WuHanXianShi14

Won’t there be a bit of thematic dissonance seeing as the rest of the human playerbase is mostly based off of cultures from the mid to late medeival era? I understand its a fantasy world but it would still be out of place if 18th century baroque courtiers were hanging around with dudes in Togas and people in medeival clothes

I’m a bit torn, in the sense that I already have encouraged people to use lore to flesh out their culture, adding little bits of flavour to add depth to your culture’s RP. However, a lot of this lore falls into the same niche as already existing deities and I’m concerned we will end up with two groups of Nature-based deities. The Aspects are generally this server’s go-to nature gods, and they have the Mani- a pantheon on spirit-Animal-Prince-things, hence why I think the “Children of the Forest” concept here is problematic. I think the main question you have to ask yourself is this: How does my deity lore fit in with already existing deity lore? If there is an overlap (like with the Aspects) then you should work to create some sort of merger, like using the Aspects to explain the existence of your Deities for example, rather than just have your lore be an entire seperate, isolated appendage with no relation to anything it shares the same niche with. That’s how we get lore bloat and thematic dissonance and its whats led to @FlamboyantRage going auscwitz on magic lore. I suggest you do one of the following things: If no magic is involved, then RP out your gods without having canon lore for them Instead of having your Deities be isolated, standalone lore, tie them into existing lore. Perhaps they can *actually* have been ancient, powerful mortals that the Aspects or some Spirit made immortal, thus leading future generations to believe they were Immortal (The Talos/Elvhenan route). Or, make it so that your deities are just your culture’s interpretation of existing deities. For example, Cerridwen = Lagara. Oknar could be the Gorundyr’s interpretation of Anbella the dwarf god. Your idols all have animal avatars, which tie them in very conveniently with the already existing Mani lore: Tl;dr: Your lore is written well, but treads too deep into niches covered by existing lore. So to prevent lore bloat/lore redundancy, I highly suggest you merge your lore with already existing nature deity lore.

1. I agree, non-druids should have a means to summon a mani without a druid present. Although it should by no means be easy 2. eh, yes and no. I think smaller interactions with Mani dont need to result in physical blessings. Would be cool to convince one to summon rain or cure a blighted field for you or something along those lines exclusively in big event situations.

@GrimReaper98 Sadly, the culture we built we had to do in the very context of that Aenguldaemon/Tsuyose/SupremacyOps lore validation because it was the hand we were given. Canonists and low fantasy humans can afford to ignore it, since human RP frankly exists in a thematic bubble completely isolated from the other fantasy races. However, for a high fantasy, magic heavy race and culture and society, we have no choice but to ensure that our religion was up to the par set by other magics, gods, religions, etc. I'm down for a world where all gods and supernatural beings exist only in myth and any interaction with them is nonconclusive at best. However, we're in too deep for that to happen. And when a ton of cultures build their culture off of canonically existant deities that interact with them directly, asking us to RP our patron spirits as a purely cultural construct instead of a real entity is asking us to shoot ourselves in the foot. I don't think you'll achieve much taking out your frustration towards the state of LOTC's lore by focusing on this piece in particular. How the Mani turned out to be is nothing more than a symptom than the cause. What you want is to create a movement pushing for the involvement of ALL deific figures and supernatural magical entities in LOTC lore to take a back seat and no longer provide direct interaction with the mortal playerbase. If that happens, I'd be happy for Mani to exist in a cultural context, but until the state of the LOTC world is fundamentally changed, that isn't going to happen.

Some screenshots showing events that have centered around religious festivities revolving around the Mani. The first screenshot is of the Winter's festival which revolves around the summoning and revering of Amaethon, the Deer Mani. Both druids and non-druids were involved in this event. A second winter's dance was later done which resulted in Amaethon's ethereal form meeting the dancers. Generally, I encourage non-druids and newer players to attend these events, as it is a great introduction to cultural RP- as something beyond just words on a forum post, but something that is actually RP'd out, and has tangible roots in the game world. You are factually incorrect in your statement. The mani have, and will continue to apply to a wide variety of players, druids and non-druids alike. The whole point, in my case, was to enrichen and add substance to Elven culture as a whole. It makes absolutely no sense, in that goal, to limit interaction with the Mani to just a niche group, our druids. @Gallic Also has a psuedo-celtic human culture that worships the Mani in an animist style. The Mani aren't gods. They're lower level supernatural creatures more akin to niche spirits. A comparible from a similar fantasy setting would be the Crones in the Witcher 3. These creatures are not Gods, however, they ultimately are very powerful, do not age, have powers considered supernatural or "beyond mortality". The Witcher World is a good comparison in general, as that world is chock full of supernatural creatures, many of whom possess powers far beyond common mortals, many of whom are ancient, and have ascribed legendary, mythical or god-like status among humans, elves and dwarves. Yet these supernatural creatures are all ultimately part of the physical world, and share the same earth as your average joe peasant. They aren't gods, in the sense that they are omnipotent, all seeing, and all powerful. But, they are ancient, magical and something beyond a simple mortal. It's a very common theme in high fantasy. The real world comparables for Mani are the Shinto spirits of Japan, and many Animist spirits and supernatural creatures that exist in myth and folklore across peoples all over the world. My main source of inspiration is the indigenous people of the Northwest Coast of US and Canada, as its the region in which I was educated. In folklore like these, supernatural creatures baring animalistic or naturalistic forms interact regularly with humans. Indigenous folklore features hundreds of stories of humans coming across and interacting with serpent spirits, Raven gods, supernatural thunderbirds, giant cannibal spirits, etc. Same goes for Japan, like in Mononoke (an Anime, I know, but its Miyazaki so I trust his integrity to represent japanese folklore in a tasteful way) the Shinto Animal Gods like the Boar and the Wolf are powerful, old and supernatural- yet also just part of the world. Its largely this cultural folklore that I personally drew from when writing Mani lore. However, as we exist in a high fantasy world with magic, dragons, elves and whatnot, I see no reason why instead of it being just that- folklore, that there should not be old spirits and magical encounters that people should be able to participate in. In the real world, people tell stories of humans walking amongst magical creatures and ancient beings, in fantasy worlds- those stories are actually played out. because that's just what it is, fantasy. I don't like the concept of being able to interact regularly with actual Gods (Gods as we understand them in a Judeo-Christian context, ergo all-seeing, omnipotent, big man in the sky, etc) And frankly, I quite hate Aenguldaemon lore. That doesn't mean I don't think that supernatural beings should not roam the earth, and that humans should not be able to interact with them. And so there isnt. Your logic is that proof of the Mani's existence serves as a means to pressure people OOCly to have their characters worship them. That makes no sense to me. We have solid, canonical proof that Tahariae, Aerial, Xan, the Aspects, the Spirits and many other deities exist. Does that mean that people are compelled to worship them? Not at all. You can know something exists, and understand what it is, yet still choose not to follow it, or even to actively oppose it, because of idealogical or background related reasons. That's more or less the entire point of the IC movement of Xionism. In the Mani's case, it isnt like they would be going out their way to compel mortals to worship them either, as the lore heavily emphasizes that they are very elusive. There are a million and one reasons to justify NOT worshipping the Mani, whereas I could count the reasons to justify actually worshipping them on one hand, and most of them are born of a niche idealogy or racial background. Something existing does not mean there's any obligation either ICly or OOCly to worship it. That would work if that was the universal standard. Unfortunately, if we do that, then we put ourselves at a disadvantage against all the other figures of worship that are confirmed to exist. You get asked, why worship the Mani, who we don't even know if they're real, when there are spirits and aenguls and daemons who have literally shown their face to mortals and spoken to us? The precedent of LOTC lore is that supernatural beings interact with the mortals. So that's the precedent we must follow. With that said, its a moot point anyways, since whether or not you want Mani to exist, they do- they're written into canon lore and have been interacted with before in RP- this is just a clarification post. A culture needs substance. Substance is born of writing. I can see why playerbases like the humans dont need lore posts to justify their culture. They're a non-magical, very low fantasy environment. Unfortunately, for playerbases with a more high fantasy focus, whom interact with magic and supernatural motifs more frequently, we do need to work through the lore team, as any magic related phenomena cannot be approved without them. It ultimately broils down to your dislike of high fantasy vs low fantasy, which ultimately is your personal opinion. Every race has background lore, ergo, lore set in ancient times which was not actively RP'd out by players, but is instead backstory. The Humans have the story of St. Owyn, Harren, Aeldin, the formation of the church. The Dwarves have Khorvad and etc. The Elves have the golden pools (high elves) and the wood elves have their Seed history and folklore.

Mani have also become interwoven as a core part of elven roleplay and culture. As we've expanded upon the depth and substance of our lore over the years, the need to interact with the Mani in different ways has arisen. Mani and Mani summoning has been accepted and canon lore for awhile now. The only difference is with Mani becoming more and more prominent in cultural RP, regulation and rules regarding interaction with them need to be clarified to a greater degree, hence this thread. To further clarify, the Mani can be interacted with by any character, not just druids. Similar to how not everyone who worships the Aspects is necessarily a holder of Druidic magic, the same goes with interaction with Mani. Summoning Mani, as specified in the thread itself, is less like "Summoning" in the sense of being able to call upon a creature at will, and control it like a familiar. Mani are free spirits, and cannot be controlled. Summoning in this case is more like "Calling upon them' in the hopes they will deign to respond to you. Even then, Mani hold no gauranteed loyalties to druids, elves, or any descendant peoples.

Too bad it's already a thing, and has been used in rp for over a year.

Already is a thing, you told us to clarify it so we are. If shamans can summon spirits to buff them then we can summon nature demigods to a similar effect (without even guaranteeing any sort of success or boon, like shamanism does) Remove the double standard and we'll remove the lore and precedent for summoning mani

Whether or not you trust the LT regulating the lore has no baring on the lore itself, and isn't our concern tbh. I know delmodan won't let us get away with ****, butted heads with her too many times to know that

Again. This isn't a post about druids or druid magic. Regarding @Trinn the process of summoning a Mani is risky in the sense that the mani can simply choose not to help you, or worse yet (and quite plausibly) turn on the descendants, out of anger or offence. I think an inherent danger in the ritual summoning process could be a good idea, but I'm out of ideas on that front. Anyone who has ideas throw them at me.

This is not a post about druid magic. It's not even a post about druids.

Claiming druids can't interact with demigods on one hand while orcs interact with immortal spirits regularly is simply hypocritical and is not a valid argument. If you think creatures of this calibre shouldn't be approachable in rp, then it applies to everyone, not Just us. No double standards. When orcish spirits, aenguls, daemons and other deities are no longer approachable as well, then come talk to me. Mani are not allies to the druids and depending on the circumstance are just as likely to harm as well as help. You would know this if you read the lore. I'm not concerned if your only rebuttal to this is "I don't trust druids, they're **** rpers" as druids will not be rping as the mani. Mani are not druid lore, mani is mani lore. Your opinions on whether or not this lore should exist is irrelevant, since it already does, and has for more than a year. The mani have been actively involved in rp for a long time now, and this is just a clarification regulating HOW they are summoned. Not the place to debate whether or not they should be, since it's already canon lore that they can. Finally, claiming animist inspired lore based off real world cultures is a carbon copy of orcish lore both shows a profound lack of understanding of this lore, as well as an incredible amount of arrogance and self centredness. May be a hard pill to swallow, but it's the truth.

Don't really care much further. Any comments that mani shouldn't be summoned are moot. Especially by orcs rpers whose magic involves summoning spirits. Purely hypocritical. Mani have already been summoned in rp multiple times. It's already canon lore, and this is just a clarification piece giving it guidelines and boundaries. Just because your magic has superficial aesthetic similarities to my lore doesn't mean you need to scrape every bottom of the barrel reason to invalidate it (personally attacking most druid rpers in the process)

Exactly "Help, my wife is gonna leave me, what should I do" obviously won't trigger any sort of Mani response "Help, I think this ancient eldritch monster is goign to burn down large swathes of this primeval forest we live in" obviously would be more likely to trigger a Mani response. To address @Jentos @_Jandy_ Hate to break it to you buddy, but mineman orcs don't have a trademark on animist-type deities. It's almost as if different cultures all around the world have worshipped spirit-figures for thousands of years, and its natural for humans to see supernatural themes in nature around them (such as Animals, in this case) and turn them into religion. I don't care about Orcish lore nor do I have any desire to make elven culture anything like it. The inspiration from the Mani comes mostly from real world cultures. Mainly Japanese Shintoism, Celtic Paganism, and Northwest Coast Natives (Haida, Tsimshian, Salish and Wakashan). The name "Hamatsa" is actually the name of a Kwakwaka'wakw (native) potlatch dance involving supernatural birds, hence why I used it as a Mani's name. Amaethon and others are inspired by Celtic goddesses (Epona, goddess of horses) and the whole idea for Mani came about tbh when I watched princess Mononoke and was like 'woah animal gods is a cool idea yo'.

not one of the mani that were historically worshipped by descendants so it joined september prince's cause

Hate to break it to you, but we already have been. Flam just told us to pause until we wrote lore defining it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Yes, people write lore to enrich their playerbase's culture. If you disagree with this concept then we're at a core impasse and can only agree to disagree. As for mystery, it would be better thematically, if this were a world where it was the norm. Instead, there has been years of established events where deific and supernatural beings interact regularly with the "mortal" playerbase in the form of spirits, aenguls, daemons, drakaars, and yes- now Mani. The mystery and enigma based lore-ship has sailed. As for the Mani themselves, its stated multiple times over that they have minds and motivations of their own and are not to become glorified powerbanks for the druids. They harm as much as help, and some have even joined september prince. I won't address your comments towards the druid playerbase, as your comments from them seem to stem more from a personal bias drawn from your personal experience with them, rather than empirical evidence. Ultimately this isn't really introducing new lore anyhow, just more clarifying and setting in stone what's already there and has already been RP'd out.

Ruin how

Mani Additions/Clarifications This clarification is mainly meant to create a clear divide between two types of Mani Spirits for the sake of regulating how they may be portrayed in events. As Mani have power similar to say, orcish spirits, its important that the ET and LT portraying them do not betray the character of the Mani and their realistic reactions to the world around them. Greater Mani Descendant peoples have long worshipped the Mani. The practice of Animal-Prince worship was a natural evolution from the worship of the Aspects themselves. It originated among elven peoples on both Ancient Axios and Atlas, but later spread to groups of nomadic humans on the southern Atlasian steppe, as well as sometimes the odd dwarf, orc or hou-zi. Greater Mani have more longevity and power and incorruptibility than their lesser known cousins. This is largely due to their historical ties to descendant peoples who have worshipped them and made pacts with them. These Mani have grown used to the mannerisms of elves and men, as well as interacting with them, and are far less easily swayed towards chaos. They remain true to being a bridge between the descendant peoples, and the species with which they are tasked to lead. Greater Mani cannot be corrupted by the every day actions of men. The Greater Mani Morea - Prince of Wolves Considered to be the patron of leadership, ferocity and loyalty. Morea has come to be widely worshipped and is one of the most powerful Mani. Some wood elven clans like the Ithelanen even revere him as their chief deity. Ohowaki - Princess of Owls As elusive and crepuscular owls are, their Princess has come to be worshipped over time as a patron of Wisdom, Patience and Knowledge. Kwakwani - Prince of Ravens Raven is perhaps one of the most mysterious of the Mani. He commonly showed his face to the descendant people’s as a trickster with a heart of gold, and developed a following among the wood elves as a patron of nomads, artists, and spirituality. Moccus - Prince of Boars The old elven tribes commonly hunted boar as their main source of meat. When they took lives, they always honoured the Prince of Boars for his sacrifice. Moccus has come to be known as a patron of stalwart will, endurance and fortitude. Nemglan - Princess of Eagles Birds of prey have always been creatures that command reverence. Nemglan became known as a patron of freedom and swiftness to many old elven tribes, and eagle down became a symbol of wealth, power and luxury among cheiftains and archdruids. Amaethon - Prince of Cervidae Amaethon is known to be the kindest and gentlest of the Mani when it comes to their outlook on descendant peoples. He is one of the most widely worshipped spirit Princes among the wood elven people and is a patron of generosity, family and youth. Machana - Princess of Steeds Machana developed a niche following among a few old wood elven seeds who relied on their loyal horses for transporation across the great plains they inhabited. The horse’s importance to descendant society has ensured Machana remains prominent in the lives of elves and men. She is a patron of riders and travellers. Bolomorma - Princess of Bears Elves have learned much from the mighty bear over the centuries and adopted much of the same diet, mannerisms and values. Bolomorma is a commonly worshipped Mani, and is considered the patron of motherhood, as nothing is more fierce than a mother bear. Hamatsa - Prince of Dolphins As there were many old wood elven seeds that dwelled by the rivers and coasts, aquatic Mani naturally came to be worshipped. None more prominent than Hamatsa- prince of Dolphins. Who was said to be able to guide great schools of fish into the nets of greatful fishermen. He is the patron of sea-dwellers. Fishermen and Sailors. Sequana - Prince of Whales Sequana generally was worshipped by the same tribes that worshipped Hamatsa, and the two became synonymous. Generally, the Whale was worshipped by ocean-goers, whereas as the Dolphin was worshipped by those closer to the shore. Felixi - Prince of Bobcats Bobcats of all forms prowl woodlands and mountains across the natural realm. Nara may lack the regal nobility of his cousins in Lions, Tigers and Panthers, but his reach extends farther, and he lacks neither the grace, nor the deadly sharp precision of his fellow feline Mani. Lesser Mani / Forgotten Mani The Wolf embodies noble traits of loyalty, power and ferocity- and can be a loyal and useful partner to men and elves. However, the frog embodies less of these noble traits, and less reason to coexist alongside descendants. Thus, Morea- the Prince of Wolves came to be commonly worshipped, while the Prince of Frog’s name goes unknown. These are the Mani who never developed a large following among descendant peoples. Often times out of a deliberate attempt to remain isolated from all pockets of elven, dwarven and human civilization. Or, because their species is too few in number to influence descendant lives, or do not occupy a natural niche with any significance to human, elven and dwarven society. Lesser Mani have less sympathy, fondness or familiarity with Descendant mannerisms and can be more easily swayed towards being hostile towards them. A powerful enough being, (ergo September Prince) can sway the forgotten Mani to his cause as long as the Mani are not putting their own species in danger, or perceived to be betraying the Aspect’s vision for them. Summoning Mani Not everyone can chit-chat with a Mani. Even the ones most friendly to the descendants will only rarely show their face, and only if they are summoned with the proper respect and tribute, for a worthy cause. The method in which ancient peoples communicated with the Mani originated with the old Elven clans of Atlas, who worshipped the Mani as gods. Their druids devised a system of great ceremony to call upon the Mani to speak to them, or aid them in their struggles. Performing dances, rituals and sacrifices associated with the specific mani of whom one is attempting to summon will increase the chances of the Mani taking notice and gracing them with its presence. The greater the spectacle and more people involved, the greater the chance of a successful summoning. But one must beware, sacrifices and rituals they perceive to honour a Mani may end up insulting it. It very much depends on what is done. The success to which you manage to summon a Mani depend on how much effort you put into the ritual. For example, one druid, and no supporting cast, the success rate would be very low. Whereas if an entire spectacle was performed with multiple druids, dancers and sacrifices, the success rate would be very high. Even when summoned, the Mani are not guaranteed to help descendant peoples. They have free will of their own and will only help a Descendant cause if it makes sense with that Mani’s personality, motivations and does not put their species at risk, or betray the Aspect’s balance.

I will play the Haudosaunee/Iriqouis Native Confederacy

Will the North American theatre of the Seven Years War be incorporated? I'd love to play a Native American faction like the Mohicans or Hurons

Eli/IncompliantLore is literally the king of the dominion, he outranks Tau. I'd take his words for fact when he says the lands he pointed out are owned by the Dominion The "September Prince Eco-Prosperity sphere" is actually territory of the orcish horde of Izig now, the old krugmar capital was given to them Other than that, its a good looking map design, appreciate your efforts