Arafel

4 hours ago, pokos said:

I think this current map design has led to people being very reliant on using the fast travel hubs to get around, which results in less spontaneous RP, as there are less people to meet on the roads, as well as a number of other consequences.

 

It's fascinating to me, this phenomenon: making a world so large, populating it with many an imposing sight to see, but nothing to compel or justify the time-sink of exploring its landmarks, which results in the need for means to fast travel - rendering all that time and effort crafting such a landscape fruitless.

And then there's that second issue you mention; it leads to the consolidation, if not outright fossilization of RP centers where people are guaranteed to be. Thus, all other sites become devoid of life and the interactions that could spawn in or around them dissipate alongside the players.

Edit:

One thing I find fun to bring up whenever I run into massive worlds that could be argued bring a more "realistic" scale to a setting or its geopolitics is the fact this same issue with scale is part of the reason why, for most of our written history, the majority of a settlement's population could spend their entire lives never wandering yonder than their natural or human-made borders. Generations of humans would live and die in a single settlement because traveling to neighboring ones often times was too long and/or too arduous a journey to be worth their while. Why risk losing what little you have where you are for the ephemeral possibility of more, somewhere else?

8 hours ago, Polysemic said:

Shit take. My favorite part of LotC map design is that people pretend it's just making a Minecraft map and not 90% game design (by a bunch of people with little to no experience in the field, few exceptions excluded).

As an outsider looking at the world map linked on the forum tabs, it very strongly reminded me of Genshin Impact.

What is something you consider to be lost potential in the way pre-established lore is utilized on the server?

1 hour ago, SquakHawk said:

 

What can we expect? What is the mission for next map?

I want to note we won’t be seeing the new map until, at earliest, 2023. We have years of history at our backs. Lord of the Craft is defined by the extremely unique experience of player history defining the server's culture and modern day. Every decision is crafted by a player, and every memorable moment, crafted by a player. We really want to emphasize that for this map. Focusing on player interactions impacting the world and fostering memorable moments, as well as a further improving culture around conflict and roleplay; we want to create an experience that harkens back to maps of old. Our roots and our traditions make Lord of the Craft what it is. Innovation and new ideas are great, but without player freedom to Roleplay and shape the narrative, they are doomed to fail.

[...] Staff right now is in an extremely strong and capable spot; working all together, we can make the next map one which we can confidently state that we are proud of. Before, during, and after its launch.

Please, make it a point to develop this new world under the assumption you won't get to have a 10.0. You've said it yourself: Lord of the Craft has over a decade of history behind it. However, due to this seemingly endless cycle of wiping previous worlds and starting over with a "newer and improved" one, none of this rich history can be experienced by newcomers lest they wander around as spectators in the old world exhibits or spend an evening browsing the wiki - which itself is lacking a great number of events.

I know I'm not alone in stating I would give anything to be able to have my character inhabit a world where you can witness the work of past generations slowly but surely become the very foundation of future nations and civilizations. Forget about exploring pre-planned dungeons and ruins we, as players, hold no attachment to and quite frankly have little reason to care about in-character. I want to delve into archeological dig sites unearthing someone's long-forgotten mud hut and speculate as to what its purpose once was, who built it and what events transpired there. What purpose does it serve to shape the narrative, if the only mark that will outlive us is the hope someone will get around to recording it on the wiki, or that those we leave behind are able to remember and care to pass it on?

So, please, make it a core aspect of your vision to honor every memorable moment, crafted by the player, by bringing an end to this world-reset crutch past generations of staff grew all too comfortable with, forgetting the reasons why it ever even began in the first place.

On a side note: if you want to emphasize what is crafted by the player, do make it a point to bring back the ability for us to build on-site instead of copying everything over from a build server. Excluding the stuff that is to be present on release, make it a point to allow for us to build the towns and cities we and future generations of players are to have their characters inhabit. Allow us to make it our own not just during its development, but throughout its lifespan.

 

On 6/11/2020 at 5:08 PM, Archipelego said:

no official one. privately, when i submitted my draft, i got met with a stonewall of ‘no.’

That’s okay. We can always resort to bullet-shaped, dense, metal projectiles yeeted at 100mph through the use of slings like the Romans did back in the day. It’d be about as deadly as a .44 magnum with the caveat of slightly less stopping power and an effective range of 130 yards.

You know, I see people bringing up how LotC is based or loosely inspired by LotR as an argument for not having guns, and yet even back when the server had only just opened its doors in 2011 dwarves and humans had cannons going on.

16 hours ago, Glocky18 said:

No, they have no place on lotc. Simply because this is a /medieval/ fantasy server and I’m pretty sure the majority of the players want to experience that, and not the indutstry revolution. And not only that, sooner or later said firearms will take over the server thus lowering the playerbase... Yes I agree it would be something new, but its not LotC friendly, what will come next? WW1 trench warfare? No thank you I do not want to experience that, and many others would agree with me. 

The Adunians and I believe to some extent the Dwarves back in Anthos would perform drills involving the digging of trenches and construction of nests from which they’d shoot arbalests and repeater crossbows at their enemies, a tactic that was actually employed in a few battles at the time.

9 hours ago, Jamyei said:

No guns, because they would ruin the medievalish vibe. Already been stated but I thought I'd restate it. Also, cannons would be aight.

8 hours ago, Glocky18 said:

No, they have no place on lotc. Simply because this is a /medieval/ fantasy server and I’m pretty sure the majority of the players want to experience that, and not the indutstry revolution. And not only that, sooner or later said firearms will take over the server thus lowering the playerbase... Yes I agree it would be something new, but its not LotC friendly, what will come next? WW1 trench warfare? No thank you I do not want to experience that, and many others would agree with me. 

7 hours ago, The_Real_Draegon said:

No, Lotc is a medieval/fantasy themed server. This doesnt belong here, but in one of those gta mc servers. First firearms and then what? Nuclear rockets and airplanes that intercept dragons?

7 hours ago, LucaVerheij said:

I believe no, it will be an vibe-killer for the current style of the server. The Medival fantasy-ish theme of the server will be touched while it is the main part why the RP on the server is so good quality and fun. Also if this will be allowed theren where does it stops? Going to space? The techlock is there for an reason, to prevent that the Medival setting will dissapear. 

All of you need to grab google and start reading on what constitutes an actual Medieval Fantasy, why Fantasy as a genre has medieval aesthetics as a staple, how many mainstream fantasy role-play systems include firearms, and when firearms were first introduced in the west altogether.

Gunpowder Artillery is a medieval technology. It was introduced in the 13^th century in Europe in the form of siege cannons and hand-held cannons, and later matchlock rifles. The middle ages ended in the mid to late 15^th century. It is perfectly consistent with a “Medieval Vibe”. What you are all trying to argue is that you don’t personally want guns in the setting because you don’t like them and because you prefer an earlier medieval aesthetic (reminder that the Middle Ages lasted 10 centuries), and there’s nothing wrong with that. But please, stop perpetuating this ludicrous notion that firearms break the themes of the server simply because you are incognizant about the genre and tropes intrinsic to it, or choose to ignore the reality that they are compatible with the Medieval themes, even if they were only a part of it towards the end in our world’s history.

4 minutes ago, Jake the Dog said:

Haha musket line go brr

 

I don’t know why but reading this comment made me spit my tea. Thank you very much.

49 minutes ago, EndCallCaesar said:

Firearms would just lead to massive groups turning any CA or ET monster into swiss cheese. There’s no character development in that, it’ll just promote power-gaming. 

If you ask me, wanting to kill the big bad wolf as swiftly and efficiently as possible seems to be a perfectly reasonable objective for a monster hunter.

As for the part about character development, speak for yourself and let each player determine that on their own.

So I’m noticing that there are those who want 13^th and 14^th century firearms because they are compatible with the “medieval fantasy” theme of the server and expand upon the setting in new and interesting ways, and then there’s those who think they’re going to be getting muskets from the 18^th century and do firing lines.

4 minutes ago, blackhand7 said:

But how will this work? A crossbow hurts people by having a pointy bit at the end of its bolt, a musket by the speed at which the ball hits their target causing a shockwave. They’re fundamentally different weapons in terms of how they harm their target.

Don’t forget, the ball hits the target and potentially punches through, creating a larger hole on the opposite end of the object it hit. This is entirely dependent on the kind of protection the user was wearing, but the possibility is there.

Also, the damage would change depending on what material the projectiles are made out of in LotC.

 

Worst case scenario you can use slings like the Romans did, with bullet-shaped lead projectiles to pierce through plate armor all the same.

Edit:
Actually, a little quick research on the interwebs shows that they’d be just as effective as some 13^th century firearms, save for the part where those guns could create a fist-sized hole on their way out of a body or surface they hit. All you need is a projectile of the right mass and shape which could even be stone or some metal, not necessarily lead, and a long enough spin radius with your throwing arm or sling staff. You can punch a nasty hole through 20 gauge steel that way.

Since slings are safely covered within the current techlock, with the earliest surviving ones IRL dating back to 2500 BC, I don’t see what people are complaining about. They are quicker and easier to “reload”, far more accessible and cheap than firearms but noticeably more skill-demanding. As it stands, at least in practice, you’ve already got firearms in the setting. Have fun.

1 minute ago, Vorgraven said:

That's not why, you have slinged mud at eachother in SIXTEEN pages before this, sit down.

So far, I’ve seen people propose to limit firearms to early 13^th and 14^th century matchlocks and some early 17^th century flintlocks, the latter of which appear to be the point of contention and source of most of people’s concerns. However, I’ve also seen the majority of those opposing the introduction of firearms to lack an understanding of not only what the differences between High Fantasy, Historical (aka. Medieval) Fantasy and Low Fantasy are, or that firearms are a medieval weapon that is therefore compatible most fantasy sub-genres, not to mention already featured prominently in some of the staple fantasy role-playing games in the modern world. To this we can add a lack of understanding of the capabilities and intricacies of archery, crossbows and said medieval firearms.

You can’t have a proper discourse unless all those involved are properly informed on the subject matter. Personally, I’ve tried to contribute in that department. Where is the mud slinging in that?

6 minutes ago, Vorgraven said:

Lock this thread, we've all aired our shitty opinions, it's very clear there will not be a census on this topic, so drop it. 16 pages of back and forth is no good for anyone.

I agree with the lack of a census on the topic, so long as people continue to be misinformed and base their arguments on a lack of understanding of the relevant terminologies, objects of debate, literature, history, and fantasy sub-genres. There have been many instances in this thread of a common ground being attempted to be established by contributing information so people know what’s up. I don’t think it’s all “shitty opinions”.

Edit:
Rather, saying they’re shitty opinions is a disservice to the on-going discussion.

1 minute ago, argonian said:

We’re being told that we can’t move slightly past medieval tech by people who never RP’d medieval tech/societies at all. 

But see, firearms are a medieval technology.

1 minute ago, Phoenixshot3 said:

 

Of course I knew there was a period where they coexisted, my concern is merely that if we let guns come through now it might evolve into the era where they do go extinct. Once the step is taken some people will just continue to fight over it until it will become like the colonial ages.

They started to go extinct when rifling and more developed muskets became a thing. I believe the point of no return would be flintlock technology, but since flint and steel are a thing already it’s hard to lock those out should firearms be allowed with only matchlock.

4 minutes ago, blackhand7 said:

My video never showed crossbows, nor bows, penetrating plate Armour. They hit their targets by aiming around the plate, and going for the exposed parts. In fact, it actually shows them bouncing off of the armor at 20 yards.

This would be a more accurate demonstration of different types of crossbows being fired at a proper piece of plate armor.

12 minutes ago, camocat9 said:

This seems like an awful idea-- Lord of the Craft is advertised as a medieval fantasy roleplay server-- firearms take away from this element that I’m sure more than half the playerbase actually play for.

 

Lord of the Craft should stay a medieval fantasy roleplaying server-- if we keep unlocking more tech, this thing will be a high-school roleplaying server soon enough.

Careful with the Slippery Slope. Also, make sure you’ve got the terminology down to a tee. Is it a High Fantasy server or a Medieval Fantasy server? Because Medieval Fantasy as a genre (otherwise known as Historical Fantasy) has it as a signature trait to lean on the side of realism by employing our historical middle ages as a basis for referencing everything from technology, culture, society to mythology. By the technicality of its definition, Lord of the Craft would continue to be a Medieval Fantasy, if not become even more of one, by including early medieval firearms in the setting.

Edit:
To this I should probably add that medieval aesthetics are a staple of most fantasy sub-genres. What people commonly think of as “Medieval Fantasy” is often High Fantasy, while Medieval Fantasy proper could be referring to Historical Fantasy or Low Fantasy – both of which Lord of the Craft is most assuredly not.

Just now, Knightei said:

and for the “it’ll be power gamed” a toothpick can be powergamed it’s not a valid argument

Not to mention we have a moderation team whose job description covers the handling of such situations.

2 minutes ago, Lsuvsfar said:

Yeah no that’s absolutely wrong. Most crossbows and bows could not punch through plate armor. Perhaps if they had a very heavy draw and specialized arrow/bolt heads they could, but with most, no chance. Firearms were far more effective at punching through plate armor. Plus if you’re talking about an unarmored target, then guns are far more effective.

 

Overall, your average gun is far better than your average bow/crossbow. You could argue that the BEST bows and crossbows could compete with guns, but then the best early guns would beat them hands down.

Crossbows were specifically employed to pierce through contemporary plate armor. That was part of why they were banned in 1096.

1 minute ago, blackhand7 said:

 

As someone who practices archery, I’d just like to point out that the people using those bows are not only not doing a full draw, but they are using improper techniques for doing so. I don’t recall the last time I saw someone use four fingers to draw an arrow. On top of this, they're using the wrong type of arrowhead (not ones designed for penetrating armor, which were used), and bows with draw weights that are most likely between 70 to 160 pounds lighter than historical war bows.

Also that plate of armor looks to be stamped steel made out of modern rolled steel, which is uniform and does not have its thickness distributed so the most is at the front and the thinnest at the sides.

Just now, Chris (Acaele) said:

Personally I think that doing this would ruin part of the fantasy atmosphere of the server. It is intended to be a medieval high-fantasy style world, and I think technology advancing beyond a certain point takes something away from that. Remembering back to 3.0 there were constant powergaming issues surrounding cannons and other simple gunpowder-based weaponry. Even crossbows and similar cranked weapons took a couple years of powergaming and constant complaints to get clear cut rules established about how they can be used. It would take a lot away from my experience if firearms were added to LotC. 

Dungeons & Dragons is High Fantasy and yet they have firearms, taking nothing away from the genre it’s adhered to for nearly 50 years.

2 minutes ago, howard said:

I see a lot of magical/elf focused roleplayers coming out of the woodwork to bemoan the loss of “medieval fantasy” that would come with accepting firearms or whatever. But what part of the medieval setting were you actually roleplaying? Widespread disease? Theological arguments? The rise of manorialism? A guild-based economy? No “medieval” roleplay is actually taking place in these elven role-playing groups. The parts of the ostensibly “medieval” setting that they prefer are unique to no particular era, and do not require a techlock to maintain.

 

No one is going to come in and stop you from roleplaying an elf in a fantasy elf city growing out of a tree. That is not an argument being made. You do not need an exclusively “medieval” setting to do most of the roleplay you currently do, from wearing armor to living in a castle. There’s no reason you can’t roleplay that, and someone else can’t roleplay being a colonial musketman. It’s silly.

This. Also, reminder: D&D has firearms. Doesn’t make it any less magical nor any less of a fantasy.

Just now, Sarven said:

If firearms are to be added they should be extremely basic, like cannons and AT MOST rudimentary muskets that although deadly have a very high chance to miss. Firearms render all armour essentially useless, having them being widespread would fundamentally change LOTC.

This can be achieved by introducing matchlocks, maybe flintlocks, and restricting the tech progression so Rifling is not developed in the setting.