Adran

First, only the people who are interested in this kinda thing and the friends of the people proposing the idea would actually bother to comment. Now, you raise an important point here in that, yes, there would be some people who don't know what they're talking about who would comment. There are still ways to keep it open with that in mind. We could, for instance, have anyone able to post their thoughts on a thread, but only a few people would make the final decision (I don't know if that's what you already had in mind). But I definitely think that everyone should at least be able to have a say. Science is different from lore in that anyone could be qualified to know about it regardless of position on the server, and therefore with a wide player base, we would have access to more information in order to make a more qualified decision. I am sure that we can eventually agree on a method by which many people can have a say, even if it takes some trial and error. Of course, this may all be a moot point since the whole idea may get rejected anyway. Also, cliques forming is not a given. You simply need to find the right group of people, which may admittedly be difficult. I'd also like to add that scientific developments can provide for more interesting rp than just the science itself. There could, for example, be conflict between certain religions and technologies, as happened in our world. There could also be events where, say, some tinker unveils his latest contraption and it all goes horribly wrong, with explosions and the like. You can also combine science with magic, for example, a hydromancer can power a steam thing by actually summoning steam, thereby converting magical energy into mechanical.

Answer: Why should the Science Team not consist of the entire community? If the clique is everybody, then there is no clique. Some form of a general poll could be used to decide if an idea is acceptable. Alternatively, there could be some sort of rotation system, in which anyone who wants to can serve a term on the science team, but then they would have to step down to let others review in their place. That would inhibit the formation of cliques. However, if there were to be an exclusive Science Team, I still call dibs.

Yes, my point exactly. But there doesn't have to be a Science Team to decide if it's accurate, or at least not ONLY a Science Team. Anyone should be able to do peer review. Although if there is a science team I have dibs on a spot.

Why a science team? What if anyone can post about it? Science is not like magic in that anyone, even if they know nothing about LotC, has equal footing and opportunity. Also, it's worth a try, even if it does fail miserably. Also, Hai Master Lark.

I, for one, really like this idea. Science and scientific advancement has always been an important part of society. Therefore, it has by definition RP potential...if used correctly. But I would like to hear more about the specifics. Can you compile a short list of specific technologies you think it would be reasonable for characters to invent, with explanations for each one? That way, the Lore Team (and the rest of us) can understand better what would be the results of implementing this idea). For example (I'm not saying that this specific idea is a good one; it's just a format that you could use to explain specific ideas): The sextant: The sextant was an instrument used in the Medieval/Renaissance era to measure angles. Using measurements of the altitudes of various stars, explorers could figure out with reasonable precision their latitude. Uses in-game: This can be used as a way to justify checking your z coordinate in the f3 window, at least at night, when you can see the stars. Why it's reasonable: This is reasonable because it is firmly grounded in reality and is based upon relatively simple principles of mathematics and geography. It is entirely believable that this could have been invented by characters in the LotC universe.

Possibly. But I'm going to give a try before I do that. BrandNewKitten is right here. In real life, humans cannot freeze and unfreeze the same way frogs can. However, Hosper's example shows the theory that cells can be frozen and unfrozen and still survive. The larger-picture organ stuff is where the clerics need to help a little with revival. Thank you again to everyone who has submitted input about this idea. I've taken everything that has been said so far into serious consideration, and here is my conclusion: This idea is acceptable in terms of adhering to the guidelines of lore (in my opinion). Moreover, it doesn't harm roleplay in any serious way. However, it seems to be rather unpopular. This is understandable, as it is by no means a necessary addition to LotC. Moreover, I see increasingly that snow elves and absolutely anything associated with them is not held in high regard. Thus, I'm beginning to doubt that, even if it is accepted, it's all worth it. You have brought up some important criticisms. So, I think that it's time to wrap this up. I'd like to sum up here the arguments for and against this idea. For: 1. Provides a new way to practice medicine, giving a doctor an additional tool or a mage a secondary skill. 2. Gives unique roleplay to anyone involved. 3. Gives the snow elves a little boost with lore and cultural flavor. (The implications here are more important than the statements. For example, the fact that they came up with it through trial and error but also science demonstrates the value they assign to intellect and science, even if it's not clear at first what the practical applications are. The fact that nobody else has yet found out about it shows how isolated they can be. Etc. It's open to interpretation, of course. Moreover, if this is accepted, I can definitely expand the lore to at least give it some detail, which the snow elves sorely lack.) 4. Come on. You know the name sounds cool. 5. Up to a certain point, it is realistic. 6. It's interesting (at least, I think it is). Against: 1. Provides a new way to practice medicine, which is annoying to clerics. 2. Gives unique roleplay to everyone involved, which can be interpreted as too "special snowflake." (Just curious, but does the origin of that phrase have anything to do with snow elves?) 3. Gives the snow elves a little boost with lore and cultural flavor, which is bad because everyone hates snelves. 4. God, what a stupid name (sorry BrandNewKitten). 5. There are points where the bounds of realistic science are stretched. 6. It's not necessary, it's boring, and it's stupid. I am also going to post that summary on the main post. Tell me if there's anything I neglected to mention there. I appreciate everything said so far; the support has encouraged me to keep working; the criticisms to keep working and tinkering with the idea even after I thought I was done. I think that, unless there is anything else that needs to be said, this is ready for the Lore Team to review.

1. Sorry, but...it's not for a nation, it's not for the snow elves...the only way it relates to snow elves is that they invented it. 1. It is unrealistic. You're right. But there is a lot about it that is accurate, and there's nothing more I can do about the rest except wait for the Lore Team. 2. Thanks. I didn't know that. I was somewhat confused because I've received replies from people telling me that biology in LotC doesn't work like the real-life version. 3. Yup, that's part of the fun. 4. Meh. I feel like...if you have a person doing conventional resuscitation while a cleric fixes things that he actually can, we can increase that percentage. Of course, it can't be perfect. But it doesn't have to be impossible. 5. Hm...hadn't actually realized that; thank you for telling me. However, since, as you say, resuscitation can be performed, I see no reason why it can't be supported by a cleric (for example, the cleric could prevent the organs from malfunctioning after they begin to work. 6. Yup. 7. Yup. 8. Yup. You misunderstand me again. I was asking in terms of lore, not game mechanics. The monks revive people nearly all the time for characters who are played by real people...except not always, and not for everyone else. Why? 9. Again, it depends on your definition of "dead." It's all about perspective here. 10. Um...this is obvious. The major processes in the body stop (the heart stops pumping, the spleen stops filtering blood, the stomach stops digesting food), but down inside the cells, they're just moving reeeeeeaaaaallllyy ssssllllooooowwwwwllllyyyyyyy. Unless they're frozen solid, which is bad. 1. Well, we're talking about extracurricular here. Cell damage is a given. That's why it only works for short periods of time. 2. Not...quite. There's a thing called heart failure. The heart stops, several major parts of the brain begin to shut down, but the patient is still alive. In this scenario, the patient is not completely "brain-dead." Brain death only really occurs when the brain has stopped functioning and the individual cells have shut down. But we're not letting them shut down. Just stopping for a while. 3. Hm...we'll let the Lore Team decide that. But that's just the generalized version of it. 1. Stop trying to associate me with the rest of the snow elves. I am not in any way affiliated with them nor am I responsible for their past actions. 2. You try developing a culture when your people are divided, have almost no official lore, and are universally reviled. Summary: In short, no. This is not perfect. I never said it was (actually, I might have, but if so, then I rescind that now). There are parts of it that don't entirely hold up under real-world scrutiny. But...real-world scrutiny? In a world where bathing in a pool of strange liquid dramatically changes your DNA in a way that completely changes your appearance but is not harmful at all? In a world where the undead, whose bodies have stopped functioning...still function? In a world where willing suspension of disbelief is a prerequisite? Up to the Lore Team.

1. (I'm making this extra big because it's extra important) Well...this is the part on which, as I said, I'm kinda vague and uncertain. One of the main parts of cryogenics that damages the cells most is when the patient is frozen really quickly. I feel like, with medicinal magic and a slow freezing process, you can...with a little leap of faith (because I don't even know if LotC races have cells or not) and a little creativity sort of justify it not irreparably damaging the cells. I do, however, agree that the process should cause some damage to the cells. That could cause a number of outcomes, including weakness, memory loss, or even death. However, I will restate that none of the other magics makes biological sense either. For example, "What part of the brain is used to summon matter from the void? How does it work?" LotC and really all fantasy and science fiction universes require what is called a willing suspension of disbelief; that is to say, if there are some plot points that are a little fuzzy...that's okay. I could go on to point out a number of things about LotC that make even less sense, such as "Why do some people die forever when the monks are able to resurrect anyone?" But there's no point. As long as it's fun to roleplay, there's nothing wrong. (By the way, even if you do have some answer for the question about the monks, there will be some awfully strange statistics to explain. Many people will die on their first death, yet some will die hundreds of times without actually dying.) 2. Not actually true; there are some strange people who decide, when they have a terminal illness, that they want to go into cryogenic storage immediately. 3. Yup. That would be true if we lived in a world where cryogenic revival was not possible. That's the difference between our world and LotC that I'm trying to establish. They wouldn't be called clinically dead anymore. Just...resting. But that's a pedantic and not very relevant point anyway. 4. So, this is the entire point of cryogenics. An ordinary person who dies, say, from blood loss, will have his cells die off one by one until one or more of his vital organs stops functioning. The goal here is that, by changing the temperature, we slow down all body processes dramatically. This means that cells don't die immediately because they simply can't do anything. And yes, I was implying that the heart stops, which, as I said, would cause blood flow to stop to the other organs. But they don't need it. They can't do anything. And that includes dying. Note, when I say they can't do it, what I really mean is that they can only do it really slowly, which is one of the many reasons this process has a time limit. 5. That's why you need outside medical help. Since realistic technology is unable to revive cryopatients, let's try unrealistic technology: clerics, for instance. Or alchemists. 6. See, the patient is only dead for some definitions of the word dead. And besides, since people can perma-die...clearly, the monks are imperfect. It seems reasonable to assume that a less dead body is easier to restore than no body at all. Either I'm right about that, or someone needs to explain to all those people who roleplay monks not being perfect or taking bodies back to the Cloud Temple that they're all wrong. Because I've sure as hell gotten yelled at for roleplaying that the monks even revived me once. I mean, why else would I wake up in Cloud Temple with nothing and no memory of recent events? Also, it seems reasonable to assume that since clerics have magical all-healing light, they can perform operations as simple as making a heart start beating, something that can be done without magic anyway. I understand that if people don't want their characters to die, they won't die. But the same goes for clerics. RP is RP, even if it doesn't affect game mechanics. 7. Well. We in LotC are not less technologically advanced; we're differently technologically advanced. Magic is a wonderful technology and is far more powerful than any modern-day technology except possibly the nuclear ones and the internet. 8. I understand that, and I'm totally willing to talk to people who think that this could be improved or have questions to ask about it. Thank you for your input. Summary: (Extra big again, extra important again, for the 90% of you who won't actually read anything else I've written so far) This idea is mostly accurate by real world standards, and moreover, you...can't attack this for being unrealistic by real world standards anyway. LotC is separated from the real world not just by technology but by imagination.

This is awesome! Makes me wish I could actually draw...or paint...or create computer graphics...

1. That's the beauty of it: it's not at all exclusive. Anyone at all can learn it, and nobody knows it yet on the server. It allows for cultural diffusion and interaction. 2. What do you mean by "juts?" It doesn't interfere with anyone else's magic. In fact, you could say the same for the medicinal magic off of which this is partially based, and that seems to have been accepted just fine. 1. The patient can still do that, and, as I explained, there are plenty of situations in which the patient does not have to be unconscious anyway. 2. I also described complicaitons that can ensue, such as a blood vessel bursting, a limb turning blue, or even the ice getting through the mage's defenses and entering parts of the body it shouldn't. Moreover, the patient can often be conscious and able to talk and react. Oh, come to think of it, another application of this could be to numb a patient before surgery to reduce pain, but that wouldn't really facilitate rp, so I'm not going to go into that more. 3. I will restate. Had you actually read the lore, you would have noticed that it takes even an experienced mage thirty seconds to form a basic cryolayer, and that's not always enough anyway. Also, any science fiction story that has instantaneous freezing is either plain wrong or has some sort of ridiculous technology, because freezing the body that quickly would cause basically all the cells to burst. 4. I will work on providing a good example like the ones Jade used in her healing emotes guides. Good idea. 5. So, this is where the departure from reality really occurs. Up until the point where we need medicinal magic, this is based firmly in science. The addition of medicinal magic is the one tricky part of this lore and requires the biggest suspension of disbelief on the part of the reader. Basically, my idea is to combine various ideas expressed by Jade in such a way that it almost makes sense. The issue here is that cryonic theory is not really complete in real life, so we can't be exactly certain how to make it work here either. It requires faith and creativity to make it seem feasible. The arcane shielding, for instance, could be used for big things (major blood vessels, things like that). It's up to the practitioner to determine how to use medicinal magic best. Also, the snow elf mages weren't entirely clear on what they were doing when they started to invent this. They just tried different things until it began to sort of work. You are entirely right. This is the one part of iatrocryomancy with which I am not happy, and there's just no way to make it perfect. But LotC is a fantasy world. No other magic makes real biological sense anyway. (What part of the brain is used for summoning stuff from the void? If someone's head gets blown up, how do the monks restore it intact with almost all of its knowledge and memories? How do clerics even work--magic light just heals stuff?) 6. Yup. Magic lore is necessary in order to practice magic. But few magic types are really necessary at all. Frost witches? Not necessary, but interesting. Contract magic? So obscure that it doesn't really impact that many people, not necessary. But interesting. Soul puppetry? Not necessary. Interesting nonetheless. This is analogous. 7. So does medicinal magic. But that was accepted. 1. That's where the medicinal magic comes in. Also, the ice does not necessarily destroy the cells, since it doesn't need to be placed everywhere. Just in enough places to spread the cold far enough. For instance, using only a little very cold ice can allow for the same absorption of heat. 2. The vital organs are supposed to shut down or at least slow dramatically. And no, it won't. The purpose of cryonics isn't to keep the body functioning properly. It's to stop the problems that arise from when the body isn't functioning. Very little can happen to anything in the body if the cold is distributed correctly. And yes, the organs shutting down is a serious problem. But not immediately life-threatening. For instance, if the heart stops, blood stops flowing. But since everything else in the body is moving so slowly, it won't need blood for a while anyway. And that's where the advanced medicine comes in. To revive a patient, you need to make the organs all start functioning more or less simultaneously. That's not going to be easy, and that's one of the things this magic is used for. 3. So, once again, had you actually read through the thread, you would have noticed that a. This is not just ice magic, it also adds other stuff, and b. it's...still not just for snow elves. 4. Yup. That's the point. A perfect form of healing is actually kind of boring. That's why healing rp is not always fun when someone just "pours healing light from their hands that fixes literally everything." Healing that causes problems, on the other hand, has real rp potential. Thank you for responding, everyone, and I hope that I addressed the issues to which you referred with sufficient clarity.

1. Somewhat ironically, your response serves only to prove my point. I asked for people to read through the thread before commenting on it. Had you done so, you'd notice that my response was to a person who had actually said nothing but instead bumped a quote to which I had already responded with no added information whatsoever. If people have legitimate reasons to criticize my idea, I am happy to debate and compromise with them. If the Lore Team decides that this idea won't work, I understand. But I won't have people just bothering me for no reason while I'm trying to write. So read the thread. I know now how Jade feels when she has to tell people over and over that snow elves are a culture, not a race. 2. Possibly...but it's actually not all that powerful...it doesn't work in every situation. If someone's head is blown off, then no iatrocryomancer can do anything for him. Secondly, slowing down death is something that you can do mundanely, but this just tackles the problem directly. It's a somewhat objective distinction, so it's kinda up to the Lore Team. 1. Sorry, but if you have any questions about the way I responded to that response, then quote me and make specific numbered points like I'm doing, or find some other way to organize it. 2. Yes, I do. 3. I already talked about this twice. If you think that that is grounds enough to stop this from passing, then tell clerics and surgeons that they are not allowed to practice, especially on unconscious patients. This has the potential to be just as interactive as any other kind of medical roleplay, at least the locally applied version, which should be the most commonly used one anyway, and maybe even the general version if you're creative. I'm still looking for that great medical roleplay thread that I saw; I'll try to post it as soon as I can. ((Edit: I finally found it here! Of course it was by Jade. I should have known. Thank you for all your amazing guides, Jade. They've been a lot of help!)) 4. Why not? Every little bit helps. 5. It's a lot easier to develop a culture when you have lore-based stuff off of which to build. Unlike other cultures, we really don't have anything official and I simply wish to see a basic cultural backstory. Moreover, since we are a divided people, we have no way to form a coherent culture. Thus, taking with us fragments of a past culture allows for us to roleplay cultural diffusion, cultural clashes, cultural evolution, etc. 6. I unfortunately know little about religious magic, having spent most of my time looking at the void stuff. However, if the Lore Team sees fit to replace the void idea with Wyvurn, then so be it. 7. You misunderstand. The type of post you are making is just that for which I am looking. I want posts with valuable feedback, criticisms, and questions. That allows me to develop my idea further. What I wanted to stop was the type of post made in the quote that I showed you. Quoting a post to which I have already responded does no good to anyone unless you explain what it is you want to discuss. That type of post just comes across (at least to me) as hostile and obnoxious. But thank you for fixing that. I'm trying to keep an open mind here. Forgive me for snapping, but I'm only I'm only working on a project that is trying to make something fun and harmless and I've gotten enough responses saying "Shut up, everyone hates snelves" or the like.

Do you have anything useful to contribute? Otherwise, please just don't say anything at all because I've already addressed that comment, and I'd like to keep this thread streamlined so that people who want to read it actually do instead of tldring it. If you want to provide useful feedback or ask questions that haven't already been answered, then go right ahead. I'm sorry to be so short with you, but since the snow elves are a culture, not a race, then damnit I'm going to give them a culture and I won't have it filibustered.

1. Cryonics doesn't work. That's the point. Also...if you had actually read my original post, you'd know that that is where the medicinal magic comes in. The medicinal magic is there to resolve or at least slow down some of the problems with ice-based cryonics. 2. It's not just for snow elves. Nobody on the server knows it and anyone can learn it. It's just that the lore that I wrote has the snow elves inventing it. It's equally easy for any person to learn regardless of race. Just make an rp pilgrimage to the Far North and bring back a book or something from which to learn. Also, note that when I wrote this, I thought Adran was the only active snow elf on the server. Moreover, this is not even healing magic. A mage who knows only iatrocryomancy can heal nothing. He can only postpone death or decay until some form of healing is done by a third party, be it a cleric, a potion, a monk, etc. 3. No. When I wrote this, I had no affiliation with any other snow elves, nor did I know any others even still existed on the server. I have just today met the other snow elves, but neither I nor Adran have any agreement of any sort with them other than that snow elf lore needs to be a thing. Also...if you had checked, you'd know I've only been on this server for a month. All I'm asking, guys, is that you look at this with an open mind. Don't go looking for ways to make this sink; think about whether it's a good idea and give constructive feedback based on that. Thank you to everyone for reading and supporting this thread.

Thank you both for your input. I appreciate that the community is actually responding to my ideas. 1. Not...actually true, as I stated already. The character can explain how the magic affects the body, from healing to side effects to crazy magico-allergic reactions (pretty sure those don't exist). This works quite similarly to when a healer is working on an unconscious patient. There is actually a great thread on this somewhere, but I don't know exactly where it is. If anyone can link it below, that would be great. 2. Yes, Medicinal Magic is what I was talking about. Yes, I know that that is also not really a magic type in and of itself, but it creates a variety of utilities that, if used creatively, could make iatrocryomancy possible. For example, knowing how to use Arcane Shielding can medicinally can be used to prevent blood vessels from bursting. Just an example, there are lots of options. Creativity is key here. Big thanks to Jade for creating that thread, which is crucial to this thread. 3. See 1. 4. I will repeat: we don't need this. That's true. Like most lore, this is not necessary. But it's also not harmful, and it has the potential to be beneficial. So why not?

1. The clerics require a certain mindset and moral stance...at least I think (don't quote me on that). 2. I honestly don't know...but since it is, as I said, not obvious that you can, I thought I'd go for it. 3. It doesn't. But...it doesn't contradict lore, it doesn't hurt anyone, it's not overpowered, and it could be interesting. 4. Er...I don't think the players on the server don't represent the entire population of Athera...otherwise it would be a very strange world. So, if the Lore Team doesn't object, then it just adds flavor...it doesn't really hurt. 5. I think you overestimate the amount of ice necessary to make this work. And it's not supposed to be easy anyway. As I said, mastery of cryomancy is a prerequisite. Good idea. Thank you; I'll try to work on that, although it won't work out quite the same as the conventional tiering system. Hm...thank you for the input. I've made some changes to try to explain possible uses of it. Also, I didn't get that reference...although cryonics is a technology that pops up in many science fiction stories. Also, I didn't know that about the monks...and i don't think that most other people do, either. I've never seen anyone else roleplay it like that. Also...on a...side note...I've noticed that...I use ellipses...a lot. Maybe...I should stop doing...that.