Map Roads and Desire Pathing

[Anore 2006]

Roads are a big hot topic on each map for many reasons. They can make or break a new players experience and can help or hurt the ease at which nations interact with each other. On this map the roads were very disjointed and were primarily used to get players from the hubs to the current nations, they did not lend themselves to inter-community travel and resulted in the map feeling bigger and more frustrating to traverse than intended. Taking a look back and the last three maps and their initial roads in red and the additional roads that were added later in yellow, what were some things that were done well? What flopped.

 

Atlas

Spoiler

Arcas

Spoiler

Almaris

Spoiler

 

What were some things that worked or didn't work on past maps? Increased speed on roads? Staff Built Roads? Freedom for Players to build their own Roads?

 

How do you think maps should be done on the next map? Should the roads be placed prior to settlements choosing locations on the map or should roads be laid down after settlements are placed? Do we want a single stagnant road system or one that adapts with the changes on the map. It begs the question can any road system at the start of the map be perfect? In many ways the roads are either great at the start of the map but bad at the end of the map, or they aren't great at the beginning of the map and players need to bug staff to fix it or do it themselves.

 

I think an interesting concept to bring up is that of desire pathing.  You can read more about that HERE. But the general concept of it is no matter where the roads are, people will general find the best path on their own. Some universities and city planners in the past have adapted to this and laid down paths based on what users found most efficient.

 

 

I think we can apply this to next map in a way that allows players to find the best path as they will, and even if the map launches with a set road in mind, it can and should change with the time and any speed bonuses should come with it. At the end of the day, we don't want taking the roads to be a burden, many players want to travel around the map and see the world, but more importantly players are just trying to get where the roleplay is. The road system should cater to that. 

 

What do you think?

[MailC3p 1159]

I have literally 0 knowledge on this and my input should not be taken seriously but i really liked  the Arcas Ringroad, perhaps next mape we can have 1 or 2 of those with intertangled roads.

[Laeonathan 3953]

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How do you think maps should be done on the next map? Should the roads be placed prior to settlements choosing locations on the map or should roads be laid down after settlements are placed?

After the settlements are placed.

 

I don't really have to add more. For me non of these three maps really were that much different, though I enjoyed the Almaris ones that most. But I'm the most biased person here considering I made probably half of them.

 

 

Quote

I have literally 0 knowledge on this and my input should not be taken seriously but i really liked  the Arcas Ringroad, perhaps next mape we can have 1 or 2 of those with intertangled roads.

I think it's quite intersting how many people actually liked them. In the last maps feedback post everyone hated on them like there's no tomorrow, hence the idea was removed.

[LithiumSedai 4837]

Just a note: one of the central Atlas roads leading to Carolustadt was actually player-made, and laid out late in the map:

 

 

With that being said, there certainly is a conclusion to be drawn from the screenshots - it's a shame that so many places were all but inaccessible from anywhere but the hubs early in this map...

[Xarkly 12608]

This doesn't really feel like a question we can answer with this little information, like where CT is (please do not do hubs).

 

Do not delay any important roads till post-launch: whenever Map Dev have delayed anything till post-launch, it almost always takes x10 times as long.

 

Edit: I believe Staff have made roads for any settlements upon request anyway. I'm really confused what this post is actually asking for thoughts on.

[warlord of filth 7714]

im circle road pilled, CT directly in the middle of the map on a mountain ala throat of the world from skyrim

 

with that, a roundabout 'kings' road type going around the entire map with branches inward and outward leading to settlements and stuff

 

((it doesnt have to be a perfect circle, but round in nature))

 

i didnt play on atlas or arcas but arcas' design looks p solid in terms of what id be looking for

 

also next map dont split into two continents its a horrible idea that makes the map appear a lot bigger than it is, and separates players needlessly 

[ItsMyWorld66 164]

The problem I'm finding with this map, is that more roads are being added on top of the central roads.

 

The issue is that the main cities that were once the points of Rp are being left behind, because they were situated so far back at the corners of the maps. This allowed smaller settlements to throw themselves, sometimes smack dab, in the middle of the roads leading to these cities.

 

There are places where the "Main Road" passes through a settlement, which I think was something that should not have been allowed. Especially since most of the time there's a gate and it halts ability to go to the cities and causes activity in those cities to fall dramatically.

 

Personally I like the idea of a main almost circular road that has splinters off of it, leading to different cities or settlements that connect to this highway. That way, a settlement or city cannot actively block another.

[Elfen_ 232]

Road need to be easy to follow and understand. A lot of the times, I start to have issues with roads when they branch off at weird places or end up going up large hills/mountains. 

I think that CT being center of map is the best and avoid the need for additional hubs since all roads led to Rome.

I do wonder rather than a circle, its more a spiderweb type of design.(Dunno just a random thought).

I  think circles have great potential if done right. From what I heard the issue with the circle was no one could build in the circle so anyone to far out from it, was out of luck. Perhaps work on that kink and see what can be done.

I think best road is Aegis though.
 

[monkeypoacher 6993]

Arcas's system was probably the most enlightened in retrospect. But it had flaws, and other than not repeating obvious mistakes (the hub system of this map or the 10,000 mile spawn to capital trek of Atlas) there's no plan out a transit system that fits every arbitrary decision players are going to make when the map is released. We're going to have to see how players traverse the map and build to accommodate that traversal. 

 

IMO there should be a system next map where players can request permission to build on unclaimed territory for general improvements (roads, bridges, mines, fish weirs, etc.,) and temporary structures (camps) without needing to pay for the privilege. There are always regions of the map which are unclaimed by nations and so remain completely undeveloped, even though there would be realistic roleplay incentives to do so. This makes the map disconnected and awkward-feeling. 

 

Also for the love of god let people build roads. Let people build on roads, let people build near roads, let people block roads with checkpoints, etc., the WT no-building-on-roads fatwā is a cancer on the landscape. There is Descendant civilization and then there are metastatic veins of Cloud Temple which senselessly carve their way through that civilization. 

[argonian 12837]

5 minutes ago, monkeypoacher said:

Arcas's system was probably the most enlightened in retrospect. But it had flaws, and other than not repeating obvious mistakes (the hub system of this map or the 10,000 mile spawn to capital trek of Atlas) there's no plan out a transit system that fits every arbitrary decision players are going to make when the map is released. We're going to have to see how players traverse the map and build to accommodate that traversal. 

 

IMO there should be a system next map where players can request permission to build on unclaimed territory for general improvements (roads, bridges, mines, fish weirs, etc.,) and temporary structures (camps) without needing to pay for the privilege. There are always regions of the map which are unclaimed by nations and so remain completely undeveloped, even though there would be realistic roleplay incentives to do so. This makes the map disconnected and awkward-feeling. 

 

Also for the love of god let people build roads. Let people build on roads, let people build near roads, let people block roads with checkpoints, etc., the WT no-building-on-roads fatwā is a cancer on the landscape. There is Descendant civilization and then there are metastatic veins of Cloud Temple which senselessly carve their way through that civilization. 

I don't think people talk about how annoying and ugly it is for countries to be divided by CT/Hub regions, or to get spammed by ((NO VILLAINY HERE PUH-LEASE)) messages constantly. 

 

Arcas may not have had hubs but it more than made up for it by making the CT comprise half the map.

 

Can we just stop having cancerous CTs? Like in the literal sense, in that it serves as some overgrown ******* tumour on the map.

[monkeypoacher 6993]

13 minutes ago, argonian said:

I don't think people talk about how annoying and ugly it is for countries to be divided by CT/Hub regions, or to get spammed by ((NO VILLAINY HERE PUH-LEASE)) messages constantly. 

 

Arcas may not have had hubs but it more than made up for it by making the CT comprise half the map.

 

Can we just stop having cancerous CTs? Like in the literal sense, in that it serves as some overgrown ******* tumour on the map.

 

The whole conceit of Arcas was that it was supposed to be perfectly fair. The circle is the most equitable shape; everyone gets to be equidistant from the center. Then the world devs put a giant fuckoff mountain range between spawn and Fenn, defeating the entire purpose because lololol

 

I genuinely hope they just kill the Cloud Temple (or put it in the actual clouds and have people jump off of it to get to the actual map) because it's such an incredible waste of space. The Order doesn't even exist anymore. It's just a landmark that we put in new maps because there's no other sign of continuity.

[argonian 12837]

3 minutes ago, monkeypoacher said:

 

The whole conceit of Arcas was that it was supposed to be perfectly fair. The circle is the most equitable shape; every nation gets to be equidistant from the center. Then the world devs put a giant fuckoff mountain range between spawn and Fenn because lololol

 

I genuinely hope they just kill the Cloud Temple entirely (or put it in the actual clouds and have people jump off of it to get to the actual map) because it's such an incredible waste of space. The Order doesn't even exist anymore. It's just a landmark that we put in new maps because there's no other sign of continuity.

Been hearing this idea a lot lately and I think it'd be based. My one issue with it is idk if vertically limited worldguard regions are possible. If they are though, that'd be so insanely based. If not, **** it put it in the Nether or something but have the build hide the fact, so it just looks like you're in a crypt somewhere.

 

Anything to stop CT tumours clawing their way through the map.

[NotEvilAtAll 9927]

11 minutes ago, argonian said:

idk if vertically limited worldguard regions are possible

They are.

 

Source: ran into problems with a region's y-level not going all the way down to bedrock when helping a friend with underground build stuff. had to modreq for the region to be changed.

[SmartScout 241]

I personally lean towards the system from maps like Atlas, Athera, and Anthos, since it feel most natural when you have a series of interconnected main roads with settlements sprinkled about, and smaller roads building naturally. I understand that some people don't like the lengths of travel to, say, Fenn or Sutica in Atlas, but I personally don't mind, and think the fact that there was a fair bit of interesting things to see on the roads and people travelling on them meant interesting RP interactions from time to time. Arcas's design was also fine. I personally think the ring shape with near equidistance was a bit too convenient to seem natural, but it was certainly alright, and is probably a bit more fair, if that's the concern. 

 

The big thing I personally hate is the disjointed, disconnected, fast travel reliant systems like we had on Axios, Vailor, and most of all Almaris. I personally love running around on roads, and having roads that stretch across continents to travel places makes sense. It doesn't make sense to have random gates in a weird area isolated from everything else to travel places. It doesn't make sense to have a bunch of roads that don't connect, and that the only roads that connect some of the different hubs were built later. Things should be made around roads that connect from the start. If you want to have carts to fast travel to places, that's fine, as long as there is still a way for those of us who want to walk. At least in Vailor and Axios having the carts along roads, or having boats to go between islands, made sense. Almaris is just very immersion breaking and odd, at least to me.

 

So, here's my suggestion:

 

- A road system that is interconnecting and natural with the shape of the continent, like seen on Atlas or Anthos (though something like Arcas or Athera where things are more concentrated in one area with outlying lands is fine too, though it is a bit less sensible and a bit of a waste of space, imo)

 

- Carts or boats (depending on what makes sense) allow fast travel on a timer between two locations. For example, like the carts in Vailor and Axios that went from the port/CT point of entry on an island to the other settlements along the roads. All places on the same island/continent are fully accessible by roads, but carts/boats are there for convenience to get further along those roads, to areas where nations tend to be. For example, in Atlas, imagine if there was a cart going south to somewhere like the town at the crossroads (I forget the name), one going north to some sensible point (I can't remember one as clear as there), and maybe a third to the deep south (though even getting to the crossroads I am thinking of would probably have cut journeys to Fenn/Sutica/Last Hope from 20 or 30 minutes to 10 or 15).

 

- Along with these free staff made carts/boats to hubs/crossroads further along the roads to save time, which are always free of charge, have the ability for nations to pay for carts/boats with a small fee attached to each trip (probably somewhere in the realm of .5 mina to 2 mina). This would add a third way of convenience, where people could pay for a bit of expediency and added safety when travelling between nations who agree to have carts between them (such as two allies with geographical distance), or they could save the money and add the potential for interesting RP by travelling by the roads (with or without the free carts' help). That way everyone should be happy, the ones who want expediency and safety, and the ones who want long journeys, road rp, and immersion.

 

- All of this is in addition to soulstones, which should allow people to travel to the one or two places they frequent the most directly, which is often enough for most people, especially with the systems above for other trips.

 

- Finally, on speed buffs on roads. I think they are nice. Have them on main roads, which will initially be spread throughout the map, and can be expanded by staff or by nations as needed as the map progresses. Player made roads (such as small ones to vassals or through the backcountries and mountains) don't need them, but there should be options for settlements and nations to get speed on roads down the line if they are willing to pay for it. Also, maybe unused main roads (ones to a dead/dying settlement that may have fallen into disrepair) could be somewhat ruin-ified by build team in a sensible way, and loose their speed buff.

 

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I think changes like these would provide the server with the best balance of interesting travel experiences, natural immersion, land utilization, and expedient options. I've been around the server since Athera, and have played on every map since then. They've all had strengths and weaknesses. One of my biggest pet peeves is disjointed and unnatural travel methods. In order for a world to feel lived in, travel needs to make sense. I should be able to get on a road and get to all the settlements on whatever landmass I'm on. If there's islands, boats are alright and make sense to get out to those. Otherwise, however, everything should be able to be walked to for the sake of immersions, and the roads should be built to fit the land and the needs of the civilization built on the continent. Though also, in turn, civilization should build around roads. Having RP hubs grow in small towns or taverns or libraries along an busy road or at a crossroad makes sense. Just like rivers and coast lead to bustling port towns or mountains to great dwarven cities and small mountain hamlets or the like, roads should, over the course of the map, lead to the development of these taverns, libraries, stores, markets, hamlets, and towns along them, where people naturally congregate to RP as they pass through on their journeys. The best map at doing this that I played on was Athera. There were little roadside taverns and hangouts dotting the main road, and usually you could stop in and find a couple people there. Things like that were amazing for immersion, and should be allowed and encouraged to promote RP. The stagnation of nations, settlements, roads, etc on this map has been part of what has been making me loose interest in the server as a whole recently - things aren't as dynamic as they used to be, and, even if allowing things to be dynamic and more led by the players has its issues, it is far better than letting things stagnate by forcing things to work with cumbersome OOC systems rather than working with RP and how things develop to build out sensible things in service of what the players create.

 

Sorry my post is so long, it is just a topic I feel strongly about, since I think the road situation is something that has helped lead to the overall stagnation and other negative changes on the server. Thanks for your time!

 

TL:DR:

 

Atlas/Anthos/Athera style, natural road system branching throughout the continent with speed buffs, with fast travel through staff provided free carts/boats to important and sensible hubs (ala Vailor and Axios), nation-negotiated paid carts/boats between nations who agree to have them (like what we've had this map). Nations can pick where spread around the map they want to be, and the roads will be built both to branch and cater to the landscape, and to cater to these nations. After the play is started, players have a way to build/get staff to put in side roads, which can be updated to main (speed buffed) roads for a fee. Unused/less used main roads can become run down and fall into disrepair, and thus loose their speed buff. New small settlements or standalone taverns, libraries, and stores will be allowed and encouraged around the roads to promote player-driven rp, which will in turn lead to more people travelling along the roads to see what is happening in these small hubs players make, which should hopefully lead to the more dynamic atmosphere we saw in maps like Athera or Atlas that had these small, roadside establishments and hamlets about.

Edited August 27, 2022 by SmartScout