deal with those who came before.

 

I'm also a bit dubious about your metric for judging the community to be unpleasant. The instances you're referring to in your first paragraph happened, from what I can gather, over two and a half years ago. That's a long time for LotC and accounts for maybe half a dozen NLs if not more. To apply this discontent for actions taken over 30 months ago to now just feels a bit unrealistic and unconvincing. Again, you're perfectly within your rights to dislike a community - that's what there's plenty to choose from on the server - but I think if you want to reasonably make that claim you shouldn't cite what happened two and a half years ago (and more) as evidence. I'm not saying what happened back then is right or wrong, or whether Oren/Renatus/Norland shouldn't have been given the same opportunities, but I just don't think harkening back to the distant past is going to do anything but perpetuate OOC tensions among people who probably weren't even around for those incidents (for context, every single person on Haense's council did not play in the nation during W2E).

 

Ultimately, there's no way you can ever get redress for your grievances if you look through the lens of 2018/2019. Holding OOC grudges against a community like this - however justifiable they might have been at the time - is only ever just going to lead to OOC conflict with future generations, and I'm sure you'll agree for the sake of a pleasant community/server, we should all work to avoid that.

I actually don't agree that its a massive problem. End of the day Haense isn't 'yours' just like Norland isn't 'mine'. You sit on the chair for a few months until someone else comes along. At best you are a quest giver and internet  janitor whose primary job is making sure your community enjoys itself that is what an LOTC nation leader is. You will be judged for every action of your nation regardless if you agreed with, participated in, or were even on the server for said actions. The nation is its entire cumulative history and community, that's the point, that's half the reason why long lived nations are so interesting. People are passionate about them in both negative and positive ways.

 

If you don't want to be judged for your predecessors then go make a new nation; because you will always be judged for the past of Haense, that's what it means to lead. No matter how much you write on the forums people who don't like Haense are not going to like Haense. 

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2 hours ago, Narthok said:

To be entirely honest I just think Haense is one of the most unpleasant communities on the server. Haense has been allowed to get away with bloody murder because of a mysterious plot shield imposed by admins on more than one instance. No consequences for extremely stupid actions again and again. Yet Renatus, Norland, Nectorist Oren ecetera have all been forced to look down the barrel of the gun while your predecessors whined and cried in OOC to avoid the consequences of RP to preserve their weird cliquey infidelity simulator nation. 

 

I wont even claim to be unbiased on this one, but anyone whos played on the server for long enough to have visited 80% of the nations and settlements will know that first point is objectively false.

My first time in vortice, the people were incredibly rude to my character. And at the time, I was still a pink tag, so those ppl knew it was a new player just trying to sit and have a drink at a tavern, but outright ignored my character despite like 4 emotes of trying to politely interact and introduce myself to the group of 4 people. Didnt leave a good taste in my mouth.
Every subsequent visit to vortice (granted it was only like 3), was racked by either inactivity, or raids by rustlers who arent very nice sometimes oocly. Except for @AnonymousAlexa, shes just an angel and has never acted badly in any way. 
 

Spoiler

That raid I did on vortice upon my 3rd visit was fun as hell though. Sorry about that baby my friend stole but if it was raised in vortice, it probably would have turned out to be an *******.


Now how about Oren? I dont have much experience there, but that place - pre nectorist - was known for being high school levels of cliquey to the point where Ive heard accounts of 3 different families who I wont name (rhyming with Dasrid, P'aryn, and one I cant even remember) have done really odd things like kill, disown, or otherwise ostracize their own kinsmen irply because of disagreement or biases oocly that made those people distance themselves from that whole community. Not to mention the fact that orenian court (of which ive only been to 2, so take this with a picher of salt), have been rife with slanders and gossip about people both in #rp and #qooc.
This is not at all to say oren is a terrible place, but saying haense has a cliqueyness problem and portraying it as one of the worst places on the server is legit unfair when completely ignoring oren and its 100 iterations over the time period of lotc.

Just so this list doesnt go on forever, Ill just talk about the first iteration of savoy for a minute. In comparison to haense's openness to elves, orcs, and dwarves and their cultures (so long as they obey the law), Savoy is known and verified to be extremely racist irp and will LITERALLY kill your character if you dont agree with their 'based' opinions. Now some of the people there are pretty cool ooc, and its actually quite a pretty place now, but having both been there in the beginning, both you and me narthok know this to be true. 

TLDR, if youre looking for the worst or most unpleasant place to rp, haense isnt even top 3.
P.S. some of your other points are valid though, but we will of course disagree on the degree to which they are accurate and portray the community as whole.

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