[Your View] Systems Update - Resources, Travel, and Tiles

[Borin 5232]

nevermind I've decided to push for resource pits harder

there is no reason to make collecting building mats more complicated than 'go to CT go to pit and break shit with pickaxe, shovel or axe, come home, repeat'

 

I do not want to go to different places to get different shit. I do not believe new players or like, anyone at all sane wants to make their lives more complicated or drawn out when it comes to getting blocks to build places to roleplay at.

 

There will not be pastes. There will not be LC. It is far nicer to have a resource pit to dig out of than left clicking a random huddle of purple sparkly shit. It is far more satisfying and nicer to use a resource pit whilst listening to some music and vibing than it is to get pickaxe and spam click some blocks, then spam clicking those blocks again, then spam clicking those blocks again...

[monkeypoacher 6993]

Please just get rid of "mechanics" (tiles, vortex nodes, fast travels, et cetera) if they cannot easily be interacted with via Minecraft mechanics/plugins or role-play. The formula of "it's just Minecraft but you roleplay a character" is really good. Minecraft itself is a great roleplay platform. Adding unnecessary MMORPG / strategy gaming complications does not improve anything by default. Those complications ruin roleplay when you have to spend OOC time asking staff to help you with them. A good "systems"/"mechanics" update would be to make all of the LoTC stuff - nations, tile & region management, warclaims, etc. feel fully automatic - they can flow directly from roleplay with the click of a menu option or the syntax of a command.

 

See, nobody likes playing Calvinball with the staff, it's the #1 role-play killer. But this is exactly what wars and building are like now. You have to ask someone in the phone tree to do anything - and when you think you know how something simple works, and you've read the rules, you get deflected with an "ackshually rule Y was changed in modmag Z so now you can't do A-W. sorry." Basic server rules receive ******* League of Legends balance updates and it creates a messy, chaotic, and unfulfilling system for everyone. 

 

This map was shipped with an entire bill of promises for a fully fleshed-out resource / economy and war system. It's been two years and no one has been able to so much as agree for rules on how these "systems" might be implemented in the future. "Systems" like tile improvements, which were supposed to be a basic menu of stuff you could buy from the World Team to make your land better, but fell apart when the guy who was This has completely hamstrung any semblance of an economy and made everyone reliant on staff pasting in builds to so much as build a house. This isn't even touching on war, which is such an absurd hodgepodge of compromises, precedents, and overcomplicated 1000 IQ grand strategy mechanics that people barely even bother with it!

 

We've done this before. If a game mechanic you're thinking of is really cool, but requires a dedicated staff member to oversee it indefinitely, it's going to break when that staff member goes back to school, gets sick, gets in a fight with another staff member, gets bored of the game, or whatever. The golden rule should be don't make work for people in the future, and if you do, make it as easy as possible - simple, with abundant documentation.

 

Tiles are incompatible with Minecraft broadly and the idea of a role-play server specifically. The entire idea of Minecraft is that you punch trees and mine ore and set pigs on fire to get stuff you need to explore the world. When you lock people out of touching 99% of the map, and break that gameplay loop, it gets confusing for people. Tiles are also impossible for the average player to interact with either through mechanics or role-play (there isn't even an easy "join this nation" or "join this tile" option if you want to build somewhere!) and part of me suspects they were insidiously designed this way.

 

And by that I mean tiles are literally the dictates of oppressive, tyrannical warlords and unaccountable feudal nobility writ into gameplay- How the hell did we decide that this was a good way to make the game work? Help???? Please for the love of god can you make it remotely tolerable to play a peasant, an artisan, literally ANYTHING but Horen/Carrion cadet #8178471 or Horen/Carrion cadet's personal valet/bannerman. I used to be a big fan of medieval/early modern European history and costume dramas and part of me wonders if I died back then and this server is my eternal ironic punishment

 

This is a bug -- Tythus Ltd. pls fix. The mechanics and the design language of LoTC subtly pervert new and old players into reinforcing the same tired hierarchy and repeating the same kinds of tired political plotlines over and over, without awareness, just eternally rolling a boulder up the hill of the Orenian Empire/Kingdom of Gladewynn/Westerlands/Vanderguan . 

 

TL;DR get this civcraft shit out of my premium roleplay server. Also I am losing it THIS IS A CRY FOR HELP
Thanks for reading.

 

 

[rukio 8909]

I see

>We're not bringing pits back, its archaic

 

I stop reading because I know the rest of the necessary things to make the next map decent will not happen and quality will continue to degrade. 

[Enlightenment 1452]

2 hours ago, Kornazkarumm said:

Just bring back the ******* pits jesus ******* christ

this

[monkeypoacher 6993]

4 hours ago, Orlanth said:

 A: Planet side 2 style. Hexagons that roughly conform to map shape. Tiles should be made of the same count of hexagons to ensure relatively equal size.

 

i'm going to have a stroke

[Turbo_Dog 1404]

I do agree that the roads should have speed.

[Areon 770]

I would love to see the tile/land/war system focus around resources instead of arbitrary things and the straight desire to just raze cities into ruins. Resource wars make much better wargoals when treaties are being designed and could have a really cool effect on the upkeep/activity/node system.

[chaotikal 2236]

bring back freebuild

[Fishy 1578]

Building Blocks

Q: Do you think there should be just one set of each building block or node? Or multiple? How would you scatter them throughout the world?

Multiple, normal/basic building block nodes should be naturally abundant in the world and thus able to be sourced at a variety of locations. Different wood types should only be found at different climates/regions but still plentiful in their locales. As materials get more niche, there should be a decline in the amount of nodes they have. A block such as Endstone perhaps only has 2-4 nodes on the entire map but there should still be stacks to gather at each node.
I would distribute nodes throughout the world by assigning each to a different tile. Basalt could only be found in a, or formerly, volcanic tile so perhaps only 3 nodes exist spread out in the world.  

 

Q: Would you want to see different numbers on these building blocks? In yield or in harvesting time?

Yields for nodes as they are are very poor. I’d like to see a major increase, at least a stack for fully harvesting a node. Perhaps better tools, such as iron over stone, could be used to also boost yield.

 

Q: Would you prefer a system where you physically break the block rather than right clicking it?

Right-clicking is better but it matters little.

 

Q: Do you think there should be a distinction between Niche and Common blocks?

Yes, I’d even go so far as to say that resources such as iron, coal, gold, copper (when it's introduced in the update), redstone, lapis, emerald, and diamond should be separated from each other. There should be no such thing as a generic mine, rather specific mines for each resource with their own levels of rarity in the world. Iron should be plentiful as it is universally used, and realistically can be sourced from a variety of things, even bog water, so let’s say 10 or more iron mines. Gold on the other hand is niche being used for either RP or ornamental purposes and should be quite rare, perhaps only 2 or 3 gold mines exist on the entire map.

 

Q: Would you like to see a system, perhaps expensive tools paid for with mina, that increase your yield when gathering?

Not for mina, any tools players use should be craftable by players. Iron tools should give 3x yields on a node.

 

CT and Travel

Q: Would you like to see more Soulstone slots? What are possible benefits / consequences?

I’d like to see no Soulstone slots. 😎
The Soulstone mechanic is far too convenient and de-emphasizes the world. There is nothing I hate more than hearing 'Alright, everyone soulstone home' at the end of a group outing. Unfortunately I seem to be a fringe minority with that opinion.

 

Q: Would you like to see the return of the Greater Soulstone for purchase from Cloud Temple? What difference should it have?

I don’t even recall what that was.

 

Q: Would you like to see a road placed before nations, or a road placed between nations shortly before launch? Why?

Roads placed between nations before launch. Putting roads before nations is cart before the horse, roads exist to help facilitate travel between nations and guide players between them.

 

Q: Should there be a speed boost on the main roads?

Not against it, but the last implementation was rather clunky and caused a heap of issues by not allowing landowners to manipulate their roads and the surrounding land. Perhaps use a ‘Traveling Boots’ item instead that allows players to move faster on road materials.

 

Q: Do you foresee any issues with the removal of hubs and reliance on beacons/pillars?

I’d worry that communities could become too insular and the rest of the world ignored if SS pillars become the standard of travel. This issue is not that far off from what we have now.

 

Tiles

Q: Should tiles be uniform in shape or arbitrarily drawn by hand (roughly following geographical features etc.) such as how they are on 8.0 (current)?

Arbitrated all the way. The current tile map isn’t perfect and I could list a thousand things wrong with the Heartland’s tiles but the system remains the best. Tiles should correspond more to their geography, rivers and mountains splitting them up. Ideally a stronger emphasis on a tile being a single biome as well. The Arentanian Mountains, the ones west of East Fleet, are split into fragments with wildly different proportions for no good reason when in reality the mountain range should be two tiles at most.  I’d like to see mountains be real dividers of territories by being unclaimable and having their hinterlands parceled out into surrounding tiles. Making mountains, their summits and ridges, unclaimable could also go a long way toward map preservation by leaving areas as wilderness and unbesmirched by ISA space ships or dwarven cake forts.

 

Q: If they were uniform, which of the following would be preferred?

Squares because the implementation is far easier than other systems.

 

Q: If they are not uniform or arbitrary, how else would you like to see them?

Based on geography/biome.

 

Q: What kind of tile upgrades would you like to see possible?

I think resources should be intrinsic to a tile, if you’re already shelling out 10k minas to purchase a tile, you shouldn’t need to spend more minas to develop it further.

 

[Borin 5232]

1 hour ago, Fishy said:

Building Blocks

Q: Do you think there should be just one set of each building block or node? Or multiple? How would you scatter them throughout the world?

Multiple, normal/basic building block nodes should be naturally abundant in the world and thus able to be sourced at a variety of locations. Different wood types should only be found at different climates/regions but still plentiful in their locales. As materials get more niche, there should be a decline in the amount of nodes they have. A block such as Endstone perhaps only has 2-4 nodes on the entire map but there should still be stacks to gather at each node.
I would distribute nodes throughout the world by assigning each to a different tile. Basalt could only be found in a, or formerly, volcanic tile so perhaps only 3 nodes exist spread out in the world.  

 

Q: Would you want to see different numbers on these building blocks? In yield or in harvesting time?

Yields for nodes as they are are very poor. I’d like to see a major increase, at least a stack for fully harvesting a node. Perhaps better tools, such as iron over stone, could be used to also boost yield.

 

Q: Do you think there should be a distinction between Niche and Common blocks?

Yes, I’d even go so far as to say that resources such as iron, coal, gold, copper (when it's introduced in the update), redstone, lapis, emerald, and diamond should be separated from each other. There should be no such thing as a generic mine, rather specific mines for each resource with their own levels of rarity in the world. Iron should be plentiful as it is universally used, and realistically can be sourced from a variety of things, even bog water, so let’s say 10 or more iron mines. Gold on the other hand is niche being used for either RP or ornamental purposes and should be quite rare, perhaps only 2 or 3 gold mines exist on the entire map.

 

Q: Would you like to see a system, perhaps expensive tools paid for with mina, that increase your yield when gathering?

Not for mina, any tools players use should be craftable by players. Iron tools should give 3x yields on a node.

 

CT and Travel

Q: Would you like to see more Soulstone slots? What are possible benefits / consequences?

I’d like to see no Soulstone slots. <img src=">
The Soulstone mechanic is far too convenient and de-emphasizes the world. There is nothing I hate more than hearing 'Alright, everyone soulstone home' at the end of a group outing. Unfortunately I seem to be a fringe minority with that opinion.

 

Q: Would you like to see the return of the Greater Soulstone for purchase from Cloud Temple? What difference should it have?

I don’t even recall what that was.

 

Q: Would you like to see a road placed before nations, or a road placed between nations shortly before launch? Why?

Roads placed between nations before launch. Putting roads before nations is cart before the horse, roads exist to help facilitate travel between nations and guide players between them.

 

Q: Should there be a speed boost on the main roads?

Not against it, but the last implementation was rather clunky and caused a heap of issues by not allowing landowners to manipulate their roads and the surrounding land. Perhaps use a ‘Traveling Boots’ item instead that allows players to move faster on road materials.

 

Q: Do you foresee any issues with the removal of hubs and reliance on beacons/pillars?

I’d worry that communities could become too insular and the rest of the world ignored if SS pillars become the standard of travel. This issue is not that far off from what we have now.

 

Tiles

Q: Should tiles be uniform in shape or arbitrarily drawn by hand (roughly following geographical features etc.) such as how they are on 8.0 (current)?

Arbitrated all the way. The current tile map isn’t perfect and I could list a thousand things wrong with the Heartland’s tiles but the system remains the best. Tiles should correspond more to their geography, rivers and mountains splitting them up. Ideally a stronger emphasis on a tile being a single biome as well. The Arentanian Mountains, the ones west of East Fleet, are split into fragments with wildly different proportions for no good reason when in reality the mountain range should be two tiles at most.  I’d like to see mountains be real dividers of territories by being unclaimable and having their hinterlands parceled out into surrounding tiles. Making mountains, their summits and ridges, unclaimable could also go a long way toward map preservation by leaving areas as wilderness and unbesmirched by ISA space ships or dwarven cake forts.

 

Q: If they were uniform, which of the following would be preferred?

Squares because the implementation is far easier than other systems.

 

Q: If they are not uniform or arbitrary, how else would you like to see them?

Based on geography/biome.

 

Q: What kind of tile upgrades would you like to see possible?

I think resources should be intrinsic to a tile, if you’re already shelling out 10k minas to purchase a tile, you shouldn’t need to spend more minas to develop it further.

 

I agree with everything here apart from the deleted evil view that right clicking is better than breaking blocks

I mostly believe in fishy

[Fishy 1578]

10 minutes ago, Borin said:

I agree with everything here apart from the deleted evil view that right clicking is better than breaking blocks

I mostly believe in fishy

I lost a lot of good mice to left clicking to break blocks.

[Panashea 2644]

On 12/23/2022 at 5:03 PM, Mio said:

- A Building Block node will regenerate every fifteen seconds, having a yield of one.

- There will be sixteen of these nodes spread out through a localized area, harvestable on the player side.

- Roughly within one minute you will be able to obtain a stack of Building Block(s). 

 

 Greatly increase the amount from one to five or ten.  Basic materials like wood,stonebrick, etc, all have expensive crafting recipes. If you want to incentivize trade then people should be able to make complex recipes without feeling like losing the ability to quickly farm materials. It will be a nightmare to do anything with stairs or slabs.

 

On 12/23/2022 at 5:03 PM, Mio said:

Q: Do you think there should be just one set of each building block or node? Or multiple? How would you scatter them throughout the world?

Q: Would you want to see different numbers on these building blocks? In yield or in harvesting time?

Q: Would you prefer a system where you physically break the block rather than right clicking it?

Q: Do you think there should be a distinction between Niche and Common blocks? 

Q: Would you like to see a system, perhaps expensive tools paid for with mina, that increase your yield when gathering?

 

 

Make as many nodes as possible without crowding them on the map, use warps if you have to. The orc tile is covered in old nodes that don't work, and few that do. Abstracting the process of collecting resources doesn't make anyone want to trade anymore unless there's something to put money towards  something lasting (LC,pastes, more resource nodes, nexus, etc).  Its inevitable that people will eventually begin to paste things in as the map goes on, and eventually nations and settlement builds will be pasted in on 9.0.

 

It would be cool if harvesting was something more roleplay involved, I.e something like the ST nodes but player-run, establishing mines, forges, and other kinds of businesses that depend on resources but gain some tangible benefit from interacting with the resource nodes. Rn beyond ST resources no one has a pressing need for money or materials, and most profession roleplay (what little is left from nexus), completely ignores these issues.  If you want people to have trade, resource, rp, and economy, then making resources scarce will just lead to people pasting resources or mining them from the various tiles themselves. 

 

Niche blocks should be something with RP purpose, i.e a block that lets you spawn more resources, or a block that allows you to craft things more easily. I don't think limiting the color pallets and build styles of what normally is a creative and fun experience makes anyone want to get these resources more or encourage roleplay. It just means everything will be made out of wood and stone.

 

Definitely the right approach.  I think that giving players the means to get more resources easily should always be the goal. When people have a surplus, or when there are means to showcase your wealth in engaging ways, people will be encouraged to engage with these systems. 

 

The biggest takeaway from what I have to say is: Make resource gathering extremely easy to do for all resources, but engage the players to get more resources faster.

 

(More things like the llama potion selling could easily restore roadside roleplay, as people have a reason to now use them).

 

 

 

On 12/23/2022 at 5:03 PM, Mio said:

Q: Should tiles be uniform in shape or arbitrarily drawn by hand (roughly following geographical features etc.) such as how they are on 8.0 (current)?

Q: If they were uniform, which of the following would be preferred?

Q: If they are not uniform or arbitrary, how else would you like to see them?

Q: What kind of tile upgrades would you like to see possible?

 

Shape of the tile doesn't really mean anything as different builds and groups depend on different amounts of workable space and certain biomes to fufill their niche. Humans will always do okay regardless of size, they just need a chunk of plains to put a few buildings and houses.  It would be weird if orcs and dwarves, or any nomadic group had to work in the same space. I think tiles are pretty much fine in the current state beyond how nations have been able to purchase and route each other off from hubs (something the admins promised they wouldn't do).

 

Resources and suggestion ideas are already given above - allow players to collect resources even faster, through blocks and physical means that can be interacted with (add mines that require resources or money to maintain, more llama traders and similar services, without hamstringing everyone else who simply want to build areas for more roleplay. Building should be a means of creating places for roleplay, rather then draining people's time through pointless mechanics.

[creamynoteblock 2403]

i think there should be less tiles and they should be drawn around geographic features

[Esterlen 4461]

Hi Mio, merry Christmas and I hope you have the time to read this. 
 

Tiles ought to largely follow geographical features that occur naturally, like rivers, mountains and so on. Everything else you mentioned I’m fairly agnostic on.

 

One factor I think is critically important is ensuring that multiple tiles are available to nations and perhaps even settlements, if you’re feeling generous. A lot of people who are complaining about nations occupying tiles and not cultivating them may have little memory of the hell that was last map, where each nation was limited to a single tile as part of some bizarre admin innovation that wanted to force every polity to be a city-state, so that the rest of the world could be kept available for the ultra-liberal charter system. These charters, most of which were niche and unsustainable, pretty much always died after a short time and polluted the world with ugly, empty towns and castles, never to be confiscated until Grool became admin and cracked down on the practice.
 

This is a terrible system that not only resulted in so much of the map going unused, but also deprived nations of the choice to use it even if they wanted to. Instead, everything was crammed into a single tile, leading some areas of the map to have incredibly concentrated landscars and others to be perpetually empty and desolate. I want to see vast states with a number of different ecosystems and towns, not an urban agglomeration crowded into a single tile. The Helena-Rubern-Reza-Palatinate-Owynsburg-Avalain-Morsgrad megapolis was one of the ugliest, most immersion-breaking features I’ve ever seen on this server. Yes, nations having so many empty tiles is not ideal, but it’s infinitely better than the alternative. If you can’t come up with a fair mechanic to incentivise them to develop outlying tiles (And no, I don’t think increasing the bar for acquisition will necessarily help this), the status quo is preferable to reverting to last map’s kleinstaaterei.
 

I think that the issue of nations not effectively developing occupied tiles could be easily remedied by some other suggestions I’ve made on prior feedback threads, such as having direct warps to nation capitals from CT. Under the current system, there is a perverse incentive against developing any land that’s too far away from hubs - speaking as someone who has been involved in this in the past, a lot of potential developers are not prepared to take the risk on building a town or estate too far from a spawn hub. If you were to change the system so that players spawned directly in front of nation capitals from the CT, that ‘hub’ effect then becomes applied to the nation capital, something which makes perfect sense in RP - the areas closest to the capital are the most inhabited, whereas the population becomes sparser as you venture further into the frontier zones. 
 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Esterlen

[Ramon 3877]

would be nice 2 have resource pits back