ChonGojDragonski

screnshot was taken from the PowerPoint linked in this thread, the most recent update. MFW Ascended doesn't even know how his own lore is written. There is nothing in this lore that applies tiers to soul mending or tiers to regeneration. If it's not in the lore, you can't expect people to RP it, hence the need for a rewrite. It's elementary really.

The lore states, as shown here, IC days pass by in about half an hour to an hour of OOC time. This entire thread is made for discussing whether the lore should be rewritten/changed, and clearly it should be. Just because you might RP it "correctly" doesn't mean that others don't in their way because of how poorly the lore is written. A decapitated hand/arm/limb isn't really fatal though, as long as the blood loss is stabilized. And again, the Ascended lore is so grey and uncertain regarding this matter, it doesn't matter how it's supposed to be Roleplayed, the lore still needs to be reworked to explain that. Fair enough regarding Clerics, Ascended can however.

I would like to note, I'm not against Holy Healing being used to heal certain injuries. I'm against the way it is implemented. Here are multiple quotes of me saying as much across the thread. It was a long thread and I spent a lot of time defending limb removal and the idea that Magic shouldn't always bring back a limb, because it shouldn't. There should be risk involved and the process should be long and arduous. I honestly didn't realize that's what you were talking about because your entire analogy was based off of what happened in Haense and didn't mention Magical Healing Roleplay. Clearly you haven't been to the Dominion then, or have seen extended character arcs where people completely barely spend any time on something as major as being blinded or having a limb removed. Those should be major moments of development for the character, and far to often they're glanced over. Your anecdote about one place having mundane healing roleplay while Holy Healing Magic existed on the server really doesn't serve as evidence for anything, and there have been many people on this thread and others that complain about its suppression of other types of Healing RP. You're just assuming that everyone who has posted for the revamp of Healing Magic RP and has cited mundane healing suppression as a reason is being dishonest/wrong about their experiences. Not the case. I'm sure in this one instance, there was great RP, doesn't change the fact that I've seen RP opportunities stifled in other places. Someone that managed to completely misunderstand the point I was making is telling me to learn how to debate. Right. I'll break it down then. You're saying that Healing Magic takes time to conjure and apply, therefore mundane healing will be resorted too as the first option right? Which is why I SAID, Fair enough, I could have articulates myself better, I thought you would have gotten what I meant from the overall things I was arguing for in the thread. Ascended Soul Meld bullshit doesn't really any time to conjure and apply. You sit there, do your emotes, maybe throw in a few beads of sweat and say it hurts, and then you're done. Actual healing roleplay requires the collection of herbs, getting someone who knows how to properly use the techniques, dealing with rehabilitation, having it affect you until you recover. Ascended soul mend to self regen takes away from every single one of those things. It literally is "God's relevation and perfect in every given situation." Do you understand now? Though I will give you the benefit of the doubt given as you did mention that this was a different argument. Yes, I brought it up, and immediately proceeded to say it was a different argument and I shouldn't bring it up. Don't get me wrong, it was retarded to do on my part and I regret it now as it has taken away the focus from the actual arguments on the thread. W/e, we can discuss this later on a different thread. But they do mate, this is taken from the Ascended lore for gods sake. https://i.imgur.com/d2NXUwy.png https://i.imgur.com/iAQAXkQ.png If that isn't Deadpool/Wolverine healing IDK what is. Look at all the posts I and people on the Ascended Magic thread made to explain WHY Soul Mending in conjunction with regeneration is so bad. The tow by themselves could have worked, together they don't. Just because you don't want to read the justifications doesn't mean they aren't there. The thread was about whether or not Holy Healing is bad, it had nothing to do with making suggestions towards how to fix it. In my first post, every single one of my critiques were towards people defending Holy Healing and the way it is. It's not my fault people were unable to understand that. I didn't set the goal posts for everyone else, I responded to the OP's point of making the thread. When did I move the goal posts? Point it out. And OFC I'm going to declare axioms, every argument is based off of them. If you disagree with my argument, you argue the axioms. That's how debate works. Maybe you RP with **** people mate, I've never had to deal with this and I've roleplayed with people that absolutely despise me. Until you cite examples of this happening to yourself or others, I'm not going to take your word for it. How is me wanting an example of people doing what you claim impossible standards? People on this thread have provided numerous examples of **** Holy Healing, it wasn't that impossible. And I'm not being hyperbolic. Two to three emotes of an Ascended soul mending someone's injury and saying it was difficult is akin to it being instant, and does avoid the actual consequences that come with a debilitating injury. Consequences such as rehabilitation, pain to your character, psychological trauma, etc. Yes I think healing is too fast, and in my original post arguing in the thread, I was referencing people that said Holy Healing is fine the way it is. Yes, setting your goalposts is the right word for it because this literally isn't the point of the thread we're on. I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to suggest what I think should be done in regards to healing magic, make the thread and I'll do it. Although TBH, I agree and would have pretty much said the exact same thing as Temp. It's not my fault that you or anyone else here misconstrued my ideas or intent for arguing. I'm sorry, but where in the quotes did I act as if I know where every RP instance will go down? Maybe I'm slow but I don't understand what you're referring too. Look, if you're going to take me accusing your ideas of being bad as something personal on a debate thread, IDK what to tell you. I've debated with people before and been absolutely fine with them OOC and IRP. I've expressly avoided bringing in anyone's character into any of my arguments, can't say the same for some of the other people that have disagreed with me on this thread and how hostile people are getting. As for situations where you getting horifically maimed are unavoidable, what does that mean? Your character can choose what it does and what it doesn't. Yes, if you fight back against ten bandits, you will unavoidably be maimed. So don't do it? Losing a limb for saving your child sounds like some amazing RP and some quality character development, too bad we don't get that very uch do we. Really isn't. Even if Holy Healing was outright removed, regular healing or forms of limb replacement is made so people don't keep injuries, and I haven't argued against them. Lots of stuff to read through so I can understand your misunderstanding. I'd rather have someone not go along with an attempt to injure them so I know that this is a person solely interested on developing their story the way they want to so I can avoid them in the future, versus someone who just takes the injury and gets it fixed in the most low effort way possible. Holy Healing provides a medium for the second thing. Feeling tired after you regrow a limb isn't a drawback mate,and you avoided discussing Ascended who pretty much have no drawbacks. Name one drawback to the way Ascended heal, please do. Yes but the current Lore provides ways to do this, it really does. This is a thread that is advocating for a rewrite and fixing these systems, IDK what else I can say. Fair enough, no offense taken. I can come off as condescending IRL as well as over text, didn't mean anything by it. I appreciate this paragraph. Perhaps you could explain something to me, as it's very plausible I misunderstood. Couldn't an Ascended take an injury, such as losing a limb, onto themselves, therefore heal the person? Just want this clarified, as I know it explicitly states in Cleric redlines that they can't regenerate limbs/extremities. I personally have qualms in the way alchemy is utilized as well, though I think it's less prevalent of an issue. The way I see it, Holy Healing Magic should work really quickly for small injuries such as cuts, bruises, forms of fatigue, and other such things. And it should be a way to heal super diffiult things that couldn't be healed without the use of Magic. Medium things, such as broken bones, or muscle tears, etc, etc, should be tied between Holy Healing and Mundane Healing. This system would give Magic Healers some usefulness in an immediate sense regarding small and minor injuries, as well as vital in the long term sense for certain kinds of injuries. By making them equivalent to mundane healers when it comes to medium level injuries, you preserve mundane healing roleplay and prevent Holy Healing from being the save all be all to any kind of injury. It should be rare and awe inspiring when you see it, the current system doesn't fully provide for that. Just thought I'd state my opinion as to how it should be done to explain why I sort of disagree with you. I see no reason as to why Clerics and other holies can't also learn medicine Roleplay, and provide both kinds for victims and prospective learners aside. What if Clerics also made a guild where they teach the basics of human anatomy, how to properly stitch a cut up, set a broken nose or something in battle, stop blood loss, etc. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, and you can maintain their importance through the healing of injuries that are beyond the capability of simple mundane healing. Can you or anyone for that matter explain the consequences of an Ascended soul mending an injury from someone and then proceeding to regenerate it within a few OOC minutes?

I never said Holy roleplay kills mundane healing mate. It's Holy Healing Roleplay that does that. An Ascended taking on the injury of someone else and regenerating it isn't powergaming though, it literally isn't. That's why we're advocating for changes. Neither are Clerics who channel whatever Angel they're associated with to speed up recovery to a ridiculous degree. We're not discussing this, though I 100% disagree. Irrelevant. The issue isn't necessarily with Ascended passive self-healing, the issue is how it functions with their heal Roleplay. We've covered why it's a problem so many times, please read through some of the responses and you'll see the very real complaints. Although Ascended self healing is still awful, that's another discussion.

Mhm, right. Whataboutery. No one is obligated to believe you if you don't have any evidence for it, especially when it's a claim like this. That's not at all what I said buddy. I never said reports are ineffective, I said telling people to report issues such as someone not properly RPing how they heal themselves wouldn't be effective. It's undeniable that people don't report powergaming nearly as much as they should, doesn't mean that the reports are not effective. Take the ban report that I made for example. Everyone told me not to go through with it, that my actions would change nothing. Clearly that wasn't the case. Your point is invalid. If I'm Roleplaying a conflict with someone, and I cut their sword arm off to settle the issue, and then they go get it healed in an instant by some Ascended or Cleric with no real problems as a result of what happened, and than proceed to RP with me, that definitely takes away my fun. There are a plethora of other cases I can bring up. Magic that is too powerful ruins any stakes that there might be, there is a reason why we temper it and keep it balanced. Implying that's what happens? Current healing is the exact opposite of that mate. I'll repeat it, I'm not against healing magic, I'm against the way that it is implemented. Context is important. It's how the problem is rectified that matters. Because when Clerics and Ascended can literally make your injury go away as if nothing happened with no real cost or RP to themselves, than yeah, it pretty much is the same as not being injured in the first place. Sure, all my points are still valid however. My bad, didn't mean to misuse the word/phrase, I think everyone got my general idea though. Complete bullshit. This server has children that play on it. Powergaming is incorrect roleplay. Also there is established lore and vague theme just in case you try to pull those arguments to make a false equivalency. Fair enough, I can admit that those were poor examples. I'll rephrase, Just because some players prefer a specific kind of roleplay, doesn't mean that the rest of the server has to bend over backward to facilitate it. Every argument in the end is going to come down to how people prefer things. The Lore Team doesn't allow certain creatures to be accepted because they don't think that the Roleplay it'll create will be to their preference. The Administration punishes certain people because they would prefer different actions from them. Everything comes down to a preference. Some people prefer not to ever kill their character under any circumstance and dislike any conflict roleplay outside of their slice of life. Is that a good preference? That's when you start getting into subjective territory which isn't something that can be debated. I and many others however, don't think that this kind of Roleplay is good for the server. Those responses are equivalent to people that blatantly overlook any complaints against their magic and refuse to branch out their Roleplay. This is a discussion thread regarding Holy Magic. If someone is making dishonest arguments one way or the other, it's the literal point of the thread to call someone out to expose this dishonesty. You could be 100% right about everything, we won't know if you don't elaborate and explain why you're right and others are wrong however. Like advocates of holy roleplay and slice of lifer? This statement cuts both ways.

There are dishonest and mean-spirited players that absolutely will avoid any roleplay consequences to **** with players. It's not controversial and people have openly discussed how they're not willing to do any Roleplay that they don't like. When talking about keeping a broken magic the same to allow for ignoring all roleplay consequences, yeah it becomes very relevant. See what I did there? I'll repeat what I said, if someone is doing something without Roleplay reasoning behind it, report it and it'll be dealt with. If they have a valid Roleplay reason, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. Regardless of what you might think the person behind the character might be feeling. Seeing someone use Holy Magic to circumvent the attempts my character did to deal with them does take away my fun though....Seeing someone ignore all consequences in an event that I am also involved in, and having that effect the overall story of the event does take away from my fun though... Why are you implying that this is wrong? Every single discussion ever is based on preference. You don't like ERP? You don't like overly gruesome RP? You don't like powergaming? Those are all prefrences regarding the /way/ that other people Roleplay. This isn't an argument. What does this even mean? Who is approaching this discussion dishonestly? If you're referring to me, I'll ask you like I asked the other people who quoted me on the thread, where? I'm waiting to see it. Unless you can point to something specifically, you can't say that anyone is approaching something dishonestly. Those are specific genre's of RP. Let me clarify. I DON'T MIND MAGIC HEAL RP! I'm not advocating for its removal necessarily. I and Flam, and everyone else who has agreed with us, is advocating for the fix of a shitty system. I've yet to see proper arguments for as to why the system isn't ****, when there have been plenty of arguments as to why it is. If anyone in this thread has done that, quote them and take it up with them. Don't immediately dismiss all critiques of a magic because some people do this. If I or anyone does this out of context, call them out for it. Sure it CAN be taken out of context, I expressly avoided doing so. Sorry what? If you can't name something specific, don't accuse me of it to take away from any of the arguments I made.

Nice post that has nothing to do with any of the points being discussed? If you want to rail against imaginary sleights or assign nefarious intent to people that really couldn't be arsed, that's all fine and good. Don't do it on a thread made for discussing whether or not Holy Healing Magic is bad or good. I'd be more than happy to address every single on of your points on a separate thread related to discussing this topic. Edit: What's with wanting actual consequences to be roleplayed, and not wanting **** magic on the server, automatically being called "Grimdark". Flam, the head of the LT and the creator of this thread agrees with myself and the people you're associating with this "Grimdark" stereotype. I assume he and everyone else that agrees with us is some crazy fanatic that wants to ruin other peoples roleplay? Ight fam.

Glad to see a response. I'd be willing to secede the point that certain kinds of Healing Roleplay could be utilized to heal things that couldn't otherwise, upon thinking about it I can see the different kinds of roleplay that can open up. The current system however needs to be reworked to better facilitate that however, as it's currently broken. Healing Roleplay that "speeds up" a problem that isn't minor, I.E cuts or bruises, is almost always inherently bad. It stifles roleplay and is often a cheap way to get away with IC consequences. By ritualizing the magic and making everything require heavy roleplay, we're only doing something good. This is a roleplay server, what's wrong with having to roleplay out several things before your character gets a hand reattached or his face undisfigured after being horribly burned. Because if the lore was changed so that the Ascended in question couldn't automatically regenerate the wound, and instead had to RP out its consequences, we wouldn't have this problem. But like I said before, power gaming is something that involves interact with two people and can be clearly defined and reported. And yet, we still have lots of powergaming and people can't be arsed to report it. How is something like "X meetings need to be met or you're not healed properly" supposed to be regulated? And what makes you think that anyone will report instances of it that don't effect them, when they don't bother reporting instances of powergaming done to them. It's a problem because a Magic system that can't deal with issues like this is flawed. It's also not really powergaming considering that unless the lore was specifically constructed to deal with this, it'd be legal. Look, in a perfect RP world, I agree that your suggestion could work. However, we're on a server that's far from that, and all suggestions need to be judged with how likely they are to work versus the best case scenario. Implementing your suggestion would only effect the small amount of people that would bother RPing this out versus the vast majority that won't, which is why we need something more substantial. The question is whether or not someone was justified in dismembering someone. If someone is justified, than we don't need to do anything about it, if someone is unjustified, we need to understand why. I think the amount of people that are "gore happy" is wildly inflated, and the few that perhaps are gore happy are usually horrid RPers that I and most everyone else who agrees with me would say they need to be punished. Except there are no consequences for Ascended because they can just regenerate wounds that would take months to heal in hours. That's a direct quote from Ascended Lore, can pull up a screenshot if you don't believe me. I think the idea of taking wounds onto yourself is a good one, and it's immediately invalidated with the regeneration. I'm refuting his implication that arguments against healing magic are invalid because we can make the same arguments about X, Y, and Z. His analogy was wrong, by refuting it, I refuted his point. I was being quick/general, the point wasn't specifically made to talk about the applications about Evocation but to point out the fallacies in his argument. Clerics can and have been regenerating hands, fingers, eyes, etc, for a while. Ascended can take on the lost limb and then regenerate it themselves. Aside from the fact that if you're putting your character in that kind of a situation you should have to deal with the IC consequences, again, this whole idea that the server is filled with gore hungry fetishists who want to mutilate everyone they see is false and could be reported for poor villany RP so they could get blacklisted. I agree, why create a medium like Healing Magic to justify such horrible behavior though? I'm sorry but I don't see how anyone that's actually concerned with improving the RP quality on the server can say that. If you're concerned, this statement is hypocritical, if you're not, than I don't think I'd be speaking out of turn that LotC isn't the server for you. This same exact argument can be extended to people not wanting to ever, EVER, lose in RP because they don't want to give up their enjoyment for someone else. Clearly that's ridiculous, and so is Astartes argument. If someone is doing things OOC with no RP basis, report them. That's one of the easiest reports to make and I have confidence that the GM team will punish the person at hand. If another IC character has an IC problem with your character, it's called deal with it? This is RP, characters have conflict. Are you really advocating that IC characters shouldn't have vendettas against other IC characters for 100% legitimate reasons? If you kill my characters parents, naturally they're going have it out for you, what did you expect? It's your job to deal with it IC, that's how RP happens. I haven't seen this specific point in Cleric lore, but even if you're right, Ascended or Druids have no such problems, and that needs to be addressed. I literally can't think of anything that would **** someone's roleplay? Lose a limb? Creates more RP. Lose two limbs? Creates more RP. Become a quadriplegic? Creates RP. Lose your eyes? Creates RP. Give me an example of someone losing the ability to RP short of torture porn which can easily be reported? Could you elaborate on these consequences? Your character being blind, mute, or deaf, is something that can be handled IC. Not having hands is something that can genuinely be solved IC. Having all of those things done to you is something that would qualify as super graphic or obscene RP and could be reported, and I don't think anyone is really that twisted to do these things. If they are, report them. Wait, what? I love how presenting reasonable arguments against Magic immediately turns me into some sort of pariah that gets off on torturing minemen pixels. I don't know who you think I am dude, but ask anyone that has EVER roleplayed with me, even people that don't like me. I'm the last person to do these kinds of things. This is just slander you're using to have to avoid addressing any of my very real points. ... You're really going to imply that every disagreement should end with compromise? What if one side is completely wrong? Actually address my point correctly and believe me I'll give; you just haven't bothered to yet... This has been leveled against me by you and Gladuos. I've yet to see a quote where I've "twisted" anyone's words against them. Maybe we have different definitions of the word twist, IDK man. Point it out so we can see. It has nothing to do with "my way." This is a discussion thread, I'm voicing my opinion backed up with evidence. Did you not want me to do the point of the thread? I don't see how anyone could be so frustrated at someone disagreeing with them. I've actually been here since 2013 as well friend, I just came back two months ago. And I don't see how your experience automatically makes your argument more valid than mine? And I'd like to note, I haven't insulted a single person here...I've called ideas bad, but that is not the same as insulting someone? I disagree vehemently with some of my best friends IRL, and we've each called our ideas ****. Doesn't mean we've ever taken it personally. IDK man, this seems like more excuses to avoid actually addressing any of the points laid out. Bro, it's a discussion. How am I going to meet you in the middle if you haven't bothered trying to answer any of my critiques.... Who here is advocating torture? Did you see the example emote I gave? If you read through my argument with an open mind instead of trying to look for something that automatically coincides with your beliefs, you might have. It's a discussion thread, we're here to critique what other people think. IDK what else I can say. Ight, just pointing out you were wrong. Honest mistake than. Not everyone wants to lose a fight. See how that doesn't work? Yeah. Some people enjoy ERP, not losing fights, playing special snow flake creatures with magical powers, etc. If we don't accept those things on the basis that they enjoy them, your argument regarding accepting things based off of enjoyment doesn't work either. Generalization and avoiding the point. I've said it before, if someone is blending OOC with IC, report them. It's one of the easiest things to prove and will definitely be punished. If you kill the best friend of a persona and they get angry and try to kill/disfigure your character, I don't see how the amount of time the persona has been around has to do with anything? You're literally arguing that X character is better/more important/RP is more valid Y character because they've been around for longer. Dude, this is against the rules. Report it. You're straw manning me so hard. NO ONE IS ADVOCATING FOR TORTURE RP. IDK how I can make it any clearer. Losing a fight isn't everyone's cup of tea...It's collaborative, that means if someone does something IC, and goes through the RP to do with it, you respect it. How would you feel if someone invalidated your RP because they couldn't be arsed to go along with it. That's what you're suggesting. Think about the logistics of what you're saying. GM/Admin team hasn't done a 100 things because it wouldn't work. You're literally saying that X should be done regardless of whether or not it'll work because it's the right thing to do based off of mineman lore.

Bruh... You don't need to PK on RP death to accept consequences to IC actions. My argument is that Healing Magic is a cheap way to circumvent that, at least the way it has been implemented. Your other points are invalid as they're based off this false axiom, but I'll answer a few anyway. You've never roleplayed with me before mate. In my two months on the server, I've never maimed or even really gone out of my way to kill anyone? And this whole connotation people like to put on dismemberment, labeling it a fetish and torture. We're RPing in a medieval time period. Cutting someones hand off for stealing is the literal norm both IRL and LotC, it's not a fetish. Chopping someones limb off while in a war/combat, and leaving them to rot isn't a fetish, it's just the logical thing to do... Something like this can be easily reported as dodging Roleplay, especially if someone attempts to staunch the bleeding because they're dismembering them as a punishment to a crime versus for the giggles. The situation we have atm cannot be monitored. I'm sorry, do you realize what you just said? My argument falls on the logistics. Explain how something like this is supposed to be regulated in a way that would actually work? I'm waiting to hear it. Normal players can't be arsed to report powergaming and metagaming that DIRECTLY affects them. They're supposed to go out of their way to report something that doesn't? Alright, sure. K.

You missed the point completely. You claimed that opinions are subjective, therefore no meaningful discussion can be had regarding them. I just demonstrated two examples of opinions people have where there is meaningful discussion every day. It's not a straw man, you just didn't understand the analogy. You said Holy Magic is fine for X, Y, and Z. I explained why X, Y, and Z is wrong. If you disagree, answer my explanations. If not, this is pointless and we're further cluttering a thread that was meant for discussion.

I actually took the time to respond to each and every one of your points, giving you and them the respect that they deserved. You blew mines off. I'm acting smug? Alright mate, let me apologize if that's the impression you got. But regardless of whether or not my tone conveyed smugness, your actions convey it, and that's far worse. And subjective opinions can be based on merit and fact. Someone can have a racist or sexist opinion, doesn't mean it's a valid one?

EXCEPT THE SYSTEM ALLOWS FOR THIS! Someone logging out for 30 minutes and acting as if they were never injured is 100% within the rules. Clearly you didn't read all of it. I can quote where I said this explicitly if you want. The Ascended system is utterly broken, and healing roleplay is exactly the same. Seem mad there bud. I'd like you to quote a single point that you made which I didn't address. If the way I addressed them was wrong, you're supposed to quote it and explain WHY it was wrong. I don't think you understand how a discussion works friend. Appreciate you associating myself and the things I advocate for as evil by the way. Very logical, quality discussion right there. If what I'm saying is delusional, point it out. Please, I'll be the first to say I'm wrong if you can.Quote selection I'm so stupid. By saying this one thing I gave you free license to completely ignore every valid point I made. All of my points are still valid even if you don't believe in PK on RP death as RP should still have consequences. Very convenient. Complex stories involve risk, death, give and take? Name a single complex and widely heralded story where there isn't risk involved...You literally can't. And again, I'm more than willing to change my mind. Assuming I'm not is lazy and not fair to me as a person.

Mate...Did you really just ignore the multitude of points that were leveled towards the Ascended Magic as a system overall? I can link you to my post if you perhaps missed it.

Until this rewrite is publicized, it's not fair to make statements regarding Ascended based off it. I'm discussing the here and now. If this rewrite fixes everything about the Ascended, than I'll be the first person arguing for it. Doubt it'll happen though. People arguing for Frost Witches made the same arguments you guys did, I.E, rewrite will fix everything bro, just wait. We all know how that went... That's the thing though, this is completely optional. As I said before, someone can log off for half an hour and come back as if nothing happened, they'd be in the right. Perhaps this is addressed in the rewrite, it's still awful atm though. That's the thing, if someone has to deal with a limb being cut off, or being crippled for around an IC year, that's something that will be roleplayed for an extended period of time, even as OOC time passes. I qualify 5-30 minutes of OOC afk/logging off as instant regeneration, the thing is, they'd be roleplaying 100% within the rules. Again, perhaps this is addressed in the rewrite. Until the rewrite is made public, it's a bad system. Appreciate your response by the way. Don't appreciate this one. You should have not posted at all if you're not going to debate on a debate thread. I don't know how I'm supposed to respond to someone basically saying they can't be arsed to have open discourse with me because it doesn't suit them. And clearly you didn't read my point and how the system is FUNDEMENTALLY flawed. Actually read through it and answer my points. Nice way to save face and not answer any of my extremely valid points. If pointing out the flaws in your logic/argument is turning it against you, than IDK what to say. And clearly many people agree with me. It's a discussion thread, if you're not going to discuss, IDK what this comment adds.

Any reasons for why this would be any better? Natural means can't heal a sword through the neck, why should magic be able to heal it? This wouldn't do anything to address the issue however. People can log off for ten minutes and than log back on saying an IC day has passed. Except that there is no way such a system could be regulated. And what's going to stop the injured person from just lying to be healed? Or the healer to feign ignorance and heal the injured person? This really doesn't address any of the core problems regarding healing roleplay. You literally made my argument for me. "It's not like there's any reason not to." You're right, there is no reason not to. Your suggestion wouldn't have any impact on the current problem as not only is there no way to stop people from just roleplaying as if nothing happened after, but there is no way to regulate only people of certain faiths get healed. Why is this bullshit? I'd like for you to name one reason mate. Roleplay should have consequences. If you steal something and they cut your hand/arm off, there is no reason why you should get a get of jail free card. In fact, this would allow for so much more dynamic roleplay to occur, and would likely deal with the issue of being trigger happy with dismembering people. No reason NOT to dismember anyone if you know they can get it healed. If we remove that option, people will think twice because any retaliation against them might be even more severe. If you don't see the problem with people having no consequences for their IC actions and being able to act like a reckless moron because they know that a cleric/ascended heal is a doorstep away, I have no words for you. Ascended healing is even worse due to the way their natural regeneration works. Somehow manages to make a lack of consequences even worse. Except Izkuthii are bad, and Illusion magic needs a rework... Bad examples mate. Except this is demonstrably false? Evocations can be used to start a fire perhaps, but we have matches that function the exact same as that. Otherwise the flames just bugger off into the void. Also, that's not the purpose of Evocations at all, and you know it. It's primarily a combat magic, and I'd like for you to explain how you'd be able to do that without Evo. You blunder through a dungeon with reckless abandon and lose a foot. That's an ultra harsh consequence? You try to fight back against ten bandits and they remove one of your eyes to make sure you don't resist in the future. That's ultra harsh? What exactly do you want them to do? And if we want to get rid of unnecessary ultra harsh consequences, making healing magic powerful isn't the way to do it. I mean, clearly it hasn't done anything for years. Why don't we try actually implementing consequences and seeing how the community would rise up to the occasion? Crazy idea I know. Probably because IC death has no meaningful consequences at all. Hmm, strange how dismemberment and other roleplay is overdone just like death. Oh wait, both the systems that are related to them prevent any consequences or growth for these actions. Way to generalize something for the entire server. Utterly baseless. I know tens of people that love good healing roleplay, and the amount of times I've almost been heal-[removed] and robbed of my healing roleplay because some Cleric comes up to my character while he's unconscious is ridiculous. Also takes away from medic/apothecary roleplay, but who cares about them right? They're already injured, I'm not sure what this would do... Actively goes out of his way NOT to understand, and than complains about not understanding. Can't argue with that logic. Some people enjoy erotic roleplay, just let them do what they enjoy. Some people enjoy super edgy katana swinging roleplay. Just let them do what they enjoy. Some people enjoy roleplaying guns. Just let them do what they enjoy. Some people enjoy roleplaying as a super unique zany creature with no background or nuance to it at all. Just let them do what they enjoy. You don't see how ridiculous this is? This mentality is why the server roleplay quality is suffering so much, and some of the best roleplayers on the server are starting to become less and less interested. Not all roleplay is created equal, that's a fact. But you haven't given any reason as to why it should be able to do these things...? Does healing roleplay take away from consequences to your IC actions? Yes. Does it take away from injury and medic/apothecary roleplay? Yes. Than I really see no reason as to why we should have it in the current way it is... Except there is no way that something like this can be regulated? Just a tip friend, why not stay away from situations where your character is likely going to get mutilated/killed? Or at the very least attempt to approach them with some tact? TBH, everyone should PK on RP death but this is a different argument and people are way to attached to their mineman pixels to actually create quality dynamic roleplay, but at the very least roleplay out injuries properly. I'm sorry what? "Unfortunately, not everyone wishes to RP dying, so why make them?" This is a collaborative roleplay server. If you do something worthy of getting your hand cut off, not going along with the roleplay would be such a narcissistic and selfish thing to do. And someone emoting *swings his sword downwards towards his wrist, attempting to make a clean cut all the way through. Isn't gruesome at all? Except I've never seen this roleplayed properly ever? Without the necessity of rolls, this is something completely arbitrary and isn't an actual consequence. I won't even mention the fact that any cleric can just resurrect and act as if nothing happened if they DO die. More IC consequence dodging. IDK why people are so averse to having to deal with problems that come up IC. I promise it's fun, just try it. Pretty please? This argument can be extended to ANY kind of roleplay whatsoever. Do you not see the doors you're opening? Honest to god, read what you just said and analyze its implications. This can be extended to ERP, Powergaming, and ridiculous uses of Magic, Creatures, and anything else that someone might want to do. Also, just a note. Seeing IC consequences dodged and terrible slice of life on supposedly rare/dark creatures DOES hurt my enjoyment. It hurts the enjoyment of almost every GOOD roleplayer, hence the reason that some of the best roleplayers on the server have left. Some people would rather not roleplay with those that completely ignore all consequences to their roleplay, including death. But screw those people right? Except Dungeons and Dragons is a heavily monitored system that uses rolls. You've said it yourself, you prefer to avoid the use of rolls if possible. Bad example. And healing magic is often deus ex machina in like every medium of fantasy mate. .......................... You're right. Why bother. Why bother having any consequences to anything that might happen to you on the server? I can literally think of like ten different reasons IC why someone. Reading that hurt my soul friend, it really did. Nice, omit the pretty much instant regeneration they have. 1-2 hours IC is like five minutes of OOC time. Except it's like 5 minutes of actual OOC time... Except the issue isn't expressly with combat, it's the fact that there is no consequence to any actions at all...Five minutes of logging off/afk isn't a consequence. What...I'm sorry what? Like, really? I guess you completely forgot about this thread than.... I'm speechless. A thread chock full of complaints, and no one has ever complained. I mean, there are people complaining about Ascended Magic in this thread rn. K. Except that's something you chose to do? If an Ascended wanted to log off for half an hour, upon coming back they'd be perfectly within reason to have just claimed that the wound healed. Or even if it's for the day. TL;DR, healing roleplay at the moment is absolutely horrid and needs a serious revamp. I'm not opposed to it in its entirety, but it needs to be strictly monitored, have no combat applications, and just in general toned down from all angles.

Most character sheets are ****. This one isn't. +1

((Sad state of affairs that ransoms are essentially useless because there is no consequence to death and people can just go back to RPing with their friends on the very same character after acting ridiculous IRP.)) Hadrian reads about the recent state of affairs with an expression bordering on disgust and a complete lack of surprise at the conduct from both Nations.

Yeah this right here shows you don't know what you're talking about. I'm done.

It matters because Creatures are supposed to provide and create new/interesting Roleplay as a whole. Do you know what the concept of creature bloat is? Things such as Satyrs and other creatures cease to be interesting or good once half the server is filled with them, and they are roleplayed like an average character. Have you ever Roleplayed with a skeletal knight that throws around insults like they're in an action movie flick? It's utterly ridiculous. If we allow some players to slice of life and do bullshit with their satyrs, than where are we going to draw the arbitrary line and stop others from doing it? This is an issue that has been discussed and agreed upon by much of the server, hence Satyrs being shelved in the first place. You're new and don't understand the intricacies and complexities of the server. Argument breaks down like this. A) Too many creatures on the server are a bad thing. B) We should shelf inactive creatures and only accept creatures that have a real reason for existing. A is true and has been proven. B is true because A is true. The question is whether Satyrs fit that qualification, and the honest answer is no.

I've had this discussion regarding creatures so many times before and I really can't stand rehashing the same points over again. If we allow Satyrs, they'll be back in the same spot they were when they were put shelved in like a month or so. We have so many creatures and races that can accomplish the same thing as these Satyrs, and the lore isn't very well written. There is no reason for it to be accepted other then the fact that you and a few other people want to roleplay with them, despite the fact that accepting them will be a negative thing for the overall quality of roleplay on the server. I've said my piece.

I was writing a response and it got deleted. Can't be arsed to rewrite it. Satyrs add nothing and should remain shelved, if LT can't spot the inconsistencies in their argument, oh well.

Clearly he wasn't literally calling them toddlers, and you misconstruing his statement like that is either disingenuous or dense. This doesn't address any of the points that he made though?

I don't need to intimately Roleplay with ever single Satyr on the server to make a critique of the lore. If we allowed your argument, we wouldn't have the basis for denying any lore without first implementing them and seeing how they functioned. Just because this creature might benefit your community doesn't mean it would be overall healthy for the server. Sorry, didn't answer any of the concerns expressed in my original post anyway.

Yes, I've seen two running around the Dominion. Literally nothing of any note occurred. In one instance I saw them discussing something with a friend, in the other they were reacting to an injured person being brought to the clinic. What's your point?