OOC Tile Auctions During War

[xMuted 2459]

Admin moment

[Rilath 3719]

tldr:

Spoiler

I didn't facilitate nor support the breaking of rules as mod admin.

 

So, first of all if you look at my DM's with Kamikaze_Reaper that were leaked, I never said that it was something that would be allowed or that I was helping it along. I specifically said that I would bring it up at the admin meeting and that if it was shot down by the team then anyone who had spent Mina on a tile would be refunded their money. I never told anyone that this was a sure thing, and when asked, I recommended interested players go through with any roleplay involved in case the decision would be to allow the selling of the tiles.

 

I've looked through both the war rules and the nation rules multiple times and haven't been able to find any instance of selling tiles during war being prohibited. It not being outlined in the rules is what prompted me to mark it down to be brought up at the next admin meeting. I even told aiden when he first asked that lived in tiles or tiles that had vassals participating in the war would be unable to be sold, so there is no worry there either.

 

I understand everyone's concerns, but most of these questions could have been answered with a private message! My DMs are always open :)

[Borin 5244]

13 minutes ago, Rilath said:

tldr:

  Reveal hidden contents

I didn't facilitate nor support the breaking of rules as mod admin.

 

So, first of all if you look at my DM's with Kamikaze_Reaper that were leaked, I never said that it was something that would be allowed or that I was helping it along. I specifically said that I would bring it up at the admin meeting and that if it was shot down by the team then anyone who had spent Mina on a tile would be refunded their money. I never told anyone that this was a sure thing, and when asked, I recommended interested players go through with any roleplay involved in case the decision would be to allow the selling of the tiles.

 

I've looked through both the war rules and the nation rules multiple times and haven't been able to find any instance of selling tiles during war being prohibited. It not being outlined in the rules is what prompted me to mark it down to be brought up at the next admin meeting. I even told aiden when he first asked that lived in tiles or tiles that had vassals participating in the war would be unable to be sold, so there is no worry there either.

 

I understand everyone's concerns, but most of these questions could have been answered with a private message! My DMs are always open :)

You're stating that because of the absence of rules it's okay, but then with other things you've previously stated that you're going to disallow something not because it's in the rules, but because it's against the 'spirit of the rules'.

 

Is having an anonymous OOC auction of tiles to change PROs etc during a civil war warclaim, presumably from what we know, to fund either the war or them fleeing elsewhere after the war, not completely against the 'spirit of the rules'?

 

(Thank you for the quick response and the transparency you're offering)

[Nord2 17]

Good news guys, it's been RPed out.

[Ryanark 1924]

11 minutes ago, Rilath said:

-snip-

 

I appreciate this response, this cleared much of my concerns up. 

[Borin 5244]

7 minutes ago, Nord2 said:

Good news guys, it's been RPed out.

If this is true, and I hope it is, I hope it was done properly.. if so, this has *partly* addressed some of my concern.

[Rilath 3719]

9 minutes ago, Borin said:

You're stating that because of the absence of rules it's okay, but then with other things you've previously stated that you're going to disallow something not because it's in the rules, but because it's against the 'spirit of the rules'.

 

Is having an anonymous OOC auction of tiles to change PROs etc during a civil war warclaim, presumably from what we know, to fund either the war or them fleeing elsewhere after the war, not completely against the 'spirit of the rules'?

I'm not sure where you're seeing that I said it was okay? I've said clearly to multiple parties privately and in this thread that it would be brought up for admins to discuss at the next meeting.

 

And regarding the 'spirit of the rules' that I mentioned in our talks, it's in the second bullet of the War Overview tab in the war rules. It also mentions specifically that loopholing what is written is prohibited. I recall most of the questions I was getting where that was my answer was in response to foreign volunteers which is also against the rules. Internal wars by the spirit of the rules are meant to be internal! I view having people that live and RP in other nations up until war breaks out and then moving to Acre so that they can be counted as citizens for the war as a form of loopholing.

[Hermit_Jack 513]

I bid $120USD, all OOC, no questions asked. Must also be anonymous. Thanks.

[Borin 5244]

43 minutes ago, Rilath said:

I'm not sure where you're seeing that I said it was okay? I've said clearly to multiple parties privately and in this thread that it would be brought up for admins to discuss at the next meeting.

 

And regarding the 'spirit of the rules' that I mentioned in our talks, it's in the second bullet of the War Overview tab in the war rules. It also mentions specifically that loopholing what is written is prohibited. I recall most of the questions I was getting where that was my answer was in response to foreign volunteers which is also against the rules. Internal wars by the spirit of the rules are meant to be internal! I view having people that live and RP in other nations up until war breaks out and then moving to Acre so that they can be counted as citizens for the war as a form of loopholing.

 

If you're not condoning this and it's going to be discussed among the admins that's fine and I apologise for misinterpreting you.

I don't retract my view that the sale of tiles, both internally and outside the nation both OOC and IRP during a civil war shouldn't be allowed, whether in the rules or not, as the tiles should be frozen, the same as the Acre tile was 'frozen' originally when the staff thought the war was begun after that original raid, the same as Hnor was frozen, etc.

 

And as a disclaimer, no, our discussion on spirit of the rules was regarding those who were on different Oren tiles, not ours.

[GoodGuyMatt 7060]

1 hour ago, Nord2 said:

Good news guys, it's been RPed out.

 

To be honest just by saying "Oh we actually did the RP dude, we sat down 10 minutes and agreed irply" is just as bad as not having done that at all. It seems like the original scheme was done purely OOCly and people were being contacted so. From what I know this was one in the span of 2 days. Now normally if you were to try and pull a scheme this big correctly through RP it'd:
1. Take you wayyy longer to actually make up all the arrangements, talk to people etc.

2. Those people who you'd talk to would be aware of the scheme IRPly and thus be able to react to it IRPly (now they can't because they've already been talked to OOCly)

3. The scheme would've been able to be figured out IRPly.

 

Just doing everything OOC at first and then going like "oh yea dude we did the RP for it it's chill" is equally as bad as just doing pure discord politics. Not only are you hindering the RP process but you're getting a head start on it. Not to mention that if this behavior is allowed and precedent is set that people can just do like 10 minutes of RP to support a days of Discord RPing, then I'll let you imagine the numerous ways it can be abused in order to let OOC fuse with RP (LOTC preaches that these 2 should remain separate)

[Franczhiz 4053]

OOC selling of tiles to avoid some actual GOOD rp during a conflict (which we didn't have a in a while) is just an idiotic way to escape RP pressure. Clearly a RP server isn't made for someone willing to capitulate through the OOC means of selling tiles in order to resort to a whole Discord RP negotiation.

 

(it wouldnt be the first time either for this to happen btw)

 

Expected some fun RP scenarios for this to happen but I guess we can name the server "The Lord of The Discord" since this is just a cycle that will never end when we speak of a nation that is as big as Oren.

[Buffsanta 960]

I sell my provinces in eu4 all the time to fund the war Im loosing 

I just suck at the game but selling provinces in times of war was never irregular in history. If its done irply Im all for it

[Gnomeh 193]

LOTC is now a discord RP server if you didnt know.

[Frymark 2791]

40 minutes ago, Buffsanta said:

I sell my provinces in eu4 all the time to fund the war Im loosing 

I just suck at the game but selling provinces in times of war was never irregular in history. If its done irply Im all for it

You know you cant be in a war to sell provinces in eu4, right?

[Xarkly 12580]

9 hours ago, Rilath said:

tldr:

  Reveal hidden contents

I didn't facilitate nor support the breaking of rules as mod admin.

 

So, first of all if you look at my DM's with Kamikaze_Reaper that were leaked, I never said that it was something that would be allowed or that I was helping it along. I specifically said that I would bring it up at the admin meeting and that if it was shot down by the team then anyone who had spent Mina on a tile would be refunded their money. I never told anyone that this was a sure thing, and when asked, I recommended interested players go through with any roleplay involved in case the decision would be to allow the selling of the tiles.

 

It's great to hear this clarification, but I think what had most people up in arms was the indication that you, as Mod Admin, did not see a problem with selling off contested territory in war-time. While it was clearly deferred to an Admin meeting, I think it's understandable that people would be very concerned for the Mod Admin to say "I don't see it getting shot down", which is what compelled the Acre players to take their concerns public like this. 

 

9 hours ago, Rilath said:

I've looked through both the war rules and the nation rules multiple times and haven't been able to find any instance of selling tiles during war being prohibited. It not being outlined in the rules is what prompted me to mark it down to be brought up at the next admin meeting. I even told aiden when he first asked that lived in tiles or tiles that had vassals participating in the war would be unable to be sold, so there is no worry there either.

 

As we've all noticed, rules like Internal Conflicts are very sparse on detail, leaving a lot to be inferred based on the spirit of the rules rather than their text (or lack thereof). This is, after all, the basis on which the Moderation Team ruled on some the recent stuff in the war, such as removing participants from raids based on their lack of involvement in the wider conflict even though this isn't mentioned anywhere in the rules. In the same vein, a prohibition on selling tiles is not only clearly within the spirit of the rules to prevent a losing side from completely nullify the effect of the warclaim, but it's also a fairly established precedent of something you cannot do on this server. The Krugmar/Oren/Haelun'or situation is the most recent example of this, and this has been a relatively steadfast policy for Staff post-Johannesburg.

3 hours ago, Buffsanta said:

I sell my provinces in eu4 all the time to fund the war Im loosing 

I just suck at the game but selling provinces in times of war was never irregular in history. If its done irply Im all for it

 

If done at all it completely undermines most of the war rules irreparably. Consider this:
 

• Nation X warclaims a tile of Nation Y.
• Because they own 13 tiles, Nation X has to pay 19,500 mina as a base cost to declare war, before they pay any additional costs such as allies or siege equipment (so the total cost, depending on ally locations, could be upwards of 30,000). Tldr, it's an incredible amount of money for a nation to invest. (Note, most nations don't make more than 1,000 a week in tax)
• Nation X fights the war, and through pure martial prowess or diplomacy that secures them more allies, they rightfully gain the upper-hand and are headed towards victory.
• Nation Y, fearing defeat, sells off the targetted tile to another nation.
• Nation X's 20,000+ mina investment, but also all their roleplay investment, is completely and utterly thrown down the drain.
• "Well we'll refund the mina" isn't really a sufficient excuse either, because Nation X has still probably spent 2+ weeks fighting, much longer planning, and have taken a diplomatic gamble to declare any war.

 

Staff have historically recognised the above as a terrible system, and it should stay that way. There shouldn't be an easy way out of warclaims, at least when you have such high costs in the current rules.