arockstar28

[Xarkly 12614]

38 minutes ago, Burnsider said:

I think it would be helpful to look at this, for a moment, from the Moderator perspective. This was a situation with no easy answer. As the roleplay heated up in Oren and Acre in the hour or so prior to the voided attack on the palace, we quickly realized that there were no real rules for what was currently going on. There were several rules that were close to the current situation, but those rules were rhombuses trying to fit in a square hole. They didn't, in a strict sense, exactly apply (and we try to be strict in rules when dealing with PvP in order for there to be a sense of fairness). Even worse, those rules conflicted with each other.

 

There were no real rules, but this is far from a new situation. It's almost identical to what occurred when Savoy backed a coup on New Providence, and it's got similarities to the conclusion of the Brothers' War, too. In both situations, Staff didn't intervene to prevent the widespread participation of foreign rallies in determining the fate of PRO and Nation Status.

 

34 minutes ago, Chennster said:

 

Using Savoy as a rule lawyering point is honestly giving it too much worth. These were completely different situations. Savoy through Lion practically vassalized as Nectorist's retinue (I don't see haense or bvale doing the same), while most of Savoy's population was just disgruntled Orenians after Kosher/KP. Publius eventually disputed this vassalization in his successing reign, proving it did happen under Lion, but even considering that as the largest factor in the Aster Revolution is wholly untrue. You misproportionately forget the amount of support of the Empire's nobles/vassals that were in favor of Nectorist. Add the overnight bans, discord bombs, leaving of leadership, etc., and this becomes a way different situation. You can't equate it. Not to mention that people from nation leadership are going on groups of alternate chars to avoid the rules that prohibited them from doing the very same lol

 

The Acre situation, while not being claimant RP (already making it a much different comparison) cannot and should not rely on a legion of foreign mercenaries to rebel and get their land independent

 

When you break it down, you're arguing that the Aster Revolution and the Acre Incident are distinguishable because (a) Savoy had vassalized, (b) there were lots of Orenians supporting Nectorist, and (c) there were several other relevant factors, including bans, leadership departures, etc. I don't think any of these are very compelling whatsoever - I'll break it down:

 

(a) It's definitely rule-lawyering on your part to say that Savoy was a 'vassal' of a nation that did not yet exist to justify their participation. Savoy was the independent nation, who of their own accord, propped up and played a major role in players of their choice achieving the  nation status of Oren. Also, I'm a bit confused why you keep saying Haense was a part of this to a degree comparable to the Ferrymen. There were three Haense players there in total, two of which were on non-Haense personas. Blackvale has also made a post announcing their 'settlement' in Acre (whether you want to call this vassalsiation is up for debate, but it's clear they've made RP steps to hedge themselves with Acre), and there's no point pretending a lot of Blackvale players haven't been hanging around Acre for a while now (given Acre's origins).

 

(b) There were Orenians supporting Nectorist for sure, but there was also Viros supports up until NL was handed over after the Savoyard invasion. In the same vein, Acre, as a substantially active part of Oren, evidently has a large body of players behind it. In sum, there are 'Orenians' (referring to people from the nation as a whole, factions aside) on both sides, as in the case with the Aster Revolution.

 

(c) I fail to see how Discord bombing, bans, and leadership departures do anything to distinguish the Acre Incident from the Aster Revolution. There's no mitigation of these things at all, there was still a clear chain of command/NL-ship that ended up getting passed off to a faction who enacted a de-facto coup with the support of an outside nation. KP's ban and whatever else did nothing to change the line of the succession or Savoyard intervention. How do these factors change that?

 

38 minutes ago, Burnsider said:

 

On the one hand, this was clearly an internal conflict (the vassal Acre rebelling against the nation Oren). Should we look towards the Internal Conflict rules which state, quite specifically, that "no allies or mercenaries may be involved?" That seemed the right answer initially, but it also wasn't completely as those rules are meant for a declared war, which had not occurred as of yet.

 

On the other hand, this was clearly a raid (a bunch of outside entities which were admitted allies of the vassal Acre garnered through RP going to attack the nation Oren). Should we look towards the Raid rules for "an attack by five or more players of an outside group on a nation, settlement, or lair?" That seemed the right answer too, except the person who was clearly leading the raid (and made the modreq for it) was not a member of an outside group and was continually trying to add all the members of the raid to the various regions in Oren he had control of in an attempt to make them legit in the eyes of an upcoming Internal Conflict declaration.

 

It's at this point I'm finding the Moderation logic a bit questionable, again with reference to precedence in the form of Nectorist v. Viros and Da_Emps v. Lionhz. The fact that you, as a Moderator, are coming down on the line that war had not yet been declared should be answer enough. As in the case with the aforementioned examples, an Orenian faction with some outsider support, through fair and reasonable RP, attempted to kill/capture their enemy. If we refer to these past incidents, why on earth would we suddenly resort to warclaim rules for a large-scale raid? By definition, the only thing it can reasonably be is a raid - in your own words, a war was not declared, no wargoal nor warclaim had been posted. It just seems like an unjustifiable stretch to invite warclaim rules into this situation.

 

Ultimately Burnsider, I can understand why this appeared to be the easier option for Mods, but it is without a doubt extremely harmful to the Acre players. Through superior planning and tactics, they were able to infiltrate the Orenian court undetected and corner their enemy to end the conflict right then and there. This cannot be done again because of today's void - palace entrypoints will be secured, and it's highly unlikely the targetted members of Oren's government will place themselves in a position of that vulnerability again. 

 

They've suffered a lot of harm as a result, and now we're going to see our fourth pitched war in four months.

[JoshBright 2104]

6 hours ago, Xarkly said:

Huh? Raids are uncapped all the time. Coup rules also don't exist, so the distinction is moot.

Coupes would fall under internal conflict and conform to the following: https://www.lordofthecraft.net/warguidelines/

 

Internal Conflict

Internal wars are not subject to any costs. No allies or mercenaries may be involved.

 

Revolution

A person may mobilize players to fight for their claim to the Nation.

• Obtain Primary Region Owner (PRO) backing from a sub-region within one of the nation’s tiles.

• Win a field battle and siege in every tile leading to and including the capital.

* The revolution begins in the tile with the sub-region.

 

 

Also for the other points, Nectorist v Viros was a one-in-a-million thing that I don't think will be repeated on LOTC the fact was that a large majority of oren including multiple nobles and most of the ISA supported nectorist additionally the NL had just gotten TOS'd for action he had taken and the rightful hair was PK'd. At the time in rp the ISA Allowed nectorist into the city in order to take the throne with support from the general later on and multiple dukes even if KP had stayed his days were numbered additionally in rp Viros had no claim to the throne well Nectorist did.

 

As for the brothers' war I believe the mods messed up by allowing outsides forces as those such as Lubba's, Krugmar, and, Ferrymen. However, Blackvale at that point was landed nobility within oren so their involvement is justified. Outside forces should not be allowed in internal conflicts over NL and I believe it was a mistake on the part of moderation to allow it during said war.

However, there is one final point that needs to be mentioned, Itdontmatta, Hogobojo, Squakhawk, Llir, Tythus, Telinir, Burnsider, Rilath, Zachosnacko, and all other moderators are HUMAN, Humans make mistakes and no one is perfect. We all have lives outside of LOTC and it needs to be recognized that a large majority of the time the moderators and admins are forced into a position where they are required to make rulings and choices that have the protentional to impact the entire server and they only have minutes to read over all the information and make the ruling well they are getting spammed, demands and sometimes threats from those involved. 

 

I get this can be incredibly frustrating for the player base however we are all here to have fun and rp. That includes Itdontmatta, Rilath, Burnsiders, Zachosnacko, and, the rest of the mods and staff team. Let's try to put ourselves in each other's shoes before going off on them <3 

[1_Language_1 1671]

bro, let hughbie do his roleplay, i better not find him assassibanned like Twi was.

[Borin 5256]

45 minutes ago, JoshBright said:

Coupes would fall under internal conflict and conform to the following: https://www.lordofthecraft.net/warguidelines/

 

Internal Conflict

Internal wars are not subject to any costs. No allies or mercenaries may be involved.

 

Revolution

A person may mobilize players to fight for their claim to the Nation.

• Obtain Primary Region Owner (PRO) backing from a sub-region within one of the nation’s tiles.

• Win a field battle and siege in every tile leading to and including the capital.

* The revolution begins in the tile with the sub-region.

 

 

Also for the other points, Nectorist v Viros was a one-in-a-million thing that I don't think will be repeated on LOTC the fact was that a large majority of oren including multiple nobles and most of the ISA supported nectorist additionally the NL had just gotten TOS'd for action he had taken and the rightful hair was PK'd. At the time in rp the ISA Allowed nectorist into the city in order to take the throne with support from the general later on and multiple dukes even if KP had stayed his days were numbered additionally in rp Viros had no claim to the throne well Nectorist did.

 

As for the brothers' war I believe the mods messed up by allowing outsides forces as those such as Lubba's, Krugmar, and, Ferrymen. However, Blackvale at that point was landed nobility within oren so their involvement is justified. Outside forces should not be allowed in internal conflicts over NL and I believe it was a mistake on the part of moderation to allow it during said war.

However, there is one final point that needs to be mentioned, Itdontmatta, Hogobojo, Squakhawk, Llir, Tythus, Telinir, Burnsider, Rilath, Zachosnacko, and all other moderators are HUMAN, Humans make mistakes and no one is perfect. We all have lives outside of LOTC and it needs to be recognized that a large majority of the time the moderators and admins are forced into a position where they are required to make rulings and choices that have the protentional to impact the entire server and they only have minutes to read over all the information and make the ruling well they are getting spammed, demands and sometimes threats from those involved. 

 

I get this can be incredibly frustrating for the player base however we are all here to have fun and rp. That includes Itdontmatta, Rilath, Burnsiders, Zachosnacko, and, the rest of the mods and staff team. Let's try to put ourselves in each other's shoes before going off on them <3 

You sound like an ass.
We are here to have fun and roleplay. Yes. Why are people trying to justify staff PREVENTING FUN AND ROLEPLAY.

You are quoting OOC FUNCTIONS. This is the problem. Why are OOC FUNCTIONS defining ROLEPLAY ACTIONS. It is utterly ridiculous and devoid of sense if anyone actually values RP.

[rukio 8910]

6 hours ago, itdontmatta said:

(I'm also unapologetically apologetic for my cope & seethe joke, it's just a prank guys cmon)

 

 

 

Its not a prank though, you're genuinely one of the most immature admins I've had to deal with in a long time. You do this every time because you can't handle actual conflict and its ridiculous. Please, let someone else be admin and step down. Your agenda is stifling. 

4 hours ago, Burnsider said:

I think it would be helpful to look at this, for a moment, from the Moderator perspective. As the roleplay heated up in Oren and Acre in the hour or so prior to the voided attack on the palace, we quickly realized that there were no real rules for what was currently going on. 

 

 

Honestly, looking back on it, I think either decision could have been correct in isolation. However, coupled with the fact that the defenders chose to go the CRP route with approximately 75 people involved, voiding it was by far the less soul draining option for all involved.

((Community guidelines touch on these things :D ))

 

I mean, you can say voiding it is less soul draining but like, why does that matter? Its a roleplay server and it was a roleplay operation and lots of roleplay led to it. I've done nine hour CRP scenarios before. Didn't get voided and we all still have our souls. But people are still going to be punished by Oren for this with the excuse of 'oh they did x too in the past' to get rid of them. 

[lotcforums123 14]

Its simply just another case of rules on the fly being changed rather then players held to the rules. On one hand staff will claim they rule in the favor of roleplay, yet when roleplay is done, they rule in the favor of players not being on regions?

 @JoshBright as said by many, please point us in the direction where an internal warclaim was posted, without that its a raid. Just due to the fact that m1919 made the raid req it becomes internal conflict not a raid? In the case should the acree party of not made a request at all?
 

Honestly lets allow players to play the server and write the wiki posts after the fact, ok buddy?

Spoiler

1 hour ago, JoshBright said:

Coupes would fall under internal conflict and conform to the following: https://www.lordofthecraft.net/warguidelines/

 

Internal Conflict

Internal wars are not subject to any costs. No allies or mercenaries may be involved.

 

Revolution

A person may mobilize players to fight for their claim to the Nation.

• Obtain Primary Region Owner (PRO) backing from a sub-region within one of the nation’s tiles.

• Win a field battle and siege in every tile leading to and including the capital.

* The revolution begins in the tile with the sub-region.

 

 

Also for the other points, Nectorist v Viros was a one-in-a-million thing that I don't think will be repeated on LOTC the fact was that a large majority of oren including multiple nobles and most of the ISA supported nectorist additionally the NL had just gotten TOS'd for action he had taken and the rightful hair was PK'd. At the time in rp the ISA Allowed nectorist into the city in order to take the throne with support from the general later on and multiple dukes even if KP had stayed his days were numbered additionally in rp Viros had no claim to the throne well Nectorist did.

 

As for the brothers' war I believe the mods messed up by allowing outsides forces as those such as Lubba's, Krugmar, and, Ferrymen. However, Blackvale at that point was landed nobility within oren so their involvement is justified. Outside forces should not be allowed in internal conflicts over NL and I believe it was a mistake on the part of moderation to allow it during said war.

However, there is one final point that needs to be mentioned, Itdontmatta, Hogobojo, Squakhawk, Llir, Tythus, Telinir, Burnsider, Rilath, Zachosnacko, and all other moderators are HUMAN, Humans make mistakes and no one is perfect. We all have lives outside of LOTC and it needs to be recognized that a large majority of the time the moderators and admins are forced into a position where they are required to make rulings and choices that have the protentional to impact the entire server and they only have minutes to read over all the information and make the ruling well they are getting spammed, demands and sometimes threats from those involved. 

 

I get this can be incredibly frustrating for the player base however we are all here to have fun and rp. That includes Itdontmatta, Rilath, Burnsiders, Zachosnacko, and, the rest of the mods and staff team. Let's try to put ourselves in each other's shoes before going off on them <3 

 

 

[Aengoth 2883]

need the independence dlc pack to be able to use the allies mechanic 

[Tide1 1593]

10 hours ago, itdontmatta said:

Over 30+ people were added to the oren_acre region within the past day or two, and most of them were coincidentally at this raid.

 

It's like this was done so you wouldn't try to use a lack thereoff as an excuse to illegitimize the roleplay. 

[Borin 5256]

18 minutes ago, Tide1 said:

 

It's like this was done so you wouldn't try to use it as an excuse to illegitimize the roleplay. 

Yeah. You want us to obey the rules so we do, we have all taking part IRP and stuff on the region.

 

The people added were either citizens of Acre generally who were recently added, or added for the conflict we saw coming. All the people added for the conflict were wrangled IRPly. Its not some OOC shittery. Why are rules used to shit on valid RP. Its ridiculous, I understand using the rules to prevent OOC shittery and stuff but this int it.

[rukio 8910]

36 minutes ago, Tide1 said:

 

It's like this was done so you wouldn't try to use a lack thereoff as an excuse to illegitimize the roleplay. 

 

16 minutes ago, Borin said:

Yeah. You want us to obey the rules so we do, we have all taking part IRP and stuff on the region.

 

The people added were either citizens of Acre generally who were recently added, or added for the conflict we saw coming. All the people added for the conflict were wrangled IRPly. Its not some OOC shittery. Why are rules used to shit on valid RP. Its ridiculous, I understand using the rules to prevent OOC shittery and stuff but this int it.

Its just so silly to me that an OOC measure like who is on a region tile defines who can partake in a raid etc. I've had characters live 10-20+ IRP years in a nation/settlement and never have my MC account added to the OOC region. I just don't see a point to being on a tile if I don't need build perms to paste something for someone. Shouldn't mean a character is any less involved in the settlement than random nation fleeper 20 who has been added for months but RPs there once an IRL year. Silly OOC restrictions that prevent the flow of roleplay....

 

Edit: As a side note, @itdontmatta you cited that you cannot allow bad sporsmanship in roleplay yet where was the punishment or lecture when Oren began spamming memes and "Ave Orenia" when you decided the attackers  couldn't stay and it would be voided? That was incredibly bad faith on their part, in my earnest opinion. Unfortunately I don't think I ss'd it because I was just like "man" but, you were there, you know.

 

Also, attackers were willing to do CRP...attempts to explain why this was legitimate were ignored and now any future effort is ruined because a lack of communication. You cannot blame this on a desire to 'click'. 

We're all human and have flaws but genuinely. The way these things are handled need to change. No if and or but. 

[argonian 12837]

5 hours ago, JoshBright said:

Coupes would fall under internal conflict and conform to the following: https://www.lordofthecraft.net/warguidelines/

 

Internal Conflict

Internal wars are not subject to any costs. No allies or mercenaries may be involved.

 

Revolution

A person may mobilize players to fight for their claim to the Nation.

• Obtain Primary Region Owner (PRO) backing from a sub-region within one of the nation’s tiles.

• Win a field battle and siege in every tile leading to and including the capital.

* The revolution begins in the tile with the sub-region.

 

 

Also for the other points, Nectorist v Viros was a one-in-a-million thing that I don't think will be repeated on LOTC the fact was that a large majority of oren including multiple nobles and most of the ISA supported nectorist additionally the NL had just gotten TOS'd for action he had taken and the rightful hair was PK'd. At the time in rp the ISA Allowed nectorist into the city in order to take the throne with support from the general later on and multiple dukes even if KP had stayed his days were numbered additionally in rp Viros had no claim to the throne well Nectorist did.

 

As for the brothers' war I believe the mods messed up by allowing outsides forces as those such as Lubba's, Krugmar, and, Ferrymen. However, Blackvale at that point was landed nobility within oren so their involvement is justified. Outside forces should not be allowed in internal conflicts over NL and I believe it was a mistake on the part of moderation to allow it during said war.

However, there is one final point that needs to be mentioned, Itdontmatta, Hogobojo, Squakhawk, Llir, Tythus, Telinir, Burnsider, Rilath, Zachosnacko, and all other moderators are HUMAN, Humans make mistakes and no one is perfect. We all have lives outside of LOTC and it needs to be recognized that a large majority of the time the moderators and admins are forced into a position where they are required to make rulings and choices that have the protentional to impact the entire server and they only have minutes to read over all the information and make the ruling well they are getting spammed, demands and sometimes threats from those involved. 

 

I get this can be incredibly frustrating for the player base however we are all here to have fun and rp. That includes Itdontmatta, Rilath, Burnsiders, Zachosnacko, and, the rest of the mods and staff team. Let's try to put ourselves in each other's shoes before going off on them <3 

It clearly says that internal conflicts are just war goal types, and coups aren't even mentioned in the rules. 

 

No war was even declared yet.

[z3m0s 1773]

10 hours ago, Pancho said:

If that's his sense of humor, he needs to get his money up not his funny up because his comedy career is over.

SHEEEEEEEEESH

Spoiler

No issue with anyone, I just thought that was a banger while lurking in this thread lmao

 

[Nooblius 5794]

35 minutes ago, Chennster said:

 

What do you mean by this? You can't really "allow" veracity of RP when it's done in bad faith. Leaders of other nations and 3rd party mercs going on separate personas to establish "RP" for the sake of it, to bypass the internal conflict rule and bypass blame to their nation, while being hastily added to the region last-minute, really isn't verifying it was done in good faith. Having internal wars be solely internal pretty much addresses your last point. A rebellion that successfully makes land independent should reflect having a force that can successfully secede itself.

 

There isn't an internal conflict rule for this, that's explicitly for warclaims (which this server likes to treat as separate from organic RP conflict for some reason)- this was a fight, a raid. What point is there in classifying it as a rebellion- where in the rebellion rules does it say you can just walk up and spontaneously coup in a night? This was organic RP, and when mods put NO CAPS on this sort of conflict despite evidently being very aware that having no rules to massive fights is a bad idea, then they are responsible for the bad outcome.

I really don't side with either group here, I liked stuff I heard about acre and got friends playing there but as you know I'm friendly with a lot people against them- and beyond all that that's just OOC. RPly I have quite literally no horse in this. I think the moderation need to take accountability for the shoddy state of conflict rather than throw it on people and call it bad faith with a minimal investigation. I've had people telling me OOCly for a few days that Acre was doing a lot of RP to build up friendships and backroom deals, and it's the only reason I'm defending them; Because I literally heard about the planning for this in Roleplay. I cannot by any means ignore people calling it all OOC fuckery when I was second-hand witness to it. I feel bad to see Borin and whoever else from Acre screaming into the void "We did this!" and everyone automatically dismissing it. 

This is neither Oren nor Acre's fault, if Moderation didn't want situations like this to happen they shouldn't have had uncapped raids. They should have made rules making it specific a raiding party should all be one group. They should have brought the internal conflict rules beyond just Warclaim section of rules (Btw, it's been common precedent for a while now that outside groups could help internal wars in raids, just not in the warclaims. I remember being told this several times).

 

Yes, I get Moderation are humans and I'm not saying they should all leave server or hate themselves, but just take some accountability for things. 

[Xarkly 12614]

10 hours ago, JoshBright said:

Coupes would fall under internal conflict and conform to the following: https://www.lordofthecraft.net/warguidelines/

 

 

No, they wouldn't. Internal conflicts are warclaim rules.

 

10 hours ago, JoshBright said:

Also for the other points, Nectorist v Viros was a one-in-a-million thing that I don't think will be repeated on LOTC the fact was that a large majority of oren including multiple nobles and most of the ISA supported nectorist additionally the NL had just gotten TOS'd for action he had taken and the rightful hair was PK'd. At the time in rp the ISA Allowed nectorist into the city in order to take the throne with support from the general later on and multiple dukes even if KP had stayed his days were numbered additionally in rp Viros had no claim to the throne well Nectorist did.

 

 

If you take a look at my previous comment, I break down why Nectorist v. Viros wasn't a one-in-a-million; far from it. It bears substantial similarities to the current situation, including outsider intervention, Orenians on both sides of the conflict (you conversely point to the ISA, who remained in Viros' camp until they stood down), and, like I've said, TOS bans etc. have absolutely no relevance. As far as OOC mechanics are concerned, 'claims to the throne' are also completely irrelevant. 

 

10 hours ago, JoshBright said:

As for the brothers' war I believe the mods messed up by allowing outsides forces as those such as Lubba's, Krugmar, and, Ferrymen. However, Blackvale at that point was landed nobility within oren so their involvement is justified. Outside forces should not be allowed in internal conflicts over NL and I believe it was a mistake on the part of moderation to allow it during said war.

 

Once you establish precedence (i.e., the Brothers' War) it's entirely inappropriate to disagree/change that precedence only when it applies to a similar situation (the Acre incident). If Mods thought the ruling of the Brothers' War was defective and incorrect, that should have been distinguished immediately -- it's completely unfair to let Acre mistakenly rely on that precedent if Mods believe it's erroneous. 

 

10 hours ago, JoshBright said:

However, there is one final point that needs to be mentioned, Itdontmatta, Hogobojo, Squakhawk, Llir, Tythus, Telinir, Burnsider, Rilath, Zachosnacko, and all other moderators are HUMAN, Humans make mistakes and no one is perfect. We all have lives outside of LOTC and it needs to be recognized that a large majority of the time the moderators and admins are forced into a position where they are required to make rulings and choices that have the protentional to impact the entire server and they only have minutes to read over all the information and make the ruling well they are getting spammed, demands and sometimes threats from those involved. 

 

 

There's a margin of error, but then there's inappropriate conduct. Ignoring any attempts of civil negotiation from the Acre players and responding with threats of bans and 'cope & seethe' is completely and utterly inappropriate behaviour. While humans make mistakes, I think the mistake in this incident is incredibly detrimental to Acre's legitimate efforts at roleplay and they have been unapologetically boned. Furthermore, when Staff attempt to enforce a 44 v. 25 CRP - a very blatant troll - then it's hard to seriously take their efforts as made in good faith.

 

As someone whose made plenty of mistakes on Staff myself, of course, there's a margin of error, but brushing aside the irreparable damage done to Acre's status, condemning intervention - very clearly justified by precedent - as 'bad sportsmanship', and telling players to f*ck off or get banned and to 'cope and seethe' is totally not OK.

[aiden0023 1374]

Come on guys, I just wanted to resolve the first LotC conflict with a game of chess and make LotC history…