High_On_Math

Luthriel pondered what An-Gho meant when he said "Truth is Asioth." before smirking, "This is why one does not devote themselves to a being first, but to truth primarily.  Otherwise you begin to spew nonsense."

OOC: Satinkira asked me to change a phrase.  I was unsure if I should mention this for sake of metagamers, but he was ok with it.  the new phrasing reads:

"Nothing really phases me, anymore, after Kivdrona"

Several Years Ago:

     Luthriel and Remon walked into Cloud Temple together.  There, before their eyes, a dark elf infant lay at the base of a tree, abandoned.  Remon picked it up, "Who would leave a baby at Cloud Temple?"  Luth's eye widened, "An awful person.  Can I hold them?  Can I see the baby?" Remon gave the little thing to her, and she held it with her remaining arm.  "What do . . . what do you feed a baby who doesn't have a mother?" She asked Remon.  "How would I know?!" he replied.  She smiled fondly at the girl, "We'll figure this out."

A week later:

     Luthriel and Remon stood in the center of Ebonwood.  She stared at him with a hollow, melancholy look on her face, "The baby- I lost her," she muttered, almost in a whisper.  Remon, however, didn't seem too phased, "How? What happened?" he asked.

"I do ne remember!" Her eye began to swell with tears, "I was- was walking in the Ebonwood carrying the girl, and then- I do ne remember anything!  But a sick feeling, as though I remember the feeling of losing her.  When I try to think of it, all I can recall are the feelings."

"And? What kind of feelings?"

"Sick, Anxiety, as though I know I am going to die soon, and the child too would die."

"Luthriel, you died.  I can't say for certain, but it sounds like you did die."

"What?! Ne- I'm ne undead!"

"You are."

"Then I'm wrong!" she muttered, "I'm ne meant to be here, I'm ne meant to be here. . . . but even then, it's ne me I should be weeping for! The girl, what do you think happened to her!?  There's ne thing I can do - I failed.  Ne thing I can do to save her.  I do ne even know where to begin looking."

Remon shrugged apathetically, "You are not wrong.  Plenty of people are undead."

"What is wrong with you?!  Why are you ne - You act as though ne thing happened to the girl!"

"Nothing really phases me, anymore, after Kivdrona"

The events of the past year:

Luthriel stared at the empty bookshelves where countless blank books used to rest, waiting to receive the inked form of Iolas's words from beyond the grave.  She'd done her duty.  She'd spread his message.  All of Almaris now knew of the rumors: That Nim'bur was a servant of a daemon, and that he had killed Iolas.  She'd spoken with a paladin, and he'd agreed to apprehend Nim'bur if she could confirm the rumors to be true.  Soon, she would move back into that fateful Urguani manor and become a housemate of that kha once again.

The Xionist ghosts had said that daemons and anguls were responsible for the suffering of descendent kind.  She could believe at least that much of their message.  Another ghost had told her that perhaps, the reason she'd consistently lost any family she had over the years was because she loved them too much.  She'd loved family more than Godan, and thus, fate, the unstoppable servant of Godan's will, would take them from her.  It was not a half-elf's place to be happy, but to bear the curses that others cannot.  Looking down at the hound sitting next to her, she smiled slightly.  People cared for her, her dogs cared for her, Godan cared for her.  She just was not meant to have the family that she'd wanted.  Instead, she'd have to look forward.  She would find a way to protect descendent kind from Hell.  No matter who else had failed, she would succeed.  She had to.

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Luthriel returned from Kivdrona, missing her spear which had proven oh-so-useless in the battle against the . . . . the thing.  At least she had notes.  Information was what they had gone there for, anyway.  She walked into Edvard's forge, eager to share her discoveries with someone.  Veronna was there . . . delivering the news of Minuvas's death-state.  Any excitement that Luthriel had from her adventure vanished.

"NE!"

And thus began the woman's annoying rants about the importance of mandragora and blood lotus tea.

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Ebonwood died as Minuvas was comatose.  Elvenesse had threatened their princedom, and with a weak military force, comatose leader, and growing numbers of enemies, Veronna, now the leader of Ebonwood, had done what she thought was best to protect Ebonwood's people.  She'd submitted to Elvenesse's demands, and commanded Ebonwood's people to forsake their homes.

Luthriel stared at a picture on the wall, "Refugee again." she muttered.  Taking it off the wall with her only hand, which was an atronach hand, she muttered, "And still a pathetic one.  At least can I be a refugee with ten fingers?"  She stared out the window, "Maybe it's Godan's will that I ne have a home, either.  I suppose I will move to Nim'bur's place and begin prying him for information about daemons."  A long moment of silence followed, before she began crying.  Two dogs came up to her.  On sniffed her, then went back to sniffing the room.  Another sat next to her.  "Godan, dogs die!  They die younger than any human does.  And you- you do ne care!  Ne that you should, but- how am I supposed to do what is right when- when there's ne hope!  We all go to hell when we die, and surely do we all die.  You do nothing.  You created us with free will, expecting us to solve our problems ourselves, but what good is a will when my strength is so small?!  The only thing left to do is to resign myself to my fate and to find comfort here, in this life, but you continue to take everything from me!"

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The door of some large yet lonely manor in Urguan swung open.

"Nim'bur!" A woman's voice called out, "I'm moving back in! Oh, and maybe you could help me meet that daemon the rumors say you serve? Also- I'll need a large amount of space for . . . organic herb concoction creation"

The manor felt sickeningly empty.  Nim'bur approached from the stairs, not a daemon spawn but still a normal, friendly kha, though his eyes were blindfolded.

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In an empty cellar, Luthriel sat on a dirt floor, her back leaning up against the wall.

"There's ne point to my life.  I keep finding a home and then having to flee it, finding a family and then they turn on me or vanish.  Ne point in trying anymore."

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Walking one last time through the streets of Providence, Luthriel spotted Remon . . . 

Or, rather, a strange body wearing her friend's clothes.  Yet as she spoke to him, she realized it was him.  Something had happened.  Something that he wouldn't tell her.

As she stared at this person, a young boy ran up to them.

"Hello, do you know anybody who works at the orphanage?"

Luthriel looked down at the child absent-mindedly, still worried for Remon, "Ti, I do.  Why?"

"I don't have a family and was wondering if I could live there."

Remon replied, "Oren is no place for an orphan.  Go to the Vale, for it is safer there."

"But I've always lived here in Oren-"

Luthriel looked down once again on the boy, "If you would like, you may live with me. I'm living in a manor with much space.  It is ne a home, but it is . . . well it's more than a house, at least to me." The welcoming words rung out in a cold and hollow voice filled with melancholy.

"Really?! Thank you!!!!"

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 The trio arrived at Nim'bur's manor.  Remon took Luthriel aside.

"You're being cruel.  To bring an orphan to a house you yourself have said is not a home." Remon said in a stern tone.

"It's only because of the memories I have here.  This- this is the house where I took in the insane homeless man, Morbane.  There, by the door, is where he killed his pet fox.  The kitchen is where he told his young children that I was their mother.  And that road out the window . . . it's where my husband chased after Morbane, trying to kill him in revenge for what he did to me." she motioned to her missing eye, "And again, in the kitchen, I lay on the floor, a cripple, in between Morbane and the Druids, begging them not to hurt him, for he was a vampire.  And downstairs, is the room where I used to live with my husband.  And again, in the kitchen is where I last saw him . . . where he first saw me a cripple, held me and told me he would never leave me again, and then disappeared forever.  And upstairs . . . upstairs is where I left a girl . . . who I had adopted.  Out of guilt, I chose to abandon her rather than to make amends.

The boy has none of the memories I have, and this house doesn't have to be "

"Luthriel, you're not in a position to take care of a child.  You'll hurt him more.  Look at yourself, you are being selfish.  Take the child to the Haenseni orphanage, where he'll be safe.  But not only are you hurting him, but you're hurting yourself, too.  You'll fail.  You'll bring yourself more pain.  If you want a family this much, join the Azdrazi."

"But you told me ne to talk to them!"

"That was before I knew you were going to adopt a child."

The discussion continued, becoming desperately heated.  Remon continued pressing Luthriel, telling her that adopting the child would only bring more pain.

Ralphy overheard, and began crying.  Remon walked over, comforting the child in a soft voice, casting a glare to Luthriel.

"I knew I shouldn't have left the forest!  All I wanted was a family! I didn't- everyone I always talk to, I hurt!  My mom died giving birth to me.  I shouldn't have come here."

Luthriel walked over, muttering, "Remon was ne saying that you were going to hurt me.  He was saying that I was going to hurt you."

Suddenly, she ran out of the house, crying.

After a long conversation with Ralphy, Remon emerged from the house to find Luthriel crying on the front porch. "Go and comfort your son." he said.  She looked at Remon with pain in her eyes, unsure of what to do.  Ralphy declared that he did not want to be a bother to people, and that he was going to live in the forest again.

Remon approached Luthriel, whispering, "I'll give you one final chance.  Keep him safe.  Make sure he lives a happy life.  And if you don't . . . he won't be the only one to suffer, believe me.  Am I clear?"

And with that, Remon left Luthriel with her new son, Ralphy.

The door of some large yet lonely manor in Urguan swung open.

"Nim'bur!" A woman's voice called out, "I'm moving back in! Oh, and maybe you could help me meet that daemon the rumors say you serve? Also- I'll need a large amount of space for . . . organic herb concoction creation"

The manor felt sickeningly empty.  Nim'bur approached from the stairs, not a daemon spawn but still a normal kha, though his eyes were blindfolded.

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In an empty cellar, Luthriel sat on a dirt floor, her back leaning up against the wall.

"There's ne point to my life.  I keep finding a home and then having to flee it, finding a family and then they turn on me or vanish.  Ne point in trying anymore."

Lamentations of a crazed, middle aged, badly scarred half elf woman can be heard!

"Give Minuvas mandragora tea!!!! You're killing him! Let me see him! None of you know anything.  Blood lotus tea too! Frick you, did you at least give him blood lotus tea?!"

REMOVE LOTC TECH LOCK.  MAKE LOTC FANTASY SCI FI.

I cant tell if this is a goodbye post or a cry for help

Luthriel squinted, muttering, "Mika you bloody artist! Please craft my arm soon.  I'll need a way to defend myself.  But, in the meantime, " She spat, "Ti, I think I have what it takes to ne allow my soul to be sent to some dark ocean of torment.  Kill me and I'll come back.  I know I will."

"Sounds hedonistic", muttered an elfess.  "Still, I might go to meet new individuals.  Though as for a dress, I'll have to spend more time in deliberation."

Luthriel's head sunk, unsure of what to do.  She had predicted that Ivarielle would be more blood thirsty than Braxus, but no one had listened.  For now, however, the least she could do was have a talk with Lynnette, that elfess who thought herself noble yet fought for Ivarielle.

@Jenny_Bobbs

[!] Evo'lur receives a letter from an ata.

"AH, another will of Malin divined through the dark craft of sitting around and talking.  We have quite the system, don't we, Mr. Fluffy Butt?!"  This absolutely crazy elfess would squeal at her dog, before chucking a glass bottle at the wall and beginning to cry, "Why don't we start an orphanage?!  Where we teach all the orphaned Mali children to follow logic?!  Why-  why- WHY WONT PLUME LET ME ADOPT HIM!?!?! HE'S GOING TO DIE!? EDVARD IS KILLING ORPHANS!"

Mr. Fluffy Butt politely cleared his throat and whined a little, reminding Luthriel to take her oracle wood.

Luthriel walked around in the woods, alone, muttering to Godan, "All the good ones are dead.  All the good ones are dead.  How are we supposed to bring the goal to fruition?  All the good ones are dead."

Tears streamed down her cheeks.

"Deniers are an active threat to Malin's return, and may need to be ceremoniously removed if they cannot be redeemed."

For the first time in her life, Luthriel felt alien to her elvish half.  In her heart, she thanked Godan for blessing her with at least one human parent.

"It seems," She muttered, "from my experience, that the only way for an elf to come to belief in God is through a rare miracle.  There . . ." She pauses, "there must be some sort of second curse on elves making them want to worship creations rather than The Creator.  Mali kind is . . . Hopeless."

She closed her eye and muttered a quote from Gandalf, "It is in men that we must place our hope." 

In a sudden rage, she began penning a letter to a Cannonist friend

"Minuvas has said that Cannonism is basically incompatible with Malinism and that Mali who stand firm in their denial of Malinism may need to be executed. . ."

In a karen-esque touch, she added, "They placed me in housing that was then assigned to become an ancestors shrine. They used bloody eminent domain to take a Cannonist's dwelling and turn it into a place of pagan worship.  They bloody obviously did this on purpose.  I'd ask to speak to their manager, but he's probably dead or at least he's never around."

@KaiserJacobII

OOC: im sorry you had to pk, Gavin.  Like super sorry.  it sucks.  

*virtual hugs*

Luthriel starts freaking out, "WHO IS HOLDING MINUVAS HOSTAGE?!!?!?!?!?!!?"

She pours over the document, trying to find some hidden pattern in the words.

Luthriel stared in horror at the missive.  Haense aristocrats had been hanged.  How hard would it have been to keep 2 men prisoner?  She wondered if she knew the men who were hung.  She wished she could have been there to at least be a single voice in protest.  It seemed these men were hung, not immediately having their necks snapped, but being strangled.  

Her loyalty to Oren grew during its defeat and was challenged during its violent, gloating victories.

Luthriel was silently staring, ooking at the Urguan Oren border from the Orenian side of the river.  "To capture a king is a much nobler thing than to laugh at a peasant boy's death."

Luthie had the missive reprinted with different spaces so it would be a lil easier to read.

On Excommunication

By Luthriel

Note:  The following arguments rest on the premise that Godan is just.  This belief is taken by faith.  To prove that Godan is just would take much time and would prove to be a distracting tangent.  Since most Cannonists already believe this fact, I assume it to be true and base my arguments off this.

•   Excommunication: Defined as the process by which the Cannonist Church declares that someone is no longer allowed to visit a church.
•   As only the scrolls are Godan’s word, I only accept the scrolls as textual support for an argument.  I concede that at best the Texts are accurate implications of the Scrolls.  However, since the Texts are laws created based off of the Scrolls, they are secondary in nature.  The Texts are

                #1 written by fallible humans

                #2 propositions based off of the Scrolls, not propositions in their own right.

          Since ideally the Texts are based off of the already written Scrolls, the texts should not be necessary for defense of an argument.

•  The Pontiff does have spiritual authority.  This spiritual authority entails a position of teaching and spiritual leadership like that of a father with his children.  The pontiff’s responsibilities are to instruct the Church in the truth and to resolve conflict within the Church.  The Church’s responsibilities are to listen to and to respect the Pontiff, and to submit to his words like children submit to their parents.

 Excommunication, a mere declaration of humans, is incapable of severing a repentant and Godan-fearing soul from Godan's unstoppable mercy.

     1.      Excommunication is a process by which the Cannonist Church declares that someone is no longer allowed to visit a church.

     2.      The Cannonist Church is not infallible.

     3.      If the Cannonist Church can make mistakes or lie in declarations, then it is possible for excommunication to be declared on someone who is innocent.

     4.      Godan would not want someone who is innocent to be cut off from the Church.

     5.      If it is possible for excommunication to be declared on someone who is innocent, it is possible for the Cannonist Church to excommunicate someone against Godan’s will.

     6.      If it is possible for excommunication of an individual to be against Godan’s will, then excommunication is not necessarily Godan’s will.

     7.      If excommunication is not necessarily Godan’s will, then it has no impact on whether an individual is shown mercy by Godan.

Note: By the previous definition stated above, excommunication strictly refers to the declaration of the Cannonist Church.  It is shown that the statements, “excommunication is Godan’s will” or “excommunication reflects Godan’s will” is not necessarily true or false if the Cannonist Church declares an excommunication.

Objection 1: The pontiff is the supreme authority.  Therefore if he excommunicates someone, his excommunication has spiritual authority and therefore is valid.

               Analogy:

     1.      The Scrolls state that kings have a divine right to rule and are given authority by Godan.

     2.      Kings can make mistakes.

     3.      Kings can punish innocent people.

     4.      If kings have the authority to rule, given by Godan, and kings can punish innocent people, then:

     5.      King’s punishment of innocent people has authority

     6.      If the punishment has authority then the punishment is valid.

     7.      If the punishment is valid, then Godan respects the punishment.

     1.      The Scrolls state that pontiffs are given authority by Godan.

     2.      Pontiffs can make mistakes.

     3.      Pontiffs can declare innocent people excommunicated.

     4.      If pontiffs have authority, given by Godan, and pontiffs can excommunicate innocent people, then:

     5.      The pontiff’s excommunication of innocent people has authority.

     6.      If the excommunication has authority, then the excommunication is valid.

     7.      If the excommunication is valid, then Godan respects the excommunication, in this case by allowing negative spiritual consequences in the afterlife.

Rebuttal:

     Premise 5 is not correct.  The pontiff has authority to teach and to resolve conflict within the Church.  The authority of the pontiff does not mean that everything he does, including his mistakes, has authority in  Godan’s eyes.  By giving the pontiff authority, Godan has given the pontiff the responsibilities to teach and resolve conflict and has given the Church the responsibility to listen to and respect the pontiff.  It does not follow from this that Godan shall follow the pontiff’s authority in excommunication and allow innocent people’s afterlife to be harmed from the pontiff’s mistake.

Objection 2: Excommunication, whether an innocent or guilty person is excommunicated, has spiritual consequences because it prevents someone from going to church and receiving penance.

               Grant, for the sake of argument, that a declaration of excommunication itself does not have spiritual consequences:

     1.      There are two possible scenarios: an innocent person is excommunicated and a guilty person is excommunicated.

     2.      A guilty person was barred from the skies before the excommunication.

     3.      The excommunication, a statement that the guilty person will not be going to the skies and that they shall be removed from the church, coincides with the person’s actual afterlife.

     4.      An innocent person excommunicated is physically barred from going to church

     5.      Going to church is necessary for going to the seven skies because it is the Church that gives the sacraments.

     6.      If going to church is necessary for going to the seven skies, then an innocent person who has been declared excommunicated by the pontiff will not go to the seven skies.

     7.      The excommunication, a statement that the innocent person will not be going to the skies and that they shall be removed from the church, coincides with the person’s actual afterlife.

     8.      In both possible cases, the excommunication corresponds with the person’s actual afterlife.

     9.      If all possible excommunications correspond with the excommunicated person’s actual afterlife, then all possible excommunications are true.

     10.   If all possible excommunications are true, then it is irrelevant that excommunications only reflect or indirectly cause a spiritual outcome in the afterlife.  Excommunications may still, for all practical intents and purposes, be seen as having direct spiritual outcomes.

Rebuttal:

     1.      Godan is just.

     2.      An innocent person excommunicated is physically barred from going to Church.

     3.      Going to church is necessary for going to a better afterlife because it is the Church that gives the sacraments.

     4.      If going to church is necessary for going to a better afterlife, then an innocent person who has been declared excommunicated by the pontiff will not go to a better afterlife.

     5.      If Godan is just, and Godan allows an innocent person who has been declared excommunicated by the pontiff to not go to a better afterlife:

     6.     Then it is just for Godan to allow an innocent person who has been declared excommunicated by the pontiff for a sin they did not commit to be barred from a better afterlife, which is absurd. 

     By reductio ad absurdum, we see that Godan cannot be both just and the Church being necessary for going to a better afterlife.

     I choose to believe that Godan is just, and as a result, The Church is not necessary for going to a better afterlife. 

     If the Church is not necessary for going to a better afterlife, then premise five of the original objection is not true. 

     If premise five of the original objection is not true, then the excommunication, a statement that the innocent person will not be going to the seven skies and that they shall be removed from the church, does not correspond to the innocent person’s actual afterlife.

     If the excommunication does not correspond to the innocent person’s actual afterlife, then excommunications do not have causal power.  At best, they only reflect the person’s place in the afterlife, and at worst      they do not reflect it at all.

     If excommunications do not always correspond to the excommunicated person’s place in the afterlife, then they do not have direct spiritual outcomes, but rather reflect a fallible Church’s best interpretation            of what has already happened.

 Counter Rebuttal:

     1.      Godan created us.

     2.      If Godan created us, we belong to Him.

     3.      If we belong to Godan, then He has the right to do whatever he wants with us, and it is still just.

     4.      It is just for Godan to allow an innocent person who has been declared excommunicated by the pontiff for a sin they did not commit to be barred from a better afterlife.

Rebuttal to the counter rebuttal:

     There are three possible ways for morality to have originated:

     1.      What is right and what is wrong is defined by what Godan created us for.  Godan can decide anything is right and anything is wrong because it is Godan who creates the world as well as morality.

     2.      What is right and what is wrong exists outside of Godan, and Godan must follow the rules of morality as a perfect being.  We too, ought to follow these rules, but as imperfect beings we do not follow them               perfectly.

      3.      What is right and what is wrong stems from Godan’s character.  Godan is loving, good, merciful, and just.  As creatures made in his image, we originally were made to be good as well. However, we were given free will and the ability to choose if we want to allow our actions to reflect Godan’s image.  When we break the laws of morality, we are not just breaking arbitrary rules that Godan imposed on us.  We are rejecting that Godan’s loving, just, and merciful character is supreme and rejecting our being made in his image, instead choosing arbitrary rules for ourselves to follow  that we create on a whim.

The counter rebuttal holds fast if you believe in the first explanation of morality.  However, the first definition is incompatible with the statement “Godan is just”.  Instead, the first statement implies  that “Godan created the concept of justice” and that he could easily have made it a moral imperative for us to be unjust.  Because I choose to believe that Godan is just over that Godan created the concept of justice, I reject the first explanation of morality, and therefore I reject the counter rebuttal’s conclusion.

In conclusion:

If someone is innocent, then no matter what the Pontiff declares, they are not harmed spiritually, as the spiritual power does not come from the Pontiff’s declaration, but from Godan.  This is not to say that the Pontiff has no authority, but that his authority does not involve the sentencing of souls in the afterlife.  The Pontiff is given authority to instruct and to arbitrate, and this should be respected, but he is not given authority to override justice.

Excommunications defined as a document given by the Pontiff carry no spiritual significance.  Excommunications as defined as Godan’s barring an individual from the seven skies carry  all spiritual significance.

On the practical level, a church ought to be a safe community, and it will often be the case that dangerous people need to be kept out of the church.  The process by which the Church excommunicates individuals has many safeguards, therefore it is unlikely that an excommunication is incorrectly made, and we should abide by an excommunication by preventing excommunicated individuals from attending church.  However, upon evidence demonstrating an individual innocent of their supposed sin, the excommunication ought to be called into question. 

This is analogous to our abiding by the punishment given to an individual in a court of law.  It is possible for a court of law to make mistakes but do to the higher probability of a correct conviction than an incorrect conviction, to get the maximally beneficial results for society we ought to abide by all convictions from a court of law unless those convictions are demonstrated to be incorrect.

The world is imperfect and all we can do is strive to produce the maximally beneficial results.  Godan allows this imperfection to create trials for us.  As we experience trials, we become stronger.  And in the skies, there are no longer any trials.  So, a moment of unfairness for an innocent individual being blocked from the church is turned by Godan into a trial that brings the innocent person closer to Godan.  The blocking of a guilty and unrepentant person from the Church keeps the Church safe and is perfectly just and fair.

Luth wanted to butcher Bub and hang his corpse up somewhere for all to see.

Luthie daydreams about how there's probably an infinite amount of mathematics and science to learn and discover, machines to invent, and art to create, and wishes people blessed with long lives would consider drinking from this infinitely deep well of thrill and joy instead of doing dumb stuff like killin' peeps.

Luthriel started crying when she looked at the image on the missive. Not that she hadn't seen the most horrible atrocities, but that she had seen them and rather than being desensitized to violence, she had become sensitized.

I LOVE FALLING GUY AND HIS SKINS ARE SO BASED AND HES AN AMAZING PERSON GET HIS SKINS