Space

ok

ok well let me give you a hint: antifascists don't support violent oppression of minorities, nationalism, patriarchy.......

define fascism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_as_theft

i don't know maybe that's an element of that but i think a reason a lot of fascist groups in europe (especially since WW2) have disbanded was because of antifasim.

because if you think that the 'marketplace of ideas' is the best solution when it's clearly not-- since we have minorities still oppressed. i guess unless you think that america isn't a 'marketplace of ideas.

i mean yeah i'd agree with that

ok well america had half the country succede to defend slavery of people so idk fam? i think the west has a lot of connections and there's a lot of growing fascist movements in europe isn't there? that wilders dude, le pen, ukip, etc

you aren't anti-violence-- you support capitalism right? and good job antifa are also those other things.

ahh yes the TRUE fascsits are the people fighting against it MHM the beacon of intellectual honestly on lord of the craft

black people do not commit more crime than other races. proportionately they do, but they don't commit more acts of violent crime than other races.

ok yeah you get arrested that's violent so you agree that taxation is violent? ofc it's not the same but you said taxation isn't violence. i never said it was wrong, i said it was violence which you seem to agree with

and maybe violence isn't the best scenario for every fascist but it seems to be the most effective for the most amount. i'd have to look into that italy fascists stuff!!!!

and yes it does have everything to do with is it okay to beat fascists. maybe if there was more popular resistance hitler wouldn't have risen to power? antifascist groups that have responded to growing fascist movements have been pretty effective

i mean in an anarchist society there'd be no prison, no corporations controlling government, you'd be much freer to express yourself no? so if you were a true free speech advocate wouldn' you want anarchism? everything goes?

no of course not but that contributed to it- maybe if the communists weren't so passive they could've prevented the rise of mussolini? as i said antifascist movements have been pretty good at stamping out fascism in the past?

no they don't? black people do not commit more crime than every other race in US

what happens if you don't pay taxes?

the legal systems of countries has helped fascists, not countered them

guess she shouldn't have been protesting at a rally with a bunch of fascists if she didn't want to get beat-- although, sure, innocent people can be targetted, but those are accidents. a lot of the time it's much more easy (i.e. the skin head movements of the 80s) to identify the fascists (not to say all skinheads were nazis-- there were many antifascist skinhead movements. rather, you would just ask people and they'd tell you, or they'd attend meetings, or they'd march, or they'd murder antifascists).

I've not heard much of BAM but what's wrong with them?

No, they didn't. There was small scale violence and street battles between KPD and NSDAP, but the left was too busy during interwar period fighting each other https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacist_uprising

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Period

Most didn't see the NSDAP as too big of a problem until it was too late-- I think there was a quote of one KPD guy who said something to the effect of 'Hitler today, us tomorrow,' thinking this was just another regular fascist leader that the KPD believed existed in the Weimar Republic.

If you'd like to source that Italy statement, sure! I know the Nazis and Italy didn't, and I think Spain was legal thing which turned into a civil war, but I can't remember any true 'fascist revolutions.'

Again, I don't know I've never heard these things about the Brownshirts being used to promise the middle class protection-- NSDAP was pretty small for a pretty long time, it rose rapidly, and didn't even have widespread support when it took power. I think in 1933 less than 2% of Germany belonged to the NSDAP.

Yes, the marketplace of ideas works when black people are slaughtered by the police every year. When violence against LGBT people happens every year.  1% of the population in prison. Mhm.

Fascists in Italy rose and the Italian communist party signed a truce with them-- letting them exist peacefully, which in turn led to..

I mean, I don't know if I agree that the Republican party's inability to do anything is due to the marketplace of ideas, but I guess you could argue that?

Violence in a civilized society isn't wrong. Unless you are an anarchist, violence and control of power is how every government works. Taxation is a form of violence. Prisons are a form of violence. So, I guess the anarchist Antifa are closer to the position you believe in eh?

I mean I dunno I'd disagree I think fighting for the freedom of man against an oppressive force is a pretty heroic thing? But sure people can be anti-fascists and also bad in other ways, like Leninists or Stalinists or whatever.

I think there's way more anarchism is antifa organizations than anything else, but that's not like a number people keep track of. I can cite you groups that supported a lot of anarchist things like squatting and community organizations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomia_Operaia), but you might be able to find a lot of examples of antifascists marching under soviet hammer and sickle. So IDK, for sake of argument, I am talking about anarchist antifa I guess?

The reason I am sympathetic to antifascists isn't that they are 'a bit better' than nazis or something.

That hasn't happened, the idea that antifa will just go against the next closest people.. After yearly marches in Dresden and 2 other cities (I can't find the names, I'll look after) were successfully stopped by antifascist movements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazi_marches_in_Dresden

43 Group disbanded when their enemy was gone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43_Group

A real world example I witnessed, the Peterborough Against Fascism group has been pretty quiet since they successfully stopped a neo-nazi rally https://www.facebook.com/PTBOANTIFASCISM/

Local antifascist organizations have stomped out the most public proponent and he is too scared to organize a rally https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/11/04/kew-gardens-far-right-rally-cancelled-anti-fascist-counterprotest-still-on.html

As for their effectiveness, I don't think that they've been shown to increase far right membership. You know what does? Economic downturn, political instability. Antifascists have been pretty successful in shutting down fascists I think (for evidence we can just look at the same links about the groups that've disbanded when their goal is achieved).

Ok well fascists have rarely seized power through revolution-- Beer Punsch was a failure, March on Rome was a final demonstration not any violent seizing of power. So when exactly do you think we should fight against fascists? Reasoned debate in the Weimar Republic led to Adolf Hitler. The idea of a 'marketplace of ideas' hasn't manifested itself in the real world.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

that's what the coalition government people call 'em and everyone on /r/syriancivilwar calls em so that's where i got it from sorry

yes fascists

what is a borad category? antifa is a like self-identity. it is broad, anti-fascists. obviously there's a spectrum, but there haven't been many of the ultra-extreme veins, from my reading. if you can find a list or something that'd be interesting? and the idea of antifa is pretty illiberal don't you think

ok yeah they murdered fascists think about the history of those countries what do you find :Thinking:

but this hasn't been shown happen-- the idea that antifascist is so broad that it could aply to any non extreme left wing people

when the 42 group suppressed Mosley's movement they disbanded

in Norwey antifascist movements pivoted to helping Sweden with their fascist issue after Norwey's fascist scene was essentially destroyed in the 90s

Autononmen declned in 'membership' as fassicst trends went out of German politics, only increasing with **** like the anti-refugee attacks

like every movement dies whnever they achieve their goal, they don't continue to go after the next closest target

also anti fascists aren't liberal lmfao

yeah that's he point actual fascists get the **** kicked out of them by antifascists, as has happened for the past like 70 years. cable street and such.

and it's not them that define these people as fascists, it's the fascists who spout fascist ideology and fascist action

no i don't because i don't think the people in the west are '99% violent thugs.' They are violent but violent against fascists and fascist elements of society. If you could give me examples of widespread 'thugery' that'd be interesting though.