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When does your right to roleplay on LOTC get permanently revoked? [TW]


MunaZaldrizoti

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I’m so proud of you muna. All of your friends are!!

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5 minutes ago, LoTC's Next Top Model said:


your response was "i was edgy when i joined the server too!", which unless you were EXPLICITLY THREATENING TO RAPE PEOPLE, wasn't as edgy as he was. i don't think "man, i said some insensitive stuff four years ago" should make you immediately sympathize with the guy. sure, we all said some bad stuff, but that doesn't mean anything.

there's a huge difference between "i was rude several years ago and i'm different now so maybe it's different now!" and "ALL OF US ARE TERRIBLE AND SHOULD FORGIVE!". i said some bad stuff in my youth, and i NEVER did any of this shit! i never even came CLOSE!

not all of use were this bad. most of us wern't, which is why most of us didn't take a four year ban. you're trying to play defense for a dude you never met by saying "hey, cmon guys, people change!", when that doesn't even matter. there is a limit beyond which you've crossed a line and shouldn't be allowed back. i'm not saying he should never be able to find a job or find happiness again or he should lose everything, but he for sure should not be allowed back on the server. you do not have a right to lotc. "i'm sorry i threatened to rape you to death" isn't enough (and he apparently never even went so far as to say that to the affected party). who is to judge he's changed, if the victims all agree he hasn't and never came forward to try and fix anything?

i hope he does grow and change. i just also hope he does it elsewhere, because i won't welcome him here.


i wouldn't because i wouldn't let them back because i am firm anti-rapist.

 

I don't think assuming the worst out of me when I was just giving my thoughts on the topic is the best move here. By edgy, I just swore at people and was toxic to be around when I first joined the server, and joined up with the Snow Elves.

 

Like I said before, I'm not saying that people should forgive Charlemagne for what he's done. Not at all. I don't even know the guy, this is my perspective reading through everything here. I'm saying that I hope that his attempts of amending stuff is sincere and truthful should the community give him a chance.

 

Expressing my thoughts on a forum-post and discussion, and immediately being accused of throwing out rape threats is something I truly did not expect.

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4 minutes ago, LoTC's Next Top Model said:

saying "i will rape you until you're not a f--got anymore" doesn't directly make you a rapist, but i can tell you that non-rapists wouldn't ******* say that.

not saying that the comments still weren't horrible but that was not what was said in those screenshots. It's not even a paraphrase either.

Edited by Twodiks
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6 minutes ago, LoTC's Next Top Model said:

your response was "i was edgy when i joined the server too!", which unless you were EXPLICITLY THREATENING TO RAPE PEOPLE, wasn't as edgy as he was. i don't think "man, i said some insensitive stuff four years ago" should make you immediately sympathize with the guy. sure, we all said some bad stuff, but that doesn't mean anything.

I have never seen someone take a honest, valid, and reasonable statement, and completely shred, and turn it 180, to match their point to such a degree as you have just done.

9 minutes ago, LoTC's Next Top Model said:

who is to judge he's changed, if the victims all agree he hasn't and never came forward to try and fix anything?

The victims agree on that, but have also stated that they did not let them come forward to try and fix anything. It's put perfectly by Summer. How do you expect them to come forward, especially after 4 years, when they are refused to even speak to them.

51 minutes ago, Summerisdumb said:

Can i just like - butt in, maybe he tried to reach out yesterday upon finding out this was being made because he DIDNT know you were still affected by this? You have said - your dms are/were open, then you refuse to get into a conversation with him over something said 4 years ago, I understand hurt can last a lifetime, but if he was to be in a 1 on 1 dm with you surely if he said something malicious or evil it could be used against him as evidence to suggest why he hasnt changed and should be re-banned. 

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5 minutes ago, LoTC's Next Top Model said:


saying "i will rape you until you're not a f--got anymore" doesn't directly make you a rapist, but i can tell you that non-rapists wouldn't ******* say that.

the same way i will categorize people talking about how kids are sexy as diddlers even if they havn't actually touched a child, i will classify people glorifying or threatening rape as rapists.

 

It's certainly fair to say that the remarks made were abhorrent, and not the sort from people that anyone should want on the server. I do agree with your principle; that Charlemagne should not be permitted back onto the server. This is evidenced by a currently deleted reply of his (funny that) which went along the lines of 'different discord name, this is a bad smear', followed by a paragraph of an apology. 

This shows that he doesn't actually feel remorse for his actions, and would rather sweep them under the rug than apologise for his actions - that, and the comment of MissToni stating that they hadn't received an apology. All this paints the picture of someone who doesn't feel remorse for their actions. As such, in my view, they should not be permitted back onto the server.

 

HoweverI think it's inadvisable to call people rapists if they decidedly aren't under the pretence that they said something that a rapist would say. I support your general point - Charlemagne should not be let back in - but not the ammunition. 

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1 minute ago, satinkira said:

This is evidenced by a currently deleted reply of his (funny that) which went along the lines of 'different discord name, this is a bad smear', followed by a paragraph of an apology. 

Those were two different people afaik, if ur talkin abt chaotikals comment

Edited by Twodiks
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Just now, Twodiks said:

Those were two different people afaik, if ur talkin abt chaotikals comment

 

fair enough, mb. point still stands about the other stuff

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3 minutes ago, ronin_champloo said:

 

I don't think assuming the worst out of me when I was just giving my thoughts on the topic is the best move here. By edgy, I just swore at people and was toxic to be around when I first joined the server, and joined up with the Snow Elves.

 

Like I said before, I'm not saying that people should forgive Charlemagne for what he's done. Not at all. I don't even know the guy, this is my perspective reading through everything here. I'm saying that I hope that his attempts of amending stuff is sincere and truthful should the community give him a chance.

 

Expressing my thoughts on a forum-post and discussion, and immediately being accused of throwing out rape threats is something I truly did not expect.


i didn't threaten, i asked. i was making the point that your "i was edgy" is NOWHERE NEAR what he said. what i said was "unless you threatened to rape people, you were not this edgy". i was saying that you're trying to draw equivocation between just being an edgy kid and threatening to rape people, hurt people, etc, and that these things just are not the same. my arguements literally don't work if you also did this.

what you did was... just be unpleasant to people? that's... fine. that's perfectly forgivable. but it's nothing like what they did. if you think people who threaten to rape people straight should be allowed back on the server, what don't you think should be allowed?

"but he really really sowwy! T_T" isn't a defense of threatening to rape people. "but i swore at some people when i was 14 and i'm different now!" is so out of the league of threatening to rape people that your point is invalid. that's the entire point of what i was saying. there is NO equivelance between what you did, what i did, and what HE did. "we were all terrible once" vastly understates and undervalues the actual harm of what he did. it's just like saying "boys will be boys".

"i understand where he's coming from, i ran with snow elves", and openly sympathizing with his situation, is a horrible look for you and makes it seem like you just don't understand the absolute scale of what he did.

it's okay, i forgive you for what you did as a kid if you were just a young no-nothing being rude and mean to people for no reason, swearing at people, etc. i think that that doesn't define you.

i do not forgive charlamagne. i think threatening to rape people when you're young does define you to some degree. i think he is perfectly capable of changing. but lotc need not be the metric for him to change, nor should he explicitly be allowed back because "we were all edgy at one point!", because even as edgy and crude as we may have been when we were young, we didn't go as far as he did. he went to an exceptional degree that resulted in his longtime ban. he, by that nature alone, is not "just an edgy kid".

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9 minutes ago, ChefDeuce said:

I have never seen someone take a honest, valid, and reasonable statement, and completely shred, and turn it 180, to match their point to such a degree as you have just done.

The victims agree on that, but have also stated that they did not let them come forward to try and fix anything. It's put perfectly by Summer. How do you expect them to come forward, especially after 4 years, when they are refused to even speak to them.

I can comment on the fact that I do not think I have this guy blocked, I never received any friend request of anything. And have never received any apology.

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15 minutes ago, ChefDeuce said:

I have never seen someone take a honest, valid, and reasonable statement, and completely shred, and turn it 180, to match their point to such a degree as you have just done.

The victims agree on that, but have also stated that they did not let them come forward to try and fix anything. It's put perfectly by Summer. How do you expect them to come forward, especially after 4 years, when they are refused to even speak to them.


what 180 did i take? "oh, you admit you said some bad stuff as a teenager, therefore you have no grounds to say you shouldn't threaten to rape people?"

 

 

16 minutes ago, Twodiks said:

not saying that the comments still weren't horrible but that was not what was said in those screenshots. It's not even a paraphrase either.

sorry, you're right, the "i will rape you" comment was seperate from the "i will beat you until you're not a f- anymore" comment.

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19 minutes ago, LoTC's Next Top Model said:


i didn't threaten, i asked. i was making the point that your "i was edgy" is NOWHERE NEAR what he said. what i said was "unless you threatened to rape people, you were not this edgy". i was saying that you're trying to draw equivocation between just being an edgy kid and threatening to rape people, hurt people, etc, and that these things just are not the same. my arguements literally don't work if you also did this.

what you did was... just be unpleasant to people? that's... fine. that's perfectly forgivable. but it's nothing like what they did. if you think people who threaten to rape people straight should be allowed back on the server, what don't you think should be allowed?

"but he really really sowwy! T_T" isn't a defense of threatening to rape people. "but i swore at some people when i was 14 and i'm different now!" is so out of the league of threatening to rape people that your point is invalid. that's the entire point of what i was saying. there is NO equivelance between what you did, what i did, and what HE did. "we were all terrible once" vastly understates and undervalues the actual harm of what he did. it's just like saying "boys will be boys".

"i understand where he's coming from, i ran with snow elves", and openly sympathizing with his situation, is a horrible look for you and makes it seem like you just don't understand the absolute scale of what he did.

it's okay, i forgive you for what you did as a kid if you were just a young no-nothing being rude and mean to people for no reason, swearing at people, etc. i think that that doesn't define you.

i do not forgive charlamagne. i think threatening to rape people when you're young does define you to some degree. i think he is perfectly capable of changing. but lotc need not be the metric for him to change, nor should he explicitly be allowed back because "we were all edgy at one point!", because even as edgy and crude as we may have been when we were young, we didn't go as far as he did. he went to an exceptional degree that resulted in his longtime ban. he, by that nature alone, is not "just an edgy kid".

 

Never did I state in what I said that being toxic is comparable to what he said to the aforementioned people, that was a passing comment in the introduction of my thoughts on the situation. I'm not sympathizing with his situation at all, I'm saying that having seen toxicity, albeit on a much more smaller and less severe scale, I can somewhat understand the perspectives of both sides -- the person and the people that they've affected -- as I tend to be friendly and talk to a bunch of people. That's all. It isn't that deep.

 

Like I've stated and shown numerous times now, I do not condone his actions. I do not expect the people and the community to forgive him at all. I'm not telling the community to give him a second chance, I'm saying that it's reasonable for people to give him a second chance to earn that forgiveness should they wish to offer it, something that is their choice, and theirs only.

 

I do not forgive him at all, and I cannot even say that I can forgive him if I wanted to as I'm separated from the situation. While I acknowledge that he's been remorseful and apologetic on the post, like I've said, I'm wary from seeing the arguments and debates from both sides.

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A lot of super helpful and thought provoking comments being made here

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10 minutes ago, ronin_champloo said:

 

Never did I state in what I said that being toxic is comparable to what he said to the aforementioned people, that was a passing comment in the introduction of my thoughts on the situation. I'm not sympathizing with his situation at all, I'm saying that having seen toxicity, albeit on a much more smaller and less severe scale, I can somewhat understand the perspectives of both sides -- the person and the people that they've affected -- as I tend to be friendly and talk to a bunch of people. That's all. It isn't that deep.

 

Like I've stated and shown numerous times now, I do not condone his actions. I do not expect the people and the community to forgive him at all. I'm not telling the community to give him a second chance, I'm saying that it's reasonable for people to give him a second chance to earn that forgiveness should they wish to offer it, something that is their choice, and theirs only.

 

I do not forgive him at all, and I cannot even say that I can forgive him if I wanted to as I'm separated from the situation. While I acknowledge that he's been remorseful and apologetic on the post, like I've said, I'm wary from seeing the arguments and debates from both sides.


sympathizing is comparing someone's experiences to your own and feeling empathy, which...

 

However, recognizing the potential for change is important in this instance. We were all horrible once, as when we're younger, our morals and attitudes to things are still developing. More-so when we're surrounded by people and an audience that clamors and cheers for negativity. Obviously, this doesn't excuse what he did but I'm sure we could all remember the things and actions that we've done to antagonize others -- mistakes and beliefs made when our thoughts on topics weren't set in stone, or when we were surrounded in a toxic and bad environment. Such things, I've repeated, need to be remember as are people's capacity to learn and grow.

 

Holding people accountable doesn't mean that they're forever condemned to their mistakes and deeds, but rather ensuring that they take responsibility for their actions, and continue to grow and learn from them.

 

If the guy's apologized, and truly feels guilt and shame for what he had done before, then I find that it's reasonable to consider giving them a second chance -- not forgiveness, but rather acknowledgement. Acknowledge that people can learn and grow beyond the crude person that they were once before. I don't even expect the guy to be forgiven by the community or the people that he's affected from what I've seen and the responses, but rather what I'd hope to see is for people to see that the attempt for amends is there. Be wary by all means, but hopeful.

is what this is. i find it hard to read this and not think you're trying to say that he deserves a second chance and should be allowed back on the server, without explicitly saying that.

you didn't state these things were equal, but that we should remember what we did and consider that when we judge what he did... which is called "sympathizing".

you're trying to hold a neutral fencesitting position on a very extreme situation, and it reflects poorly on you. trying to go "we all do bad things, learn, and grow, and maybe he deserves a second chance!" (which was the content of your first post that i listed above), it makes you look like you're trying to morally grandstand the fact you don't instantly throw away the possibility of allowing someone throwing rape threats around on the server.

you also didn't say the people involved should be allowed to give him a second chance, you said the /community/ should.

maybe you didn't write exactly what you meant, maybe it's not actually that deep, but what your post comes across as is really unaware, really haughty, and like you're trying to prune yourself as looking good. not to say any of those things are stains on your person, it could just be a really bad post, but it made me baulk to see someone go "oh, but we /all/ did bad things when we were young, who are we to judge? perhaps they deserve a second chance!".

it's bad optics, mate.

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43 minutes ago, ChefDeuce said:

The victims agree on that, but have also stated that they did not let them come forward to try and fix anything. It's put perfectly by Summer. How do you expect them to come forward, especially after 4 years, when they are refused to even speak to them.

It is completely and utterly not MissToni's job to give Charlemagne an avenue for forgiveness. He has to seek that himself.

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