CELIANOR V. IRON'UZG

[itdontmatta 7192]

Hi @DrunkPapaBear, @Twinny, and @Monkee,

 

The warclaim is scheduled to take place this weekend, Saturday or Sunday. 

 

All pastes are halted unless both sides want to agree to otherwise (both of you have come to me about this). 

[Monkee 7356]

bless

 

preferred day/time for the skirm is saturday at 4pm est

 

we're fine with the orcs using a new fort paste since the old one is so unusable, but on the condition it's reasonable - and so far, from what we've seen, it's not reasonable. instead of a fort dug into the mountainside, we're looking at a facade to a 100 block long pvp gauntlet rat tunnel with dozens of internal gates and completely impossible to treb. it's like if we had the chance to build a fort and decided to just build an underground complex at bedrock level. there's nothing rp about it and it's completely unreasonable

[DrunkPapaBear 1975]

Hello, I agree with having the warclaim at 3-4PM EST as that is a perfect time for us to be able to attend as we have many players from different timezones as does the other side. We are uncertain as of right now as to whether we can do the warclaim on the 25th or this weekend, however we are leaning towards the 25th as many wish to see the two week notice for warclaims as well as prolonged communication with the admin team in regards to our fortress. Our current fort has been made by hand and we have made many attempts to reach out to see what is approved and what is not.

 

Because of this it would lead us little to not time to correct problems with our fortress however we ask the other side to keep in mind that they are infact sieging a mountain hence why we elected a "dwarven-esc" war fortress that uses the exact defenses used by dwarven fortresses prior in hopes of having a "legal" fort. We also are wondering in regards to the recent developments of raid tools such as TNT and Raid Ladders, will they be used in the Warclaim? We hope to have this clarified well before the date of the warclaim should a siege ever happen so that we can prepare accordingly.

[itdontmatta 7192]

The fort is not ultimately important at the moment because this weekend's warclaim will be a skirmish, not a siege. I am willing to allow major modifications to the tile if both sides agree to this.

[Monkee 7356]

12 minutes ago, itdontmatta said:

The fort is not ultimately important at the moment because this weekend's warclaim will be a skirmish, not a siege. I am willing to allow major modifications to the tile if both sides agree to this.

our stance rn is only if reasonable, and rn we don't find it reasonable at all

 

46 minutes ago, DrunkPapaBear said:

they are infact sieging a mountain

tbf we're sieging the tile, and there's a lot more to the tile than the volcano - even settlement-wise, as the pirate cove is right there

 

it's unreasonable to just dig out an underground fortress with internal gates that no amount of trebs in the world can reach. dwarves have an excuse for some underground sieges because underground cities is their whole thing. no reason an orc fort should be built that way and it's blatantly being done just because it's an impenetrable pvp gauntlet

[DrunkPapaBear 1975]

The pirate cove is the lesser of the two builds with the main build itself being the Academy of Dragur that has upwards of 3% of the servers activity. This Academy is a fortress in the depths of a Volcano that, even before the warclaim was declared, had deep caverns and a massive room within the bottom of the Volcano. The newly added war-fortress is just an extension of the already built foundations of the Academy that you have declared war upon. In regards to the fortress not being important, we would like to go ahead and have it prepared allowing us to be able to set it in the past moving closer to the warclaim.

 

A more in-depth view to the Volcano Fortress, it is lead by a group consisting of heralds, and azdrazi including dwarves. RPly the fort was even designed by a Dwarven Character who is a part of the group with avid roleplay playing a part of it's construction as we have done it over the course of a few days in game with roleplay playing a large part of it. Even within your warclaim post you circled the volcano itself as if you meant to siege that in the first place, not the pirate town outside of it. The Academy and the Fortress attached to it are one in the same as it is an active, large-scale roleplay group on the server which is why we see no problems making an extension of what is already a build deep within the Volcano.

[Monkee 7356]

16 hours ago, DrunkPapaBear said:

The pirate cove is the lesser of the two builds with the main build itself being the Academy of Dragur that has upwards of 3% of the servers activity.

activity is measured by tile so i dont really know how you can say it's the academy and not the cove that contributes more - especially when every time ive been there, the academy's been empty and the cove's had people

 

16 hours ago, DrunkPapaBear said:

Even within your warclaim post you circled the volcano itself as if you meant to siege that in the first place

i pretty clearly circled outside of the volcano, just because i couldnt zoom in on the dynmap enough to see where the cove was

 

16 hours ago, DrunkPapaBear said:

The Academy and the Fortress attached to it are one in the same as it is an active, large-scale roleplay group on the server which is why we see no problems making an extension of what is already a build deep within the Volcano.

this is ignoring the fact that after the warclaim was posted you decided to just straight up build an underground pvp gauntlet where there used to be done. trying to justify it through the mental gymnastics of it being near another build that has some underground aspects, and with a dwarf being involved in its construction, really doesnt justify it. so long as the build is a pvp gauntlet built hundreds of blocks into a mountain with loads of internal gates, where the only way we can get through is by trying to mine all the way through a mountain with trebs, there's no reason for us to allow it

[DrunkPapaBear 1975]

The Academy is the primary source of activity for the tile that you are sieging which has a surplus amount of players including your very own nation members that roleplay inside of it. The fortress itself that you keep mentioning is even within the /rg of the academy. There is photo evidence and logs at this of daily activity with average roleplay sessions spanning between 5-15 players.

 

A second note that we would like to make is in regards to roleplay. We are curious as to what the roleplay casus belllis is for this war to be started, we are curious as to why you denounced our warfortress and then said that roleplay doesn’t justify its existence on a roleplay server? Another curiosity we have which also comes as a request was to ensure that rolelay was even done with elysium for them to hand off their tile in to even enable this war at all.

 

In regards to other aspects of the war, is Malinor a physical nation on this server or is this between Krugmar and Celianor. It has been stated rply that celianor is only in the war because of the high prince of malinor and what does malinor encompass? There are elven settlements benefiting from nation perks such as elvenesse which has a green SS pillar and still has their banks and AH from when they were a nation to our knowledge where as they are a settlement and should not have these perks. Another perk applies to forum roles as well. In this statement we speak in regards to fenn and elvenesse which failed multiple activity checks as well as the logistics of who is actually leading this war from the opposing side as you have included not one but two people into this discussion.

 

In regards to the field battle time, we are not electing to fight in the 18th at this moment as we are allowed 2 weeks time after the post for the warclaim to take place.

 

To help explain this scenario, it would be as if we declared war on Malinor and instead of you being able to defend Celianor you would be forced to defend fenn. There is no reason as to why the Academy would not be the defending settlement nor why the placement of the warfortress need be questionable as you, as we stated before, quite literally declared a warclaim upon a volcano filled with people who can live inside of it and around it peacefully. There is no need to alter the roleplay or ooc narrative to be in favor of you not having to follow through with your conquest declaration upon the Academy.

[Monkee 7356]

1 hour ago, DrunkPapaBear said:

The Academy is the primary source of activity for the tile that you are sieging which has a surplus amount of players including your very own nation members that roleplay inside of it. The fortress itself that you keep mentioning is even within the /rg of the academy. There is photo evidence and logs at this of daily activity with average roleplay sessions spanning between 5-15 players.

 

A second note that we would like to make is in regards to roleplay. We are curious as to what the roleplay casus belllis is for this war to be started, we are curious as to why you denounced our warfortress and then said that roleplay doesn’t justify its existence on a roleplay server? Another curiosity we have which also comes as a request was to ensure that rolelay was even done with elysium for them to hand off their tile in to even enable this war at all.

 

In regards to other aspects of the war, is Malinor a physical nation on this server or is this between Krugmar and Celianor. It has been stated rply that celianor is only in the war because of the high prince of malinor and what does malinor encompass? There are elven settlements benefiting from nation perks such as elvenesse which has a green SS pillar and still has their banks and AH from when they were a nation to our knowledge where as they are a settlement and should not have these perks. Another perk applies to forum roles as well. In this statement we speak in regards to fenn and elvenesse which failed multiple activity checks as well as the logistics of who is actually leading this war from the opposing side as you have included not one but two people into this discussion.

 

In regards to the field battle time, we are not electing to fight in the 18th at this moment as we are allowed 2 weeks time after the post for the warclaim to take place.

 

To help explain this scenario, it would be as if we declared war on Malinor and instead of you being able to defend Celianor you would be forced to defend fenn. There is no reason as to why the Academy would not be the defending settlement nor why the placement of the warfortress need be questionable as you, as we stated before, quite literally declared a warclaim upon a volcano filled with people who can live inside of it and around it peacefully. There is no need to alter the roleplay or ooc narrative to be in favor of you not having to follow through with your conquest declaration upon the Academy.

The roleplay casus belli is that the Horde has asked for tribute from a couple of the Malinorian constituent principalities, waded into Elven politics, pushed towards the Hinterlands, and been a nuisance. When we put out demands you attacked us, so I'm not really sure why you're suddenly complaining about the fact we're even at war lol. Despite all those reasons, the rules clearly state we don't need one.

 

The entire Elysian tile transfer was done in roleplay and omni will confirm that.

 

Malinor is a nation of nations. By definition it's not a nation, but its constituents are nations and settlements. Celianor isn't just in this war because Malinor is - the Celianorians were the ones who put out the demands in the first place, and all of your attacks have been against them. Elvenesse is a nation, not a settlement, and it's a nation because it is a subracial nation - the same reason the Orcs stayed a nation when they ran sub-3% activity. Fenn as a principality was disbanded over a month ago, and we've just been waiting on the administration to set up Nor'asath in the west.

 

The fact that you're even arguing about any of the above is a massive waste of time. What are you hoping to get out of that lol

 

As for the field battle date, there's absolutely nothing that states you're allowed 2 weeks time after the post. You're just making that up. There's a custom that the warclaim must happen at earliest a week after the warclaim post, so there's no reason we wouldn't do the field battle this weekend.

 

I'll also state that you shouldn't be allowed to build that fort in the first place without our approval:

As we said to itdontmatta, since the current academy is a mess, we would be okay with allowing you to make a fort on the condition that it's reasonable and not some underground pvp gauntlet. So far, from what we've seen, there's nothing reasonable about an underground bunker complex that literally can't be breached by siege engines.

[DrunkPapaBear 1975]

Thank you on your insight as to what exactly Malinor is, in regards to the 18th being an option we do not accept that time and we will be enlightened to combat you in a field battle on the 25th at the given time of 4PM EST. As per the fortress we thank you for allowing us at the start of this conversation to construct one however in regards to the logistics and "legality" of the fortress that is something that will need to be decided between us and the administration. In our assault upon Elysium, they were granted extended time when we wished to pursue it so we would assume that affect is still in place as we are now on the defensive and request that it be consistent.

 

It would be unfair for the opposing side to dictate what makes a proper war fortress or not and should something get approved on behalf of administration and the mod team that you do not "like" we want it to be clear that permission to build a fort was already given on your behalf. We are still awaiting a response from the administration or mod team regarding the fortress - we have not received any response or feedback. We are glad that you have come to the conclusion that you are in-fact sieging the academy and the narrative of attacking the defenseless and inactive pirate town is no longer in effect.

 

Thank you for clarifying that you are separate nation merely fighting under the same banner. With this knowledge we ask that Administrators place respective rules and guidelines on all settlements and nations outside of Celianor considering that is the nation that is declaring war. This means Elvenesse and Nor’Asath will need to pay/account for the following:

 

- Half of attacking allied tiles are added to the aggressor’s warcost.

 

- Allies of either defending or aggressing nations must consider troop movement. Your army starts in any tile in your territory and, as the army moves, troops are subject to travel costs:

• 750 minas per water, ocean, and land tile.

 

Furthermore, we hope that staff will uphold the rules that they have created and ensure that players are not fighting under Celianor on their characters from other nations to loophole this aspect of war costs.

[Monkee 7356]

10 minutes ago, DrunkPapaBear said:

Thank you on your insight as to what exactly Malinor is, in regards to the 18th being an option we do not accept that time and we will be enlightened to combat you in a field battle on the 25th at the given time of 4PM EST. As per the fortress we thank you for allowing us at the start of this conversation to construct one however in regards to the logistics and "legality" of the fortress that is something that will need to be decided between us and the administration. In our assault upon Elysium, they were granted extended time when we wished to pursue it so we would assume that affect is still in place as we are now on the defensive and request that it be consistent.

 

It would be unfair for the opposing side to dictate what makes a proper war fortress or not and should something get approved on behalf of administration and the mod team that you do not "like" we want it to be clear that permission to build a fort was already given on your behalf. We are still awaiting a response from the administration or mod team regarding the fortress - we have not received any response or feedback. We are glad that you have come to the conclusion that you are in-fact sieging the academy and the narrative of attacking the defenseless and inactive pirate town is no longer in effect.

 

Thank you for clarifying that you are separate nation merely fighting under the same banner. With this knowledge we ask that Administrators place respective rules and guidelines on all settlements and nations outside of Celianor considering that is the nation that is declining. This means Elvenesse and Nor’Asath will need to pay/account for the following:

 

- Half of attacking allied tiles are added to the aggressor’s warcost.

 

- Allies of either defending or aggressing nations must consider troop movement. Your army starts in any tile in your territory and, as the army moves, troops are subject to travel costs:

• 750 minas per water, ocean, and land tile.

 

Furthermore, we hope that staff will uphold the rules that they have created and ensure that players are not fighting under Celianor on their characters from other nations to loophole this aspect of war costs.

itdontmatta has already said the field battle is scheduled to take place this weekend. You're wasting time; the only debate around the day/time is whether it happens this saturday or sunday, and at what time. As for Elysium, crines was given a ban for stalling by a week, so I'm not sure why you think you can do the same thing

 

Permission to build the fort was explicitly given with the condition that it wouldn't be an underground gauntlet, and itdontmatta can confirm that (along with the other people in vc at the time). We're still pretty sure the pirate cove is the primary rp settlement in the tile, but as we said before, we're willing to siege the new fort if it isn't an underground gauntlet.

 

The allied war costs you're talking about were already factored in, not sure what you're hoping to gain.

 

Players will only fight for Malinor if they meet the proper conditions - an associated persona created two weeks before the warclaim with 40 hours on it. There are a number of Ferrymen who played Elves with Fenn, Nor'asath, Celia'nor, or Amaethea very seriously, and who have the proper persona creation date, persona hours, and roleplay. They'll be fighting on their Elves. If you want to contest that we're happy to open your rally up to kick out any players who happen to play another persona outside of Krugmar, but I think you'd find that's unreasonable.

[DrunkPapaBear 1975]

As we have stated before it is up to the administration to decide what is and what isn’t allowed within our war fortress not the opposing side. We have still received no communication from the admin or mod team in regards to direction of this war and we are happy to hear that unlike us, you are receiving that. 
 

As we have also stated before, the pirate town is by no means even questionable as the center of roleplay within the tile. We do not need for the opposing side to try and dictate what is and what isn’t happening on behalf of the defending side.

 

During the Elysium/Horde war, we also asked for the warclaim to be 1 week after the post was up and the decision from administration was that the warclaim would take place 2 weeks after the post, as it is custom. Crines didn’t get banned for « delaying » the warclaim and we all know it. We asked for the warclaim to be on june 25th, since we learned less than a week before the warclaim that this war was accepted, after you tried to bypass war rules by borrowing Elysium’s tile.

Here are some screenshots from the last warclaim discussion you might recognize, itdontmatta asking the same thing he did in this current discussion. In the other screenshot, you can see Zacho giving the verdict that the warclaim will be held 2 weeks after the post is up on the forums.

We simply ask for the same thing Elysium did as most of our players would not be able to attend a surprise warclaim like this.

 

We have nothing further to provide to this thread at the moment until we receive communication from the mods of administration as none of such has occurred on our side after countless attempts to engage in it to be met with nothing but ignorance.

 

[Monkee 7356]

35 minutes ago, DrunkPapaBear said:

As we have stated before it is up to the administration to decide what is and what isn’t allowed within our war fortress not the opposing side. We have still received no communication from the admin or mod team in regards to direction of this war and we are happy to hear that unlike us, you are receiving that. 
 

As we have also stated before, the pirate town is by no means even questionable as the center of roleplay within the tile. We do not need for the opposing side to try and dictate what is and what isn’t happening on behalf of the defending side.

 

During the Elysium/Horde war, we also asked for the warclaim to be 1 week after the post was up and the decision from administration was that the warclaim would take place 2 weeks after the post, as it is custom. Crines didn’t get banned for « delaying » the warclaim and we all know it. We asked for the warclaim to be on june 25th, since we learned less than a week before the warclaim that this war was accepted, after you tried to bypass war rules by borrowing Elysium’s tile.

Here are some screenshots from the last warclaim discussion you might recognize, itdontmatta asking the same thing he did in this current discussion. In the other screenshot, you can see Zacho giving the verdict that the warclaim will be held 2 weeks after the post is up on the forums.

We simply ask for the same thing Elysium did as most of our players would not be able to attend a surprise warclaim like this.

 

We have nothing further to provide to this thread at the moment until we receive communication from the mods of administration as none of such has occurred on our side after countless attempts to engage in it to be met with nothing but ignorance.

 

tbf we haven't been receiving much either, we had to jump itdontmatta in a vc to get a 5 min convo. I'm pretty sure itdontmatta said you could only use the new fort if we let you since the rules don't allow it, and we said yes if you didn't make it a cancerous underground gauntlet, and you did exactly that for the most part.

 

As for the pirate cove, it's not your decision either. It belongs to staff. For conquest, you have to siege the primary settlement within a tile. The pirate cove is an actual town, while the academy is basically a lair. That's why we're asking staff to let us siege the pirate cove.

 

I'm not sure why you're trying to say you didn't expect this war. We've been at war for weeks now and a warclaim was obviously coming. It's not like this has been out of the blue. You've had your war discord up for weeks now. There's no custom to do warclaims two weeks after the post - the only custom is that the post must be up at least a week before the first warclaim.

 

itdontmatta has plainly stated at the start of this thread that it'll be this weekend. In that, you've had no advantage over us; you made your war discord before we did (both of which were made weeks ago) and you put out your war sign-up sheet before we did.

[DrunkPapaBear 1975]

It's not your decision to make if it's "a cancerous underground gauntlet" or not. Once staff come and verify our fort, we will know if it's legal or not.

 

The primary settlement within the tile is the Academy and the underground forteress underneath it. Those who settled in the pirate city used it as a cover for the Academy and as soon as the Academy began to expand, everyone left the pirate city. I know you want an easy fight where we can't defend ourselves, but the pirate city is not a settlement of tile 43 and you'll need to understand that.

 

This war was out of the blue, as members of your leadership stated oocly and irp multiple times that Celianor was not going to declare war, until the leader of a lair overruled their irp and ooc words and posted a warclaim. From what members of your leadership told us, some didn't even knew about the warclaim being posted and personally even didn't want a war, seems like there was some lack of communication on your side.

 

As for the warclaim being this weekend, we sadly can't as we only had a few days notice. We will do the same as Elysium when Krugmar tried to have the warclaim one week after the post was up and staff decided to give two weeks, as it is custom. You can go see the last thread with Elysium again, where itdontmatta said exactly the same thing he did in this one. If you scroll down a little more, you'll see me saying exactly what you are saying right now and yet the warclaim was still held two weeks after the post.

 

I'm sorry my friend :)

 

 

 

1.  

[Monkee 7356]

1 hour ago, DrunkPapaBear said:

It's not your decision to make if it's "a cancerous underground gauntlet" or not. Once staff come and verify our fort, we will know if it's legal or not.

 

The primary settlement within the tile is the Academy and the underground forteress underneath it. Those who settled in the pirate city used it as a cover for the Academy and as soon as the Academy began to expand, everyone left the pirate city. I know you want an easy fight where we can't defend ourselves, but the pirate city is not a settlement of tile 43 and you'll need to understand that.

 

This war was out of the blue, as members of your leadership stated oocly and irp multiple times that Celianor was not going to declare war, until the leader of a lair overruled their irp and ooc words and posted a warclaim. From what members of your leadership told us, some didn't even knew about the warclaim being posted and personally even didn't want a war, seems like there was some lack of communication on your side.

 

As for the warclaim being this weekend, we sadly can't as we only had a few days notice. We will do the same as Elysium when Krugmar tried to have the warclaim one week after the post was up and staff decided to give two weeks, as it is custom. You can go see the last thread with Elysium again, where itdontmatta said exactly the same thing he did in this one. If you scroll down a little more, you'll see me saying exactly what you are saying right now and yet the warclaim was still held two weeks after the post.

 

I'm sorry my friend :)

 

 

 

1.  

Seeing as it's against the rules for you to build it in the first place, and itdontmatta said only we could decide if you could break those rules, yeah we kinda do get to say so lol

 

The pirate's cove is a settlement of tile 43 lol. It's a subregion on tile 43 and an actual settlement, as opposed to a lair

 

Neither this war nor the warclaim were out of the blue. The war was declared after we posted demands and you attacked us. The warclaim was posted after weeks of conflict, including a 29v36, 10v10, 21v33, and 46v46. There's even been a wiki page for it this entire time. You've had your war discord up for weeks. You've had your warclaim sign-up form for days. There's nothing sudden about this. Everyone on our side is on board with the war. If they weren't, they wouldn't be participating, but here they are in our war discord preparing for the warclaim. I'm not sure what you're hoping to get at with this lol

 

You've had more than a week's notice that the warclaim will be this weekend; it's listed on the warclaim thread posted last Friday night, and it's listed by itdontmatta at the top of this thread as taking place this weekend. If you're worried about the factions players you've had applying to fight for you, you should've had them apply and get their hours earlier - maybe during the >2 weeks this war has been happening