Moglets

" Creation or Evolution " is a false dichotomy, in other words, the theory of evolution is well explored and has produced compelling evidence that is difficult to rationally ignore while the proposal of Creationism is completely without evidence and is to many people about as mad as saying the moon is made from cheese. The false dichotomy is a Creationist tactic of trying to give equal weighting of importance to both Evolution and Creation by pitching them against each other, and ignoring the fact that Creation has no evidence supporting it, while evolution has lots. You might have well have proposed the debate "The Earth - a planet or a giant egg?" as one we have strong evidence for and the other is an unrealistic, unsubstantiated fantasy. To be honest, the mere idea of this topic title is an insult to science in my opinion, but it follows the religious right's well known tactic "Teach the controversy" as if there really is one.

Alright Edward, we'll agree to disagree on the role of first aid in healing. I only teach it every week, what do I know? I think the addition is unnecessary though, and de-values cooking and farming skills. I've taken enough of this thread already anyway ;P

@Maxthebeast I think we're getting a little bogged down here in the details. I think my answers adequately addressed your questions. If your character can die from hunger 30 times faster than in real life, perhaps it's not that wild an idea that you can replenish your health a lot faster through nutrition also. I'm not asking for some sort of ultra-realism. Just common sense. As you point out, your level of nutrition deprivation and your health are hand in hand. Therefore, eating food SHOULD DIRECTLY AFFECT your health. Just in Minecraft it is sped up to make it playable. It's that simple. Perhaps it could be adjusted, with the effects of eating food on your health slowed down a bit... The reason I don't like the proposal as it is, is that it adds unnecessary WoW-like gameplay. I came here to get away from that. It's not 'let's have all plugins or none', it's just that some make sense and enhance the experience, and some don't.

"1. When you eat food in real life it's not like you get healthy instantly. 2. In what world do medic supplies not help cure illness and wounds. 3. There is no option to keep the shop plugin because, as Vaq said in the post, its bugged." Edward Tarus Answers: 1. No, it takes time. This is a game and these things are sped up to make it playable. After all, hunger strikers take weeks and often months to die from hunger in RL. With this proposal, you can now die from hunger within a day or two in LoTC (even with the 50% depletion decrease), so it makes sense that food recovers your health faster too. 2. Bandages help stop blood flow and prevent infection. They do not 'heal' you. Time and nutrition does. I've no issue with a 'wound' system that needs specific potions or medicine to fix. But nutrition and time are the no. 1 factors in healing. First aid generally prevents a worsening of a wound, but it doesn't 'heal' you. I just don't like unrealism coming into LoTC when it's really not needed. 3. Many would prefer a buggy shop system (I've personally had little issue with it, and I role play someone who has 15 autoshop chests) than NONE AT ALL. Removing serves absolutely no beneficial purpose in my opinion. It just makes the economy disappear. I live in Ireland. I cannot always stay up until 3 am to roleplay selling bread to someone. People should remember than a shop plugin greatly benefits us 'off-peak' players, and a buggy one is better than nothing.

"What about food will heal you slowly, But when used with a bangage it will incresse the spead of health re-gain?." - ttwesten Spot on.

By the way, bandanges stop blood flow from an open wound, and help keep you alive. They do NOT improve your health. Your body will heal in time naturally, provided you eat food and drink water in the meantime. First aid is something I teach to groups in real life. I'd rather LoTC reflect reality on this - First aid and bandanges do not heal you. Nutrition does. So why are we proposing to add an unrealistic addition at the expense of real life. This is not WoW.

Food should replenish your health. It does in real life. If you're trying to recover from poor health, good nutrition is, literally, vital. More vital than visiting a 'health' store and buying from medically unproven snake oil salesmen or whatever RP equivalent. I think it makes for unrealistic RP, and is a pity because food and farming is something we all 'get' and can relate to in real life. Magic potions made by a herbalist just takes the value away from farming and cooking and gives it instead to something else. In this case, a more unrealistic alternative. Also, I really want the shop plugin to stay until we're ready to replace it. I think most people would agree. Can you run a poll on this and at least see what people think? There's lots of new stuff to like about this update, I'm not trying to be negative, but these two proposals are pretty crap to someone who role plays a cook who sells FOOD in his SHOP. Moglets

((Auction has been concluded.))

((thinks, "I've seen this place. Mighty fine looking it is too" Bids 31,500 minas.

Just realized Azonias said all I wanted to say but in a much shorter time ;P Bravo.

Players murdering other players for loot... there's plenty of servers around that cater for that kind of thing, and I think one of the reasons LoTC is popular is because we don't normally engage in it. Sorry, but Minecraft servers are full of 13 year olds struggling with new found testosterone and trying to prove their manhood by being PVP kings, and well.. that's not what the LoTC community is about. I've nothing against PVP in general, but LoTC has always provided me with a more mature, RP friendly experience. In fact, successful villain apps should be limited to a certain (low) percentage of the total active population, and limited in duration to give every successful applicant a fair crack of the whip, same as magic users, but that's a different debate. Whatever becomes of my character's loot when I die doesn't matter personally but half the time it happens when I'm jumped by a spider when farming at home and it's virtually unavoidable not to pick it up again when my character gets back. So maybe we should lose all our stuff instantly, but no minas. If people lose too much on death, I think RP will suffer. Why would a merchant, for example, take any risks, travel and explore when inexplicably carrying 20% of his entire wealth around with him no matter how much that is? But losing every item he carried all but for the shirt off his back makes more sense. After all, he's extremely lucky to be alive at all. When 'you' are rescued by the monks, it's not 'you' at all but your character. You got your character killed. The monks give you the opportunity to role play him further, that's all. The hotbar idea doesn't work for me. Adds unnecessary and un-RP considerations to the game. So, scrap the minas thing, and have characters' items disappear completely on death is what I say. My character (Mog) won't thank me for it, but that's his problem! Moglets

Malinor Citizenship Application Name: Mog Truename: Moglets Race: Human Origin: I am a trader who lived on the mainland north of Alras and I help run a farm in the wilds. I am a peaceful human, having been somewhat wild in my youth, but have worked hard all my life. I enjoy exploring and seek to behold new and wonderful things whenever I can. What do you wish to become a citizen of Malinor: The city leaves me dumbstruck with its beauty. I am looking for a home, and maybe run a shop to sell some spare farm produce, and having travelled far and wide, came to realise upon first sight that this beautiful city must be the place I would prefer to dwell. I hope humbly that the great Elves will honour me by accepting me as a neighbour. Do you agree to adhere to the rules of Malinor: Yes I do Skills: ((Farming: 52; Lumberjacking: 20; Mining: 66; Excavation: 65; Blacksmithing: 47))

Thank you staff.

Just incorporate magic into the skill system. If you learn a spell, you can sap from your other skills to get better at it. Make it so that skill credits cannot be applied to magic (at least above a starter level) to stop instant megamages. The skill limit of 275 will take care of the rest. Not sure if this suggestion has already been posted. Mog

Vaqs ? ;P

Hi Mr. Zombez I think it came from when Availer posted recently on this thread on this issue and said he didn't get why players criticized "the choices the development team makes". Up until this point, we thought we were debating the pros and cons of whether minas should be affected by the map change. However if the development team has already made their choice, as Availer seems to have implied, then it seemed to read that players were now debating something that had already been decided. But I guess that's neither here nor there. It was already stated that if GMs and staff want to write the script such that people lose their minas, then they can do so. If the story was written differently, it may be possible to hold on to all or some of our minas. Not everything dramatic has to be violent / desperate / cataclysmic (something that quite a few Hollywood film directors would to well to take note of - Michael Bay, I'm looking at you.) We, the player base, do not know which story the staff are going to write, and while we felt we still had some input into the debate, we spent our time giving our opinions on the matter. If the debate is still open, then well and good. I think I've taken enough people's time giving my own views in the past, so I'll leave the space to others ;P Regards, Mog

On a completely different point, I've really enjoyed being a shopkeeper, and I'm wondering if GMs have any plans to improve the market and economy side of LoTC? I have a shop in Oren Market, and it's been great fun trying to steal a little business over those overpriced high street shops in Al'Khazar. For two weeks I had a pressure plate setup in my shop that triggered free melon slices to all my visitors. After that, I tried a complicated flashing pumpkin lights arrangement (that actually caused the area around my shop to become a lagfest, hehe, so I removed it) in order to entice customers to come in and have a look. I made 25,000 minas in 3 days from my big gem sale by undercutting every local shop for a limited time. I basically didn't sleep for three nights in order to keep my supplies coming, mining away until I forgot what the sun looked like. It's been great fun, but as a shopper myself, I would love to see a grand marketplace that would encourage many to travel far to visit it, especially with the scores of new potions and so on that Minecraft 1.0 is bringing. A famous grand market on a large scale would be one suggestion I'd make in forming the new world. And I'll still be cheapest dammit ! Cheers Mog

Availer, One person made an offside comment. That doesn't surely deserve such reproachment. Your GM team is not under attack. Every debate has at least two angles and you must understand that the "choices the development team makes" have never before been identified as such. No one knew the decision had already been made regarding minas, so we were debating it. A member of your GM team called people with my view 'lazy' and was first to be insulting in an otherwise well expressed, and well intentioned debate. You know we love you and the GMs. Just be open to reasonable points of view that may run contra to your (previously unconfirmed) plans for the server. Maybe even tweak your changes or compromise in order to have more of the player base onside with you. Honestly, friendship and partiality aside, it is decent for staff to be calling multiple posters 'pompous shits' ? Vax, you're a legend but that was not a decent thing to say. if a player called a GM a 'pompous ****', he wouldn't last long on these forums or in LoTC in general. Let's be civil. People who may disagree with some of the GM views here are not, by extention, opposed to everything else that they do for the server. I have tremendous respect for LoTC and all who participate to make it what it is. Everyone, GMs and members alike, should remain respectful of each other. Remember, one person made one offside comment, that is all. Mog

"Shut up you pompous shits. Insult my GM team one more time and see what happens. " Vax, really? One poster makes an admittedly offside comment " not Petyr who obviously cannot come up with an adequate reply to anything" and you accuse muliple people of being pompous shits ? It's just debate dude, and it seems like anyone who opposes what is clearly becoming the GM / staff consensus view is getting called names. This is nothing to do with your hard work, it is always appreciated. Don't be personal and insulting. I'm one 'pompous ****' who donated 100 dollars to support the server. Don't insult me. I have been civil throughout. Mog

Wow, 18 pages in and not one person has given a convincing reason as to why you would take any character's minas when we change map, just vague notions of 'balancing' which I believe to be a misnomer. Accusations of 'sounding lazy' are all very well but honestly when you are addressing those who worked hard for their minas, while some others have spent a lot of their time spamming OOC with 'witticisms' like 'herp derp', you really should review who you think is 'lazy' and who is not. I notice with disappointment that despite some GMs' input recently to the debate, they offered little by way of explanation of why taking minas off any character on the server would benefit anyone else. Honestly, at this point just answer the questions raised by me and others and I'd really appreciate your input. I understand some info cannot be given at this stage, but if this is a discussion, you've got to give us a bit more to work with in order to justify what for me would be a drastic change to my LoTC experience ! I don't know why this discussion is here at all if it is a fait accompli as I'm starting to fear this is. Lucas / Zolgash, have you read much of Tolkien's work? The lore is full of characters that go out to seek riches in Middle Earth (indeed 'The Hobbit' is based on this whole concept and is a fantastic tale to boot) so if you think Bilbo Baggins is less 'in the spirit' of a Tolkien based world than, let's say, Gandalf, then fair enough, I understand your view. Another poster, Gordok, has already eloquently expressed the core objection some of us having to losing our minas, and it's not really to do with the money. "To place subjective judgement on any of these character values and weigh one above the other is like telling a player that just because he likes to accumulate property, items, minas or whatever his character concept is less important and less valuable to the server that another character concept who may be more altruistic and enjoys traveling around recounting stories and giving sagely advice. This is wrong and will only end up hurting the server." Honestly, do you really think wealthier players are just sitting around in big houses? You don't become wealthy by sitting around, I can assure you. Just make some convincing points of why the server would genuinely benefit from wiping player's minas and this debate can move forward. The arguments I have seen in opposition to my view and similar views appear to be mainly criticism and nitpicking (accusations of laziness, poor RP, being pedantic in trying to 'correct' an excellent analogy provided by another poster, etc.) Now bring your constructive reasons as to why you want minas wiped, and let a fair debate begin. As for me, I dislike arguing (hehe , honestly!) and I think I have expressed all my thoughts to the point of exhaustion, so I'll bow out of this debate, and trust that our views will actually make a difference in the end. Thanks, as ever, for reading. I'm as tired of reading my writing as you all probably are ! Mog

Lastly MrZombez, I just read you post there and well if you look through my first post on this thread (page 16), you will see I have quoted three previous posts with opinions I don't find very vaulable to the debate, so by impication, those opinions that opposed these views are. But I feel what I believe to be a more or less valuable view is unimportant to this discussion and it probably pretty boring for others reading this! In any case, I just wanted to make my points and explain why. I do trust LoTC staff and hold the server in the greatest regard. But there is a strong body of opinion similar to mine and there's no harm in anyone reading our views. If it will influence the decisions then well and good. We're all in this together. goodnight then :) Mog

Well Petyr, your response make me chuckle. "The New World And You" is a pretty open topic for sure depending on how you interpret it. I took the "New World" to mean the actual physical place, not necessarily wealth redistribution and other such changes. But sure, no problem talking about that. And I think that if you're looking to bring those kinds of changes the onus is on you to demonstrate why they are necessary or risk upsetting a lot of people. I am interested in hearing some actual answers to the questions I've raised, as I feel I have been diligent in attempting to respond to others' questions of my opinion. Cheers, Mog

Hi MrZombez, Well my thoughts in response to the points you raised are: 1) Just because some people who are wealthy have an opinion that differs from mine in no way diminishes my argument. This is a logical fallacy. I making a point that this is about a change of map, not about any other agenda (like creating an even playing field, for example). I'm not saying I wouldn't be happy with some changes going into the new world, but they may not be necessary, just desirable in some people's view. The change of map is necessary in the opinion of the vast majority of the players and the staff. Rebalancing wealth is far more devisive, and will upset a lot of people. The onus is on those wanting to rebalance wealth to prove to the majority that their argument is compelling, not the other way around. 2) I never stated that my opinion is more valuable than anyone else's but merely that some opinions on this thread are more valuable to the debate than others. This debate is about changing map and how we will do it. I feel the suggestion that people with a similar view to myself 'sound lazy' is a judgement based on a complete lack of facts. You don't know enough about my free time to play LoTC, how I played more and have been very active when the time allows. Now I'm back in college, I will have less time and don't want to lose all I have worked for. I 'made hay when the sun shines' as it were. It's nothing to so with laziness. Reminding me and other readers of the value of server donations is somewhat besides the point since we are both arguing its importance, and merely disagree on how that is best achieved. Once again, when people bring new proposals to the table, the onus is on them to prove their argument compelling to the majority or at the very least, the decision makers, in order for a change to be adopted. I feel that I have not heard a compelling argument for wealth redistribution at this time. That's all. My previous post explains why in reasonable detail, but it mainly involves the fact that I don't think taking away the things I have worked for is fair. Now demonstrate to me why it is and I might be convinced. But for now, I'm not. When I started LoTC in the summer, I had nothing but I walked the land passing rich merchants and kings....and worked my way up to where I am now. By your logic what I underwent was unfair - I started way behind some others. Did it bother me that I had nothing at the start? No, of course not. If anything it gave me something to strive for. Why should it bother anyone going into the new world? Why would it bother anyone that someone is richer than them? It makes for a far more realistic world in my view, especially as I know that they had to work hard to get it. I'm happy for them. Once again I have taken far too many word to express myself, but this is a life long struggle! Thanks for reading, Mog

Well I've been reading through all this and here are my thoughts for what they're worth. 1) When map resets happen, they do not have to have anything to do with losing your money. That's a populist notion tacked on to the debate to suit the majority of players who aren't wealthy. There are many ways for the RP to make sense of both sides of this debate. I mean, if you can lose 5% or whatever of your money each time you die then how is it not RP for you to be able to bring over a bag of coins or two to the new world? There are many ways to write this story. 2) In RP terms, a starter kit, the quality of which is based on real life donations is pretty awful. No offence at all Mr. Zombez, but I really dislike your proposals for reasons that should be obvious throughout this post. Personally, as a diamond donator, I might start out pretty well, but it's not about that. Some people are saying they'd like us to carry over a certain number of items but no minas. So, it's apparently better RP for me to bring say 2 stacks of wood (128 cubic metres of timber in my pockets) than a few bags of coins with say 10,000 minas value? 3) The map reset is to take advantages of the Minecraft improvements (biomes and features, etc.), and that is why we are doing it. Nothing else. And anything else proposed is just an agenda sensing its time is right. Pure opportunism. 4) I have spent many weeks toiling as a hunter and a merchant to gather a small nest egg and keep me busy and enjoying Aegis. There is simply no justification for taking that away from me. If you want to write the script a certain way, you could justify me fleeing the land with nothing (in RP terms). You could also do it in a peaceful way with me keeping what I've worked hard for. The reasons people in this thread are asking for a clean slate are no doubt varied, but none are compelling. 5) I guess I'm simply trying to say that changing to a new world is great and exciting, but 'tacking on' other agendas and frustratingly trying to argue that it's better RP should be seen for what it is. For people who say 'you did it once, you can do it again' I believe that is neither convincing nor fair. I believe I could start from scratch again, but it would be far less fun for me and be greatly disappointing. And to regard this opinion as contrary to 'good RP' is flawed in so many ways. For example: "th intention is to RP and build a character, not gather the most lootz." or "Your just to lazy to start new." or "To be completely honest, whining about time spent really just makes me care less." You get the picture. I strongly disagree with the completely undemonstrated 'need' to mess with the stuff our characters have worked for. Without writing the lore specifically to suit this agenda, what way can you justify these proposals (like losing your items, minas etc.) ? I've not seen a single compelling argument. Finally, I believe that everyone's opinions aren't equal (their right to express them is). Staff should lead from the front on this one. You're bringing us a new map. So we can have more fun. So there's absolutely no need to cause upset and potentially lose long term supporters and players in the process. It's not better RP, it's just bad business in the real world. Thanks for all who read through this long post. Regards, Mog

Hi there, I want to buy the shop for 8,000 minah in Al'Khazar, near to the front entrance and close to 'Food and Things'. Can someone tell me how to do this? The owner of the shop space has not left his name, just a sign with 8,000 minah. Cheers, Mog