Jump to content

Let's Spread Lore: A Modest System Proposal


Zarsies
 Share

Recommended Posts

I don’t agree with the proposed ideas.

 

This seems like it is minimising paperwork, but it is not. Story-team will have to start vetting every player, their backstory with a magic, their infractions, their aptitude to roleplay, their engagement with the community (for the MA, CA or FA) whilst also having to deal with the headache of arguments that will sprout. 
 

From the surface, it will seem well and fine. But all lore communities are toxic; it’s just the truth. They pretext, gossip and plot behind each other’s back - you think they like you, but beneath your nose, someone is talking poorly about you for a roleplay decision. It will become a moderation issue, long-term. Players do not like players. 

 

The moment an old necromancer is killed off in a cool PK (they have no lore infraction, a long tenure, and so on), the players who killed them will cry when they realise the same player has self-taught themselves into necromancy. 

 

The only way to mediate this is to make it so that if you plan on self-teaching another character in the future, all of your personas are forced into a staff-enforced permanent kill clause, whereby if you die, you scrap the character and make a new one.

 

But now you’re in the perpetual cycle of making the same character. It’s fun at first — you try a different aesthetic for the magic, but then it dry’s out, and what you’re enjoying is no longer fulfilling those around you, turning into annoyance. 
 

I personally agree with the idea that mastering certain lore (alchemy, magics, creatures and FAs) needs to be reduced. 

 

I agree with the idea that lore needs to be more accessible.

 

But I don’t like the idea of having a recycling machine for lore-heavy players.

 

Just my touch on the ideas.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with this. I also want to add that a lot of people here have things outside of the game, such as school, work, both, family, friends; the list goes on and on.

 

The time it takes for someone to master anything in this server, be it a Feat, creature, magic or anything can be and is a big roadblock for a lotta people that are busy, most people on LoTC don't have the time or energy to put the amount of effort and the time it takes to obtain those things. Especially when you depend on other players that can also be busy with life. 

 

I don't mean to put down the narratives that one can have when learning under another person, I myself love the roleplay of teaching and being taught, though that being an obligation can easily burn out both sides. It kind of makes something that is meant to be a hobby and a fun distraction feel like a job.

So the proposal of adding an avenue that someone can attain these things in their own time, in their own way sounds very helpful. It also gives people a lot of independence, which i appreciate.

Edited by DistantCryprid
Sorry if the white text hurts the eyes i tried to make this easier to read.
Link to post
Share on other sites

honestly just make the tier system a whole lot more shorter, ppl dont like getting rid of their characters or pking them bc they spent several months just to cast a fireball or a cool spell

 

not to toot my own horn here but kani only takes 1 month to know the spell, and then at that point, the next few tiers are just lowering the amt of emotes it takes to do connection (players can also progress tiers w/o lessons from their teachers)

 

djinn doesn't take that long to progress tiers either

Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Zarsies said:

What are your thoughts on a system where self teaching and grandfathering are more open? For example, say a player has had a TA in a magic and fully taught 3 players across - I don't know, 1 year? - and has received 0 infractions in that time. Therein lies an implication of trust. I propose we may give such a player a sort of pass, whenever they wish once their TA-having character PKs or is otherwise ultimately shelved, to self-teach and/or be grandfathered into the given player content as they wish.

 

A successful reigning lich with 6 total students, 1.5 years playtime, and 0 infractions has their phylactery crushed in some cool tense betrayal RP. They of course PK. In 3 months they apply to self-teach necromancy on a new character. A fire evocationist plays for 2 years, proliferates the magic like wildfire (hah), the ST has 0 problems with them or their students over that time, and ultimately they choose to shelf their character by sailing away with their spouse. 6 months later the player wants to try a new style of caster, perhaps a farfolk dancer in a South Hub settlement, and they want to capture the firedancer aesthetic instead of the wizard they just played. They apply to self-teach fire evocation.

 

The system would need checks and brakes of course but as a general concept what do you think of this? I'm very much a believer that factions and tribalism are the death of player content and the more people involved, playing, and having fun the merrier. Someone getting a toy to play with you also have is not a detriment to the whole. Let's spread lore.

 

I honestly couldn't have said it better myself. I think all FAs and MAs currently self teachable through OOC oversight should be allowed to be grandfathered by the TA holder in this way.

 

However, I do think that it should still be overseen by the ST, as there are practitioners with infractions and a very bad track record who shouldn't be allowed to do this so easily. Perhaps in the form of "Grandfathering Applications" (GAs), where you link an accepted TA in the past and request to relearn the magic on another character?

 

It'd be super easy to create on the forums and would as manageable as handling an MA bureaucracy wise. On top of that, it would encourage magic and alchemy usage among shorter lived races such as humans, who primarily don't learn it because of the huge investment and certain loss at the end of it all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm an elitist and I think this proposal has too much faith given to the average player. I used to be in the boat that lore should be accessible to everyone, and I encouraged the Lectors to spread alchemy as a result. While the Lectors existed I took tabs of the alchemy production on the server overall. I noticed that many players had achieved alchemy in a domino effect from us and were using our document system to mass produce it on the level that we were. We, in a sense, made alchemy TOO accessible.

In the month of AUGUST 2022, I recorded each alchemy ST req every single day and made a total tally by the end of it. It is also worth noting that I informed the Lectors to avoid producing Blasting Potions and Tanglefoot themselves as to not spoil the sample. These were the results:

TOTAL
unknown.png

POTIONS THAT COULD BE USED IN CRP
unknown.png

If you take a look at the chart, Blasting Potions and Tanglefoot were heavily produced to give players an edge on CRP. This was also pre-nerf, meaning that the Tanglefoot would've stopped people dead in their tracks and the Blasting Potions would've been AOE hammer hits every 2 emotes. If you take a look at the chart which focuses on the POTIONS THAT COULD BE USED IN CRP, Blasting Potions, Cockatrice Breath and Tanglefoot made up 50.7% of all potions. This means, definitively, more than half the potions being used in CRP were cancerous in nature to deal with. This was because they were the best potions to use in CRP, and the player base which now had a wide access to Alchemy opted to mass produce the potions that would give them an edge.

Since then, my mentality has shifted to one of Gatekeeping. I think the average player, when left to their own devices, will seldom act for the betterment of the server and will instead do anything to get an edge over others. I too fall victim to this mentality often, knowing that I can be jumped by a random bandit if I am not prepared adequately for what cancerous lore they might throw at me. I think that enabling any player to get access to any CA, Magic , etc. will lead to disaster as they will find ways to abuse the spirit of the lore in favor of powering up like an anime.

It is also worth mentioning that Lore itself is constantly being altered due to the actions of players as is. Amendments, Nerfs, Rewrites, etc. feel like a constant occurrence because players either want to buff themselves or the ST has to step in to remedy an oversight which led to lore-looping and/or power gaming. Our lore is fragile and player written, I dread to imagine what horrid deeds we'd be forced to deal with if anyone could do anything. This is not even to mention the stream of rewrites, additions and amendments being proposed by those who just dipped a toe in.

In Runescape RP we reached a point of saturation, given that there were no applications whatsoever, where everyone was a max level Ancient Magic user who could spam Ice Barrage, had Dragon Weaponry (equivalent to Carb), Agile Leather Armor (for dodging and absorbing spells), Hand Cannons and some level of CA (OMG MAHJARRAT?). I don't want to see LOTC fall down the same rabbit hole.

ALSO, on PKs, I don't think PKing makes one a better RPer or not. I don't think it's wrong for people to not want to PK given the time investment; they just want to have fun on the server and may have IRL commitments that make restarting every week a hassle. For the past decade I've run on personal PK clauses and have just now learned KLONING for le immortality. If we want to see more PKs, CAs shouldn't have immortality written into them and should instead have a catastrophic off-switch like every other bad guy. Where did the phylactery for Liches go? I'm not against heroes also having some critical weakness like this if they get a Holy Magic, but come on... Most CAs are Monsters!

Link to post
Share on other sites

this is just like VAs, it's the obvious way to go instead of gatekeeping a whole piece of the server from people who may very well be capable, but don't mesh with groups because of timezones, etc.

of course, the people who rely on more obscure magics/CAs to feel special will feel VERY ATTACKED!!! by this thread, but zarsies is just spitting truth (as usual). also, just instantly assuming every person who gets necromancy or whatever will be some giga powergaming noob is just that, assumption.

the "recycling machine" thing isn't that realistic either, the system could easily be ironed out to avoid that with one little redline, and every magic/CA obsessed player will already have their "recycling machine" in the form of OOC friends already. it's already a thing without this. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

This sounds really good Zarsies.  It is a change away from current hardline lore that is often time impractical to teach.  But I cannot agree with this.

 

This is utopian.  The idea that the staff team (composed of volunteers) will be impartial to everyone and give infractions when they are needed will never work.  Everyone is in their own communities, they will be bias even if they don't realize it themselves.  

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Coming into this thread I fully agreed with @Zarsiesas I've had a similar opinion when it comes to magical characters and pks, how long it takes to learn magic, etc.. But then further into the thread I come to agree with @Werew0lfon the points of lore/magic community toxicity and a staff-enforced pk clause for self-teaching.

But with all things the thread only gets better as more people add to it and I agree with points made by @Islamadon, realistically I also don't particularly have the most trust in players to do things for the betterment of the server instead of themselves and their friends.

As a long-time player on lotc, I find it incredibly exhausting that magics can take as long as they do to learn when in reality mastering a magic is more so akin to just knowing the lore, its redlines and being comfortable to ask questions as many times as it takes to understand it.

What I'd like to see going forward with regards to the topic is that perhaps instead of allowing for example a T5 Necromancer whom just PK'd to self-teach on another persona that we can instead is if this player attains necromancy again on a new persona perhaps they can be fast-tracked in tier progression as a gifted student as OOCly these players would have as much understanding of the lore as their teacher.

I hope discussion on this topic deepens and more players voice their opinions so much so that we as a community can see if changes can or should be made in regards to the topic.

- DrakeHaze

Link to post
Share on other sites

yes please this kind of stuff happens anyway, everyone is so uppity about protecting the "quality of roleplay" and the "quality of their lore" very archaic way of thinking 

Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Unwillingly said:

 

this already happens

 

It does. We shouldn't encourage it further. 

 

Honestly wish it was enforced more harshly.

3 hours ago, Islamadon said:

I'm an elitist and I think this proposal has too much faith given to the average player. I used to be in the boat that lore should be accessible to everyone, and I encouraged the Lectors to spread alchemy as a result. While the Lectors existed I took tabs of the alchemy production on the server overall. I noticed that many players had achieved alchemy in a domino effect from us and were using our document system to mass produce it on the level that we were. We, in a sense, made alchemy TOO accessible.

In the month of AUGUST 2022, I recorded each alchemy ST req every single day and made a total tally by the end of it. It is also worth noting that I informed the Lectors to avoid producing Blasting Potions and Tanglefoot themselves as to not spoil the sample. These were the results:

TOTAL
unknown.png

POTIONS THAT COULD BE USED IN CRP
unknown.png

If you take a look at the chart, Blasting Potions and Tanglefoot were heavily produced to give players an edge on CRP. This was also pre-nerf, meaning that the Tanglefoot would've stopped people dead in their tracks and the Blasting Potions would've been AOE hammer hits every 2 emotes. If you take a look at the chart which focuses on the POTIONS THAT COULD BE USED IN CRP, Blasting Potions, Cockatrice Breath and Tanglefoot made up 50.7% of all potions. This means, definitively, more than half the potions being used in CRP were cancerous in nature to deal with. This was because they were the best potions to use in CRP, and the player base which now had a wide access to Alchemy opted to mass produce the potions that would give them an edge.

Since then, my mentality has shifted to one of Gatekeeping. I think the average player, when left to their own devices, will seldom act for the betterment of the server and will instead do anything to get an edge over others. I too fall victim to this mentality often, knowing that I can be jumped by a random bandit if I am not prepared adequately for what cancerous lore they might throw at me. I think that enabling any player to get access to any CA, Magic , etc. will lead to disaster as they will find ways to abuse the spirit of the lore in favor of powering up like an anime.

It is also worth mentioning that Lore itself is constantly being altered due to the actions of players as is. Amendments, Nerfs, Rewrites, etc. feel like a constant occurrence because players either want to buff themselves or the ST has to step in to remedy an oversight which led to lore-looping and/or power gaming. Our lore is fragile and player written, I dread to imagine what horrid deeds we'd be forced to deal with if anyone could do anything. This is not even to mention the stream of rewrites, additions and amendments being proposed by those who just dipped a toe in.

In Runescape RP we reached a point of saturation, given that there were no applications whatsoever, where everyone was a max level Ancient Magic user who could spam Ice Barrage, had Dragon Weaponry (equivalent to Carb), Agile Leather Armor (for dodging and absorbing spells), Hand Cannons and some level of CA (OMG MAHJARRAT?). I don't want to see LOTC fall down the same rabbit hole.

ALSO, on PKs, I don't think PKing makes one a better RPer or not. I don't think it's wrong for people to not want to PK given the time investment; they just want to have fun on the server and may have IRL commitments that make restarting every week a hassle. For the past decade I've run on personal PK clauses and have just now learned KLONING for le immortality. If we want to see more PKs, CAs shouldn't have immortality written into them and should instead have a catastrophic off-switch like every other bad guy. Where did the phylactery for Liches go? I'm not against heroes also having some critical weakness like this if they get a Holy Magic, but come on... Most CAs are Monsters!

 

Preach preach PREACH. 

 

You were able to word it far better than I was with my singular collective braincell.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Isnt it sort of metagaming to dictate in-roleplay interactions based on OOC knowledge? I dont know why a few people on this thread would oust themselves as gate-keepers like that. Makes you look like a horrible curator for what ever magic you might be gate-keeping. Why would someone have to build some random OOC trust with you before their character would be able to get a chance at magic? That is the whole point of the teacher program in the first place. Be a teacher. The teacher is to guide the player on what is right and wrong and punish based on this. You're supposed to hold their hand. If you're only going to hand the magic out to people "you trust" who are "your friends", you're the problem.

People are being far too picky and unwilling to give an average player a chance just because they're average. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, ronin_champloo said:

not to toot my own horn here but kani only takes 1 month to know the spell, and then at that point, the next few tiers are just lowering the amt of emotes it takes to do connection (players can also progress tiers w/o lessons from their teachers)

 

dude spoon your lore is always so awesome! please write more lore spoon! more magics maybe, and maybe you can grandfather me into them too hahaha dude your lore is awesome!

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

10 hours ago, ronin_champloo said:

honestly just make the tier system a whole lot more shorter, ppl dont like getting rid of their characters or pking them bc they spent several months just to cast a fireball or a cool spell

 

not to toot my own horn here but kani only takes 1 month to know the spell, and then at that point, the next few tiers are just lowering the amt of emotes it takes to do connection (players can also progress tiers w/o lessons from their teachers)

 

djinn doesn't take that long to progress tiers either

Hey nice Kani TA

Link to post
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...