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[✗] [Magic Lore] Hydromancy


Mr. Etan
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36 minutes ago, VictoriaMinaj said:

 

I really don't want to discredit your work, but this does not execute the purpose or the effects of an actual rewrite and while, sure, semantics and interchangeable words do not matter much, all I can see here is that existing spells from the current lore page have simply been expanded upon with further detail (that it had been lacking up until now) that had been missing from the submission as a whole. Clearly, I appreciate that some spells were given the same love that other evocations have, but I'd like to go in-depth about these changes that you have kindly highlighted for me. 

 

Half of the water's properties redlines are already within current lore. The nature-druid interaction is rather interesting and I am glad that people are taking it into consideration whenever they write anything that may otherwise potentially harm nature, and while I will delve not much in this aspect because I personally think that evoked water (as being from the Void) shoud provoke a twisted song, I'd like to say that I cannot really see any of these new changes other than a few reworded paragraphs AND in actuality, I have just noticed that there are some crucial redlines missing from this rewrite such as the following: 

 

(Water Properties)

"Water cannot be consumed nor provide any nutrients, due to the fact that it requires line of sight and maintenance from the caster. Should one attempt to ingest it, they will receive no benefit as the water would simply vanish the second it leaves the mage’s sight."

 

I'm unsure whether you had intended this for whatever reason, or if it was simply missed, but overall the point that I am trying to get across is that this submission only seems like an amendment post made and based in on the rest of evocations, taking after their "unique" spells (this is not an attempt at making a 'dig' or anything, i'm putting it in quotes because literally every spell across the evocations is one way or the other the same in terms of capacity). I understand that this magic is underwhelming and rather underpowered in comparison with any other voidal evocation, but why should that matter? Why do the four evocations need to be on par with one another in terms of combat practicality and utility? The answer is they do not. I don't think each one of them should be arguably as "strong" as one another.. There is so much more that could be achieved through voidal magic if we simply shifted from the way we do and have been doing things. Again, I just don't like this submission simply because despite the amount of detail that has been further implemented into the abilities, in its most devolved and natural form, the lore has not changed. It is the same stuff--the same abilities with slightly more detailed interactions and further defined ways of casting each spell (such as for water whip and storm calling, which by the way i do not consider to be a completely new ability because that is literally and without any offense hailstorm divided in three different types; water, ice, snow). When I hear the word rewrite, I expect drastic change. Something (actually) completely new and different to current, old lore. I have always thought that every evocation should have different ability arsenals and/or mechanics that solely vary on the fact that each element is different; studying earth is not like studying air, or water, or even fire, and this should be reflected somehow. Water does an exceptional job at fulfilling the "defensive" archetype (even if it has not been executed well with the currently accepted submission) and its abilities absolutely could resemble this conceptualization. These could be replaced by non-conventional and non-generic abilities that could distinguish water evocation from the rest instead of slightly thematically different variances of the other evocations' abilities (like the ones i have mentioned and now for example this write's water barrier being able to mimick the deflect ability from air evocation). Overall I just would like to see spells that are somewhat unique to each evocation rather than have all of them do the same thing to some degree (as all of them share the same combat capacity due to their abilities being what some would assume to be copy and pasted mechanics). My headcanon for water was versatility and/or protection/utility, like keeping water shield, water whip and water wave/summon wave (this ability is actually in current lore, you may have missed it), but getting rid of the rest and replace them with other new abilities that better suit the whole concept of letting water distinguish itself from the other elements. Some abilities I had in mind were: (1) water geyser (replacement of water projectile/blast), allowing water mages to have access to a somewhat combative ability that is arguably unique to its theme and elemental perception; or (2) water shield/tidemaking (replacement for water shield with an extended mechanic that unlocks based on tier progression), allowing water mages to summon their own variation of a shield spell while also being able to, at later tiers, cast the same spell but on a larger scale, allowing them to summon a tide and encase their enemy in what would be a cage/trap (this is bit anime lol but i thought that water evocation could potentially do very cool stuff if and when properly put into words). I have more ideas that I have been noting down over the last few months as I admittedly have been working on a large project to completely overhaul voidal magic as a whole (a project that i have shamelessly neglected), and I will be more than glad to share them with you in private. 

 

"I added to enchanting a new DEEP ICED, Which is super strong ice that is bound to Arcanium frames for use of Art, Gates, or weapons which is a nice, useful enhancement to enchantment." I'm particularly not too fond of this either because I personally think it may infringe on the overall niche that Frost Witches have regarding ice manipulation and cursed ice (which is basicaly deep iced but non-void sourced). This is just a personal nitpick and irrelevant to the point that I am trying to make above. 

 

Nevertheless I am glad to see that efforts are still being made to water evocation, and while I do not really support the idea that this suffices the purpose behind a rewrite, few of these changes do highlight some details that have been missing from the lore page for a while (such as for water whip, particularly enjoyed the clarification on that one). 

 

 

Worry not expressing your own opinion doesn't discredit anything and I appreciate it.

 

I just wholeheartedly disagree with your idea that a "rewrite" needs to be 100% different. I feel as large scale tweaks and changes to already existing lore constitutes a post much like this otherwise I would be making several amendment posts. I did ask Squakhawk about this, he did say that a rewrite is best for overhauls and rewording and better explaining a previously written lore I would argue is a decent overhaul. 

 

But hey, thats my opinion and if I cannot sway yours then so be it. I understand your viewpoint regardless though.

 

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"I have just noticed that there are some crucial redlines missing from this rewrite such as the following:"

 

This is already addressed with a redline. But I could re-add it to ensure everyone understands you can't drink it.

 

image.thumb.png.af5840f3cee174a5772850607e1c73ac.png

 

 

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"There is so much more that could be achieved through voidal magic if we simply shifted from the way we do and have been doing things."

 

I agree with you - but I personally think *this* post is *not* the place for debating such. This is a problem with void magic as a whole, not water evocation. It would be weird if we only did this to one of many void lores. This point is not to disregard your opinion as they are valid. 

 

I feel as Voidal Magic as a whole could use a change but that would require the Lore Section of the story team to actually have the guts to shake the norm and start up a Void Project like in the past. I can assure you that if any player attempted a whole rewrite of Voidal Magic as a whole it likely would not get passed through for the sake of stability of lore. 

 

Until then, with the way Voidal Magic is now, Evocations are kept simple and used for a half bit of combat and half bit of utility and art. Its kept simple for a reason and we need to keep it simple until the day someone decides to rewrite the entirety of voidal magic and how it works together. 

 

Honestly, in my opinion, having separate lore's for every "magic" for voidal magic is crazy. It should be more like Alchemy with a primary core post or three with explaining the mechanics and then spells can be added individually. 

 

 

Quote

My headcanon for water was versatility and/or protection/utility, like keeping water shield, water whip and water wave/summon wave (this ability is actually in current lore, you may have missed it), but getting rid of the rest and replace them with other new abilities that better suit the whole concept of letting water distinguish itself from the other elements. Some abilities I had in mind were: (1) water geyser (replacement of water projectile/blast), allowing water mages to have access to a somewhat combative ability that is arguably unique to its theme and elemental perception; or (2) water shield/tidemaking (replacement for water shield with an extended mechanic that unlocks based on tier progression), allowing water mages to summon their own variation of a shield spell while also being able to, at later tiers, cast the same spell but on a larger scale, allowing them to summon a tide and encase their enemy in what would be a cage/trap (this is bit anime lol but i thought that water evocation could potentially do very cool stuff if and when properly put into words).

 

Thank you thank you thank you for your thoughts on Water Evocation this right here is what I am looking for on this post. So we can make the lore better together.

 

Water Evocation is quite versatile yes that is my idea for it as well. This lore does keep the water shields, whip and the wave as well. It actually better expands on the spells.

 

Quote

"water geyser (replacement of water projectile/blast)"

^ Could you elaborate on this idea for me? It sounds really interesting, but I do not see how it is different from Water Projectile?

 

Quote

"cast the same spell but on a larger scale, allowing them to summon a tide and encase their enemy in what would be a cage/trap (this is bit anime lol but i thought that water evocation could potentially do very cool stuff if and when properly put into words)."

 

So *this* would be a really cool idea. Entrapping people in a water / tide cage of some sort? We could do something like that yes but it could easily be an addition to water barrier instead of a spell.

 

 

Quote

"but getting rid of the rest and replace them with other new abilities that better suit the whole concept of letting water distinguish itself from the other elements."

 

Questions with this.

 

Do you think the ability to call forth a rainstorm, to put out a large fire for example, is not disguising water from other elements? I truly enjoy the idea of summoning a rainstorm of sort as an ultimate ability that isn't 100% combative. Whats your opinion?

 

Do you think we should get rid of ice? It's been a huge part of water evocation for a long time.

 

 

End Note: Thanks so much for responding. Every opinion helps shape the overall end product and I hope to have one that the majority enjoys and will promote roleplay for both sides. Tbh, I enjoy discussing these on the forums on the post itself as it allows people outside of the circle of influence to nitpick and provide their two cents. 

1 minute ago, Mr. Etan said:

"I added to enchanting a new DEEP ICED, Which is super strong ice that is bound to Arcanium frames for use of Art, Gates, or weapons which is a nice, useful enhancement to enchantment." I'm particularly not too fond of this either because I personally think it may infringe on the overall niche that Frost Witches have regarding ice manipulation and cursed ice (which is basicaly deep iced but non-void sourced). This is just a personal nitpick and irrelevant to the point that I am trying to make above. 

 

Edit: Also this - do you think some sort of stronger more compressed water to be used as the material for this kind of enchanting would be better? Solid barriers of watrer, Water statues and Water Weapons of sort?

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9 hours ago, Mr. Etan said:

 

Worry not expressing your own opinion doesn't discredit anything and I appreciate it.

 

I just wholeheartedly disagree with your idea that a "rewrite" needs to be 100% different. I feel as large scale tweaks and changes to already existing lore constitutes a post much like this otherwise I would be making several amendment posts. I did ask Squakhawk about this, he did say that a rewrite is best for overhauls and rewording and better explaining a previously written lore I would argue is a decent overhaul. 

 

But hey, thats my opinion and if I cannot sway yours then so be it. I understand your viewpoint regardless though.

 

 

This is already addressed with a redline. But I could re-add it to ensure everyone understands you can't drink it.

 

image.thumb.png.af5840f3cee174a5772850607e1c73ac.png

 

 

 

I agree with you - but I personally think *this* post is *not* the place for debating such. This is a problem with void magic as a whole, not water evocation. It would be weird if we only did this to one of many void lores. This point is not to disregard your opinion as they are valid. 

 

I feel as Voidal Magic as a whole could use a change but that would require the Lore Section of the story team to actually have the guts to shake the norm and start up a Void Project like in the past. I can assure you that if any player attempted a whole rewrite of Voidal Magic as a whole it likely would not get passed through for the sake of stability of lore. 

 

Until then, with the way Voidal Magic is now, Evocations are kept simple and used for a half bit of combat and half bit of utility and art. Its kept simple for a reason and we need to keep it simple until the day someone decides to rewrite the entirety of voidal magic and how it works together. 

 

Honestly, in my opinion, having separate lore's for every "magic" for voidal magic is crazy. It should be more like Alchemy with a primary core post or three with explaining the mechanics and then spells can be added individually. 

 

 

 

Thank you thank you thank you for your thoughts on Water Evocation this right here is what I am looking for on this post. So we can make the lore better together.

 

Water Evocation is quite versatile yes that is my idea for it as well. This lore does keep the water shields, whip and the wave as well. It actually better expands on the spells.

 

^ Could you elaborate on this idea for me? It sounds really interesting, but I do not see how it is different from Water Projectile?

 

 

So *this* would be a really cool idea. Entrapping people in a water / tide cage of some sort? We could do something like that yes but it could easily be an addition to water barrier instead of a spell.

 

 

 

Questions with this.

 

Do you think the ability to call forth a rainstorm, to put out a large fire for example, is not disguising water from other elements? I truly enjoy the idea of summoning a rainstorm of sort as an ultimate ability that isn't 100% combative. Whats your opinion?

 

Do you think we should get rid of ice? It's been a huge part of water evocation for a long time.

 

 

End Note: Thanks so much for responding. Every opinion helps shape the overall end product and I hope to have one that the majority enjoys and will promote roleplay for both sides. Tbh, I enjoy discussing these on the forums on the post itself as it allows people outside of the circle of influence to nitpick and provide their two cents. 

 

Edit: Also this - do you think some sort of stronger more compressed water to be used as the material for this kind of enchanting would be better? Solid barriers of watrer, Water statues and Water Weapons of sort?

 

i'll contact you sometime on discord to address all of this bc i'm gonna be away for a while, but overall i'm very glad that you welcomed my opinion with so much understanding and kindness. in regards to your last questions, i don't think ice should be wholly removed from water evocation. while yes, i do believe that it might somehow infringe on the potential of frost witches when it comes to ice magick, i still think that this magic could have some nice touch that doesn't overly step on the foot of other lore submissions (like fw). admittedly i don't have much ideas in this specific regard because water whip does an exceptional job at fulfilling the whole versatile thing i had been mentioning earlier--it fuses both water and ice quite nicely and seamlessly. though some rough concepts that come to mind would be: 1) (can't think of name lol sorry) ability that allows one to freeze their opponent's hand and/or armament so that they are disarmed. think of it as some sort of expelliarmus (lame i know but just for the sake of understanding the ability, imagine it). it could even replace the concept of ice shield as an ability because it arguably suffices as a variant of what would be a defensive ability; 2) "ice mending" (lame name, should definitely be renamed). i also have an idea for a minor healing-based ability for water in specific, but what this would do is allow mages to reinforce either themselves or another with ice to i.e: temporarily straighten a broken leg or arm, blocking a bleeding injury, etc. 

specifically regarding the deep ice thing, if i'm honest, i can't really think of a replacement right now. i had huge trouble with this for frost witches when i was rewriting them because they have "cursed ice" (which is just stronger ice with the ability to house frost witch magic), and i just ended up having it induce a 7 emote long gradual process thru which the target progressively worsens til their limb is completely frozen. you could take some inspiration from this or attempt to do something completely new, but in true honesty, i don't think it'd be much of an issue if this part of the lore weren't a thing. anyhow, i'll try to shoot you a message sometime when am free

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42 minutes ago, VictoriaMinaj said:

 

i'll contact you sometime on discord to address all of this bc i'm gonna be away for a while, but overall i'm very glad that you welcomed my opinion with so much understanding and kindness. in regards to your last questions, i don't think ice should be wholly removed from water evocation. while yes, i do believe that it might somehow infringe on the potential of frost witches when it comes to ice magick, i still think that this magic could have some nice touch that doesn't overly step on the foot of other lore submissions (like fw). admittedly i don't have much ideas in this specific regard because water whip does an exceptional job at fulfilling the whole versatile thing i had been mentioning earlier--it fuses both water and ice quite nicely and seamlessly. though some rough concepts that come to mind would be: 1) (can't think of name lol sorry) ability that allows one to freeze their opponent's hand and/or armament so that they are disarmed. think of it as some sort of expelliarmus (lame i know but just for the sake of understanding the ability, imagine it). it could even replace the concept of ice shield as an ability because it arguably suffices as a variant of what would be a defensive ability; 2) "ice mending" (lame name, should definitely be renamed). i also have an idea for a minor healing-based ability for water in specific, but what this would do is allow mages to reinforce either themselves or another with ice to i.e: temporarily straighten a broken leg or arm, blocking a bleeding injury, etc. 

specifically regarding the deep ice thing, if i'm honest, i can't really think of a replacement right now. i had huge trouble with this for frost witches when i was rewriting them because they have "cursed ice" (which is just stronger ice with the ability to house frost witch magic), and i just ended up having it induce a 7 emote long gradual process thru which the target progressively worsens til their limb is completely frozen. you could take some inspiration from this or attempt to do something completely new, but in true honesty, i don't think it'd be much of an issue if this part of the lore weren't a thing. anyhow, i'll try to shoot you a message sometime when am free

 

Much appreciated. I'm going to take some of this as well and stew on some ideas. Thanks so much! You can add me on discord here: Etan#1111

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On 4/8/2023 at 12:22 PM, Mr. Etan said:

Evoke Water / Ice was left alone as its honestly extremely freeform. This can be shaped into ANY non combat spell or use that one can come up with so long it doesnt break red lines. We shouldn't need to list out a million spells as non combat use when we can be open and free form about it.

 

needs specific guidelines so it dont step on toes or be overpowered just cuz its noncombat doesnt mean u should be able to just do whatever u want with water it should be easy to tell if someone powergaming or not based on skimming the lore 1 time u need to control for the most worst faith user bc they WILL get ahold of your magic

 

literally cant see this magic getting accepted unless you remove all ice from the lore the frost witches gonna block u in lore review cuz theyre all st buddy lol

 

 

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1 hour ago, Priceflash said:

needs specific guidelines so it dont step on toes or be overpowered just cuz its noncombat doesnt mean u should be able to just do whatever u want with water it should be easy to tell if someone powergaming or not based on skimming the lore 1 time u need to control for the most worst faith user bc they WILL get ahold of your magic

 

literally cant see this magic getting accepted unless you remove all ice from the lore the frost witches gonna block u in lore review cuz theyre all st buddy lol

 

 

Read the red-lines under the spell.

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9 hours ago, Priceflash said:

needs specific guidelines so it dont step on toes or be overpowered just cuz its noncombat doesnt mean u should be able to just do whatever u want with water it should be easy to tell if someone powergaming or not based on skimming the lore 1 time u need to control for the most worst faith user bc they WILL get ahold of your magic

 

literally cant see this magic getting accepted unless you remove all ice from the lore the frost witches gonna block u in lore review cuz theyre all st buddy lol

 

 

It's quite literally the same non combat spell in current water evocation and the other elemental evocation.

 

And kinda funny how water evocation can infringe on frost witches, as water evocation initially existed prior to fw, could also be interesting to see if steam/boiling water could make a comeback or if water atronarch and transfiguration has better manipulation of hot water than the magic which studies water in all of it's forms, and is required to make said constructs.

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4 hours ago, Samler said:

steam/boiling water could make a comeback or if water atronarch and transfiguration has better manipulation of hot water than the magic which studies water in all of it's forms, and is required to make said constructs.

 

Yknow what, why not.

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Just now, Mr. Etan said:

 

Yknow what, why not.

Reminds me, maybe a duration on the waterwhip? Since it's a cute little whip which barely does anything, maybe 6 emotes duration 'per cast' would make sense? And if using a casting impliment (say, wand/staff) it could count as the handle for the spell?

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23 minutes ago, Samler said:

Reminds me, maybe a duration on the waterwhip? Since it's a cute little whip which barely does anything, maybe 6 emotes duration 'per cast' would make sense? And if using a casting impliment (say, wand/staff) it could count as the handle for the spell?

 

Good idea, and aye casting implements can act as handles I think I already wrote that in. Also, I added it so projectiles (and onlly projectiles) can be boiled with an extra emote. Only does 1st degree burns, at most 2nd if its consistent, to not step on fire evo toes.

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On 4/10/2023 at 9:20 AM, Samler said:

It's quite literally the same non combat spell in current water evocation and the other elemental evocation.

 

And kinda funny how water evocation can infringe on frost witches, as water evocation initially existed prior to fw, could also be interesting to see if steam/boiling water could make a comeback or if water atronarch and transfiguration has better manipulation of hot water than the magic which studies water in all of it's forms, and is required to make said constructs.

kind of like how runesmithing existed b4 the current rendition of blood magic lol but look how thats turning out

 

could water evo always create ice? frost witches have existed for almost 10 years no?  at this point they gonna try to gatekeep what they got as hard as possible sorry to say it but thats reality of modern day lotc im just being realistic its going to be harder to get this passed with ice in the lore. might it still make it through, maybe, ultimately i wouldnt be surprised if it gets denied bc theres ice in it

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5 hours ago, Priceflash said:

kind of like how runesmithing existed b4 the current rendition of blood magic lol but look how thats turning out

 

could water evo always create ice? frost witches have existed for almost 10 years no?  at this point they gonna try to gatekeep what they got as hard as possible sorry to say it but thats reality of modern day lotc im just being realistic its going to be harder to get this passed with ice in the lore. might it still make it through, maybe, ultimately i wouldnt be surprised if it gets denied bc theres ice in it

Always, yes. I think frosties started being a thing around 3.0 while water evocation is older than that and always had ice, altho in the olden days it used to be: Water Mastered at T3, starting to do ice late T3 (last week or so), effective use of ice in T4, Mastery of ice in T5, as well as boiling water / steam T5.

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This lore has been denied. You will be sent a forum PM regarding the reasons for denial within the next 24 hours.

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