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When does your right to roleplay on LOTC get permanently revoked? [TW]


MunaZaldrizoti

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3 minutes ago, LoTC's Next Top Model said:


sympathizing is comparing someone's experiences to your own and feeling empathy, which...

 

However, recognizing the potential for change is important in this instance. We were all horrible once, as when we're younger, our morals and attitudes to things are still developing. More-so when we're surrounded by people and an audience that clamors and cheers for negativity. Obviously, this doesn't excuse what he did but I'm sure we could all remember the things and actions that we've done to antagonize others -- mistakes and beliefs made when our thoughts on topics weren't set in stone, or when we were surrounded in a toxic and bad environment. Such things, I've repeated, need to be remember as are people's capacity to learn and grow.

 

Holding people accountable doesn't mean that they're forever condemned to their mistakes and deeds, but rather ensuring that they take responsibility for their actions, and continue to grow and learn from them.

 

If the guy's apologized, and truly feels guilt and shame for what he had done before, then I find that it's reasonable to consider giving them a second chance -- not forgiveness, but rather acknowledgement. Acknowledge that people can learn and grow beyond the crude person that they were once before. I don't even expect the guy to be forgiven by the community or the people that he's affected from what I've seen and the responses, but rather what I'd hope to see is for people to see that the attempt for amends is there. Be wary by all means, but hopeful.

is what this is. i find it hard to read this and not think you're trying to say that he deserves a second chance and should be allowed back on the server, without explicitly saying that.

you didn't state these things were equal, but that we should remember what we did and consider that when we judge what he did... which is called "sympathizing".

you're trying to hold a neutral fencesitting position on a very extreme situation, and it reflects poorly on you. trying to go "we all do bad things, learn, and grow, and maybe he deserves a second chance!" (which was the content of your first post that i listed above), it makes you look like you're trying to morally grandstand the fact you don't instantly throw away the possibility of allowing someone throwing rape threats around on the server.

you also didn't say the people involved should be allowed to give him a second chance, you said the /community/ should.

maybe you didn't write exactly what you meant, maybe it's not actually that deep, but what your post comes across as is really unaware, really haughty, and like you're trying to prune yourself as looking good. not to say any of those things are stains on your person, it could just be a really bad post, but it made me baulk to see someone go "oh, but we /all/ did bad things when we were young, who are we to judge? perhaps they deserve a second chance!".

it's bad optics, mate.

 

It's not that deep, I don't know any of the people here. I just looked at the post and wanted to put my own thoughts in it.

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Just now, ronin_champloo said:

 

It's not that deep, I don't know any of the people here. I just looked at the post and wanted to put my own thoughts in it.


i'm sorry i took your shallow thoughts on a post regarding rape threats as having content or context you believed in or supported.

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1 minute ago, LoTC's Next Top Model said:


i'm sorry i took your shallow thoughts on a post regarding rape threats as having content or context you believed in or supported.

 

wrong ammunition, wrong target

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Just now, satinkira said:

 

wrong ammunition, wrong target

Pretty rough to title someone a target even in the metaphorical sense when discussing this topic. Don't know why the moderation team/ admin team hasn't locked this thread yet. I think enough has been said about it to warrant talks/ investigations into the issue.

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1 minute ago, satinkira said:

 

wrong ammunition, wrong target


i don't believe in having a dedicated one wrong person to spend my life chasing. i think people that say wild or bad shit should have that criticized, regardless of my personal relation to them. i actually don't mind spoons as a person, but these were just bad posts he made.

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People just exposing themselves at this point. Sheesh.

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3 hours ago, argonian said:

I think you guys are missing the fact that other currently active users are present in the conversation where trol and other users said they would "share" joeltheginger, including players who are presently major figures in important nations.

 

I'm not saying that the server has to take a "boys will be boys" attitude where, if multiple people say something, then it must be OK. But on the other hand, to avoid target-bans, it is appropriate to see if the one player being reported is solely at fault, and if not, who else was, etc.

 

So if you're dealing with a situation where it's like "this guy did X 4 years ago, but many of his currently-unbanned friends laughed and played along with it," then you have to either treat them all the same, as if they all stayed that way forever, or consider "maybe he was just in a shitty environment, as were (possibly) they, and has reformed since". Which is ig where the unban decision has come from. idk, I thought it was a risky decision at the time--like "if one of them makes a thread abt feeling unsafe on the server because of this, the server's done for" , and I'd also love for the guy to be banned because it'd mean one less PVPer to fight aagainst Aaun--but I'm not gonna lie here (for once!). I've known this guy since like Anthos, 2013, and I did not know about the comments he was banned for until long after, but I have never thought there was anything creepy or threatening about his behaviour, so I can understand the admin decision that he only said what he said as an outburst based on what was normal in the environment he was in at the time.

 

LOTC was, and still is to a lesser extent, full of crazy insults and derogations in private chats, and the logs present show active unbanned players laughing and chatting as Charlemagne said the stuff he should apparently be re-banned for, so rebanning him without rebanning all of them just demonstrates peak bias.

 

I think one difference (ignoring the overt one that Gusano didn't actually threaten to rape anyone) is that if Joel made this thread about one of the enablers in those screenshots like Gusano, there wouldn't be a dozen hidden / warned replies of people Gusano currently leads in his roleplay community shouting down Joel and effectively telling him that he's wrong for sharing his story.

 

The reason why I wouldn't agree with conflating punishment here is because Gusano's not only apologized multiple times to Joel, but also made it pretty clear that he's never going to put himself in an environment where he would be compelled to say or even enable that sort of rhetoric again. I can't imagine the people that Gusano associates with now acting in the same fashion as what we saw earlier in this thread, even if the victim was accusing their friend.

 

I think that's the only person featured in the screenshots that you can say is a currently active player, let alone a major figure, and the instance there is a lot different with that context in mind.

 

I don't think the point of this thread is exclusively a conversation about 'Let's reban Trol." To me, I look at this all and I see it as a reminder that Trol could very well just end up being rebanned again anyway if what Joel's saying isn't being taken seriously. If you surround yourself with people that don't hold you accountable, and would rather attack people you've hurt than even just let them say their piece, you're putting yourself in the same environment that normalized abuse. If you're genuinely sorry - why in the world would you do that?

 

I am someone who does not want to see Trol be defined by the worst things he's done. He's someone that despite whatever differences we have, I do not dismiss. I wish him peace in life, and want him to succeed in being a better person.

 

That said, I also believe in accountability. Is LotC going to be the place where that happens? Is playing LotC with the same community of people that led him to act so absurdly violent going to lead to anything different this time around? Is doing all that, knowing that the people you fundamentally violated, feel pushed away from a hobby that they love, something you can reconcile peacefully? Or are all those conditions just going to open old scars?

 

Each of those questions could have a different answer. The staff need to weigh those questions out in and give a serious answer, and honestly, even more than them, Trol should too.

 

There are those here that I feel suggest that Joel or Toni simply block Trol, or let Trol do his thing and mind their business. I cannot sympathize with that, as not only is it putting the onus on a victim, but it's not something Joel or Toni could really do as the roleplay that Trol drives grows to a larger and larger scale.

 

End of the day, It doesn't matter whether if he wins or loses a military conflict ( and even on that level, imo, he's already won, so those worried that this thread exists because of wartime targeting really shouldn't have much to fear )

 

It's about the fact that he has built such a reputation of infamy that even if he doesn't want it, by leading these campaigns, taking up more space of the server narrative, and organizing these efforts in roleplay - all these escalations of conflict alongside people who seem to disregard his victims' pain can validate a long culture of abuse. That makes it hard for players like Joel and Toni, and some that share their concerns, to really feel comfortable on the server, and all that is a tough pill to swallow.

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@MunaZaldrizoti you are so brave for speaking out about this and I have nothing but complete support for you. Sending good energy and love. Don't stop speaking. Do not let people put you down. Keep on standing proudly and speak the truth.  As no person should ever have to experience this type of pain for so long and stay silent. Ignore those who are trying to dismiss your pain. Because your feelings are fully valid and should not be shut down.

 

I also send my love, good energy, and support, to all who where effected by the behaviors of these people. Anyone else who might be staying silent for the fear of being attacked, remember, you are loved and your feelings are always valid. If you are planning to also speak out like Muna, I also fully support you. 

Remember everyone, to spread love and support those who have experienced these type of things. It is never okay to be attacked because of your identity and it is never okay to speak about harming another human being in the type of way shown in this form or joke about it. I want to say before finishing off, to the people who have experienced this, once more I remind. Your feelings are valid, your pain shouldn't have happened in the first place, and I fully support you and people love you.

 

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muna and toni, you're doing amazing and be proud for speaking out <3

 

reading all these comments made realize who we should stay away from, yiiiiiikes

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I don't feel like it's insane to point out that not only are genuine threats of any kind are scummy, it's also a crime. Atleast in the USA.

 

Is it too much to ask that people be responsible for what they say online? When it happened or if they've changed is sort of irrelevant when we're talking about genuine threats of sexual assault. I personally think the server is better off without that kind of stuff. I'm just here for the roleplay.

 

 

 

 

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I got to about page 4 and then just began skim-reading the comments because majority of them were the same. I'm gonna make a couple of observations + comments based on my personal opinion, but I also don't recall the original issue / ban / etc. because I wasn't involved heavily in those communities at the time and this is honestly the first I'm hearing of it.

 

I.

First of all, to everyone saying "He's changed since then, but you wouldn't know because you won't let him speak to you / contact you. You have no right to judge his character in the current day". What utter bullshit. If someone had made those comments about me, threatening to violate me and disregard my identity to that extent, I wouldn't feel comfortable at all having them contact me. Muna and Toni have more courage than I for being willing to hear their apologies, which evidently never came. But me? Hell no. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near them, even online, and should be PROMISED a lack of interact via a permanent ban on the server.

 

II.
Which brings me to the next point - This is a minecraft server.

For anyone to be that viciously angry and hostile to the point of making those sorts of comments, on a MINECRAFT SERVER, not only shows insanely poor judgement, but also a genuine issue with their dependency on this server. Yes, we all get angry at video games and need a few hours or days to calm down before we reattempt an area or a boss etc. But to make comments of that degree towards an online player on a minecraft server? That's a bit ridiculous. We preach that this server is supposed to be suitable for 13+ y/o, and we are fighting for better treatment and protection over our youth - what about the rest of our players? How is anyone supposed to feel comfortable and safe on this server when we unban players that have been previously permanently banned or slammed with a heavy ban at least?

 

There needs to be more to our appeal process. Admins and staff shift from the start to the end of bans on occasion, and bias has been a huge issue in the past with players getting both banned and unbanned. For bans that have occurred due to these sorts of comments and targeting, with an actual victim, it shouldn't just be up to the Admins to decide on the appeal. The Victim loses their right to feeling comfortable and safe when the player gets unbanned. Or does our staff simply forget that fact?

 

Where is the process for deciding on an appeal? We have seen the spreadsheet listing how warnings and strikes work, what about appeals? Do our staff simply discuss their ban time and whether they've served enough? There should be an approved process w/ feedback from our community on deciding whether an appeal is denied or approved. (Unless that exists already, and ignore my comment here, but I would like to know where to find it!).

 

III.

As I have already stated, I wasn't involved or aware of the original ban. I would like to know if there was only one person banned, or if others were hit as well? As another comment already stated (Apologies, I don't remember who), there were others who were actively engaging and hyping up the individuals making the comments. And it was more than just one person, from what I saw in those screenshots. Why were others not banned for taking part and not trying to stop it? The only person who tried to shut it down in any format was Trinn, as far as I saw.

 

-
Lastly. Muna and Toni. I am so sorry you had to endure this, and I find your courage exceptionally admirable. I am sure you have endless amounts of support and love from your friends already, but know that you also have mine.

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I think someone who threatens to use and I quote "electric therapy" and to "r-pe someone to death" should go through a  few psychiatry sessions before even being allowed to be unbanned.

 

It is absolutely disgusting how someone like this who is an adult by the way, can be allowed to be back on this server whilst in the past giving early signs of sadism.

 

To those who say that he has changed, 99% of the time you're certainly mistaken because when sh-t hits the fan it'll be the same situation all over again. And should it happen again then the staff who unbanned him should be held accountable with him.

 

The severe lack of the consideration of the staff to allow a person back with such a sadistic mindset and perhaps even that of a psychopathic mindset is something that should bother them and should not result into any sort of empathetic feeling for a second chance.

 

And everyone saying that this coming out because of the warclaim and to somehow get a benefit out of it, is the most ignorant person to comment that. This is a serious situation which has an OOC effect on someone and is something that is quite terrifying if it gets on a server that is for 13+ year olds.

 

Not to mention, he even denied being the one who said it for some time and pretended to not be the person on the said screenshots. I find it absurd how the staff do not take the measures into their own hands and do something that prevents the community from something happening like this ever again.

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Not sure if this means anything, but I'm new here obviously and never seen anything like this. I've met Charlemagne after all of this happened and I was super surprised that he was the type of person to even say things like that. This doesn't lower my opinion of him in any way, because he hasn't expressed any thing of that sort while we were in the same vc for multiple occasions. 

Please take it from someone who is extremely new compared to most on this platform that this person has definitely changed. I think it's bullshit that people can say something like "he shouldn't be allowed because he said this and it shouldn't be tolerated" when you don't even know how much the guy has changed. Everyone makes mistakes, this guy just happened to do this on a public platform and got shit on because of it, and for 4 years at that. Let the dude accept his mistake and move on. He displays a clear love for LOTC and it's community and is willing to admit and post for everyone to see, and for the most part, TO APOLOGIZE for his mistakes. This isn't easy for ANYONE to do. You guys don't need to forget, but you should at least forgive the guy for his mistakes. Everyone makes them and we wouldn't be who we are today if we didn't learn from them.

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the way that this thread shows a clear divide based off of which mineman war side each poster is on makes me legitimately sick to the stomach

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