[✗] [Amendment] End the Tyranny of the Juliet Potion

[blackhand7 368]

Changes are underlined.

TLDR of Changes: The regular Juliet potion will no longer PK Homunculi, instead putting them on a [2] OOC week respawn timer. A Homunculi’s creator can make a modified Juliet's potion capable of perma-killing their progeny. The recipe is freeform, and, like any alchemy recipe, may be taught. 

Current:

Spoiler

Under Anatomy:

 

Homunculi are immune to the effects of aging and they inherently possess regenerative properties that enable them to remanifest from death after a period of [1] OOC week, albeit leaving them sluggish for [1] OOC Days upon resurrection. Further, lost appendages too would regenerate after a period of [3] OOC days. In the event they are fed a Juliet’s Potion, they will be permanently killed as their body turns to stone. This does not require OOC consent.

 

Under Juliet Potion Redlines:

 

 

— Juliet Potions and Klone Vats require ST Signature.

 

 

 

Proposed Changes:

Spoiler

Under Anatomy:

 

Homunculi are immune to the effects of aging and they inherently possess regenerative properties that enable them to remanifest from death after a period of [1] OOC week, albeit leaving them sluggish for [1] OOC Days upon resurrection. Further, lost appendages too would regenerate after a period of [3] OOC days. In the event that they are fed a Juliet Potion, their corporeal form will be utterly destroyed (to the cellular level), and the Homunculus will be forced to regenerate from the microscopic flecks of skin, hair, and blood that all beings shed. This is an arduous, lengthy process, taking [2] OOC weeks and leaving the Homunculus sluggish for [1] OOC day after resurrection. 

 

Additionally, upon a Homunculi’s creation, their maker will devise a special variation of the Juliet potion capable of permanently destroying their creation. Each recipe is unique and freeform, the alchemical equivalent of a cryptographic key, and may be taught to other Tawkinists. Should the Homunculi in question drink it, they will be permanently killed as their body turns to stone. Administering either variation of the Juliet Potion to a Homunculus does not require OOC consent. 

 

Under Juliet Potion Redlines:

 

— Juliet Potions and Klone Vats require ST Signature. If a Juliet Potion capable of PKing a Homunculus is made, it should be noted in the description which Homunculus it may PK. The recipe for this elixir is freeform, known initially only to a Homunculi’s primary creator. The only way to learn to make it is to have it be taught to someone with a Tawkin [FA].

 

 

Reason for Changes:

 

Spoiler

This is a change I have been personally unsure about for a long time, as I am generally in favor of PKs becoming more widespread and commonplace server-wide. In the case of Tawkin, however, I feel that the Juliet potion has become, as Tawkin’s role in the ecosystem of the server changes, oppressive and stifling to dynamic and interesting roleplay. The server is also moving away from hard-pks generally, especially for minion characters, as exemplified by the recent Necro rewrite removing phylacteries, a far kinder PK than the Juliet potion.

 

When Tawkin was originally written, the Juliet Potion was meant to be more akin to Necro-boxing: a way for scattered cults of tawkinists to self-regulate their community. However, Tawkin’s role in the server has changed: it is no longer a gatekept, esoteric, evil alchemy, as the piece originally intended. Now, almost every community, ideology, and playergroup on the server has access to at least one tawkinist. This is not a bad thing, but it means that the Juliet potion has changed: it has now functionally become a way to force-pk enemy Homunculi, instead of a self-regulatory tool. Imagine how Darkstalkers would be if every nation on the map had three necros ready to do the boxing ritual at any time. Imagine how Druids would be if every evil coven had three druids ready to do the disconnection ritual at any time. A system which allows one side to PK the other after a lost fight while risking relatively nothing themselves is not a good system, regardless of whether or not any instances of this have yet happened. Amendments should be proactive, not reactive. 

 

The result of this system is that Homunculi are encouraged to be incredibly conflict-averse except when backed by huge numbers of allies, with perhaps the harshest pk clause any creature on the server, especially for a being that is meant to be virtually immortal. Generally speaking, a conflict-adverse mindset leads to less-interesting roleplay for everyone on the server, as conflict is the lifeblood of all storytelling. 

 

Relegating the Juliet Potion’s permakilling abilities solely to a Homunculi’s creator means that groups may still self-regulate without being able to PK the opposition. Homunculi death timers are long enough to disincentivize goonery as is, especially when considering the [2] week death timer on the new non-pk Juliet’s potion ([4] if the enemy used voidal magics beforehand). This change also creates interesting dynamics between Homunculi and their makers, as the Homunculus can never truly be “free” until their maker is dead, though it also gives them good reason to be obedient.

 

Edited February 8 by blackhand7
spelling mistake

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

Eh.

 

 

Homunuclus are some of the strongest fighters on the server, fully capable of using any metals and alchemy short of Arcanium and able to take 3 mutations. The Juliet potion is directly tied to Kloning, and one cannot learn of the potion without Kloning afaik. All this does it shift the PKability of a homunuclus to their creator, which is the same as removing the ability to PK them. 

 

There are better things then this, I think, and not really enough homunuclus being PK'd to justify Juliet's potion and the widespread teaching of Tawkin as the problem

[blackhand7 368]

34 minutes ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

Homunuclus are some of the strongest fighters on the server, fully capable of using any metals and alchemy short of Arcanium and able to take 3 mutations. The Juliet potion is directly tied to Kloning, and one cannot learn of the potion without Kloning afaik. All this does it shift the PKability of a homunuclus to their creator, which is the same as removing the ability to PK them. 

 

There are better things then this, I think, and not really enough homunuclus being PK'd to justify Juliet's potion and the widespread teaching of Tawkin as the problem

These are fair and valid points, but I would like to touch on a couple of them. You are correct in the first case- but there are other CAs out there that are far stronger with less restrictive clauses than Homunculi. Golems, for instance. A T5 voidal mage is capable of teleporting 32 blocks and shooting fireballs, and the only restrictions placed upon them at their death is the monk revival timer- same with most other magics. A voidal mage Klone can do all of that in addition to having 2 mutations, and does not run the risk of being pked upon losing a singular, random fight (no other creature really does). Not to mention Liches, Darkstalkers, druids, templars, the various demons, etc...

 

Beyond that, this change does not fundamentally alter the power-level of Homunculi. In the current system, a group could simply create a new Homunculus every time the old one is PKed- a process that can be done in far less time than [2] weeks. The end result of the current system is a loss of character development and a focus instead upon spamming non-unique fighters.

 

I agree with your second point partially as well. Currently, I can only think of one instance of a Homunculus being pked in the past couple months. But I also don't think that just because a gap in the lore hasn't been shown yet does not mean we should leave it there. Amendments ought to be proactive, rather than reactive. 

Edited February 8 by blackhand7

[Tentoa 3160]

Homunculi are the strongest CA by and far. Tawkin has been repeatedly nerfed due to mutations, and with good reason. They are the strongest CRP abilities on the server without a doubt, and homunculi get three slots for them. It is the one actual weakness for homunculi (Aurum does nothing), and there should be a method of killing them. 

The fact that there has only been one homunculi PK in recent memory should indicate that the community's feelings toward force PK are that it's only necessary in dire and specific circumstances. This feels like an amendment made not in the interest of making RP but fear of potential consequences that have not even come to pass. 

TLDR: Hard disagree -1 

Edit: As a response to the 'ah but klones can do things' Klones also sign up for a non-negotiable PK through combat- if you get caught without a klone and murdered, tough luck. The difference between regular player monk revival and homunculi is that regular players do not get access to superpowers that cannot be stopped (Every CA but homunculi and Klones fear the touch of thanihum)

[blackhand7 368]

15 minutes ago, Tentoa said:

Homunculi are the strongest CA by and far. Tawkin has been repeatedly nerfed due to mutations, and with good reason. They are the strongest CRP abilities on the server without a doubt, and homunculi get three slots for them. It is the one actual weakness for homunculi (Aurum does nothing), and there should be a method of killing them. 

The fact that there has only been one homunculi PK in recent memory should indicate that the community's feelings toward force PK are that it's only necessary in dire and specific circumstances. This feels like an amendment made not in the interest of making RP but fear of potential consequences that have not even come to pass. 

TLDR: Hard disagree -1 

Valid points again, but I would refer you to my response to Prima- I do think that other CAs/MAs are stronger without such a permanent death mechanic, and, if the issue is that Homunculi are too strong, then mutations or Homunculi should be nerfed in other ways. From a balancing perspective, the fact that a Homunculus can be PKed after they are restrained and have already lost a fight does not make them less strong during the fight itself. Again, a Tawkinist can simply create another Homunculus if the Homunculus is destroyed- the power level of the Homunculus is not substantially altered. 

 

To the second point, I understand how it might come across like that. But my intention with this amendment is not to run away from consequences;  quite the contrary. I feel that the current lore, in fact, encourages that behavior. If a character knows that certain actions they might take would lead to their permanent death, it causes them to take no actions at all. Far from encouraging consequence-based roleplay that is dramatic and fun, it encourages personas to hide away and do nothing instead. 
 

Edit: As a response to the edit, I do agree that Klones also have a harsh PK clause; but, provided they have some sort of home, and have stored a vat there, they can never die from a one-off encounter. It requires a concerted effort from their enemies, or multiple deaths, to achieve such. The point about Thaniihum is a good one; to be honest, I have never personally interacted with it, so I did not consider its implications. I do think it is rare enough though that the majority of combat encounters do not revolve around it, however, and that other CAs (Ologs) can achieve a rough power level equal to Homuncs non-magically. 

Edited February 8 by blackhand7
minor spelling mistake

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

5 minutes ago, blackhand7 said:

Valid points again, but I would refer you to my response to Prima- I do think that other CAs/MAs are stronger without such a permanent death mechanic, and, if the issue is that Homunculi are too strong, than mutations or Homunculi should be nerfed in other ways. From a balancing perspective, the fact that a Homunculus can be PKed after they are restrained and have already lost a fight does not make them less strong during the fight itself. Again, a Tawkinist can simply create another Homunculus if the Homunculus is destroyed- the power level of the Homunculus is not substantially altered. 

 

To the second point, I understand how it might come across like that. But my intention with this amendment is not to run away from consequences; I feel that the current lore, in fact, encourages that behavior. If a character knows that certain actions they might take would lead to their permanent death, it causes them to take no actions at all. Far from encouraging consequence-based roleplay that is dramatic and fun, it encourages personas to hide away and do nothing instead. 

 

Multiple lores currently exist that can, through a single interaction result in a forced PK or soft PK - Zar'Akal Cannibalization, Inferi Banishment, Tree Lord Unattunement, Pale Lord's Throne Breaking, Wight Phylactorys, and so on

 

Homunculus are not unique in the nature that a prepared tawkinist who is also a klone can PK them. If anything, they are more safeguarded by the fact Juliet's Potion is so closely tied to Kloning that few characters will learn it, and fewer will make it unless specifically dealing with homunuculus. If you get captured alive, that is kinda tough. 

 

If this was an amendment to universally remove insta-PK methods I might have differing thoughts but its not; this is specifically to remove the part of being a homunculus that makes it risky.

 

Klone void mage is an equally weak point. There is no mutation a klone mage can take that will turn them into the roided up rampager a homunculus just is. At best, you can avoid being posioned and you can regrow your arm and heal after a week. 

 

42 minutes ago, blackhand7 said:

A T5 voidal mage is capable of teleporting 32 blocks and shooting fireballs, and the only restrictions placed upon them at their death is the monk revival timer- same with most other magics.

This is a laughable arguement. This set of actions takes, at best, 7-10 emotes. The entire time, mr. chad homunculus can use their auto dodge mutation and their heightned dex to dodge and maunver, and then go stupid with their arm spear that has 2 meters of length. If they dont even bother, the orc strength [all homunuclus are orc strength LOL not a single one is anything but] creature that regenrates damage and respawns decently fast can just swing at you every emote. You are john oren, peak human knight on metabolic steroids. Its the reason your lore has weaknesses

[thejack 198]

7 minutes ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

Homunculus are not unique in the nature that a prepared tawkinist who is also a klone can PK them

anyone with a juliet's potion can use it. it doesn't have to be a tawkinist

Quote

Multiple lores currently exist that can, through a single interaction result in a forced PK or soft PK - Zar'Akal Cannibalization, Inferi Banishment, Tree Lord Unattunement, Pale Lord's Throne Breaking, Wight Phylactorys, and so on

many examples here involve finding a specific thing, and then killing the character. not the same.

Quote

The entire time, mr. chad homunculus can use their auto dodge mutation and their heightned dex to dodge and maunver,

they're limited to a single dodge per CRP encounter

Quote

[all homunuclus are orc strength LOL not a single one is anything but]

also just untrue. theres a decent amount that are just normal

 

slander all you want, but at least get the facts right

[blackhand7 368]

1 hour ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

Multiple lores currently exist that can, through a single interaction result in a forced PK or soft PK - Zar'Akal Cannibalization, Inferi Banishment, Tree Lord Unattunement, Pale Lord's Throne Breaking, Wight Phylactorys, and so on

To my knowledge, all of these interactions require a co-ordinated, hostile attack upon the enemy (requiring getting through their defences) or are methods of in-group policing. There is no encounter that can happen wherein a random wandering Pale Lord or Inferni can come across someone opposed to them who then force-feeds them a potion and instantly ends them. As thejack said, anyone with a Juliet's potion can PK a Homunculus.

 

This amendment would still maintain a PK clause for Homunculi- one that can be easily spread and used effectively as a method of in-group maitenance, which is what I imagine the lore originally intended the potion to be. 

 

1 hour ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

If this was an amendment to universally remove insta-PK methods I might have differing thoughts but its not; this is specifically to remove the part of being a homunculus that makes it risky. 

To be frank, I would not entirely opposed to this, but as I am not a part of any of those communities it feels like overreach to do so. I do think server-lore as a whole does seem to be moving away from those sorts of systems though. 

 

1 hour ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

This is a laughable arguement. This set of actions takes, at best, 7-10 emotes. The entire time, mr. chad homunculus can use their auto dodge mutation and their heightned dex to dodge and maunver, and then go stupid with their arm spear that has 2 meters of length. If they dont even bother, the orc strength [all homunuclus are orc strength LOL not a single one is anything but] creature that regenrates damage and respawns decently fast can just swing at you every emote. You are john oren, peak human knight on metabolic steroids. Its the reason your lore has weaknesses

 

Mages have tools that can let them last for 7-10 emotes- but that is beside the point. Again, if mutations are the problem, they should be nerfed. Removing the Juliet's PK clause does not fundamentally alter a Homunculi's strength in combat- it only makes them slightly easier to deal with after the combat is done, after which point the player can simply return when their Tawkinist makes another Homunculus. Being able to force PK a construct after they are defeated does not effect their strength during the encounter prior. 

Edited February 8 by blackhand7

[ClassyDryad 2367]

Counterpoint, you should remove all hard PK stuff from the lore :)

[Karina 1881]

nah this is chill let it pass 

tho i cant even recall any time an hmonc has even been killed in this way 

mutations are cool but not being able to stack them with deific magics does functionally make it like losing access to a great other set of toolboxes. i'd argue a t5 templar is stronger then a 2 mutation klone even w/ bolstered reflexs + strength 

[salamanderfantasy 1340]

posting what i've said to blackhand in discussions before -- I think the issue with having a creator be the only one able to PK a homunculus is that homuncs are generally. More independant than other construct CAs. They don't need repairs, and they can get mutations from other people, there's no written-in obedience at all, and they're 100% on the free will scale. 

So creators can often have no interaction with their homuncs down the line, and also! Often go inactive, or quit altogether. ends up a bit of a logistical issue. 

I agree with the general intention of 'softening' the pk-ability of homuncs even though few PKs occur, because of the proactive nature. A few homunc players and tawkin users have been discussing it for a while now and agree there's a fair amount of risk for rules-legal but bad faith PKs for homuncs. There's nothing technically stopping a roadside bandit with good luck and a bottle of PK Juice from taking out complete strangers for a laugh.

so maybe throwing a few alternative pk-softening ideas around would be worth it.

[Tentoa 3160]

4 hours ago, Karina said:

nah this is chill let it pass 

tho i cant even recall any time an hmonc has even been killed in this way 

mutations are cool but not being able to stack them with deific magics does functionally make it like losing access to a great other set of toolboxes. i'd argue a t5 templar is stronger then a 2 mutation klone even w/ bolstered reflexs + strength 

A homunculi can theoretically:

See in 360 degrees around itself for a limited space using echolocation, dodge a crossbow bolt, and filter out toxins. This doesn't sound strong but let me paint the scenario for you

An orc strength creature in full platemail wielding thanhium can enter a fight with a pale lord, paramount, and Zar'ei - and be effectively immune to every spell in their arsenal due to armor + lack of soul. The Thanihium it wields can disable their magic or abjure it, and if they bring along potions, can obscure the battlefield in smog, smoke, or some other manner of alchemical subterfuge, thereby dominating it. The other contender for strongest CA- Golem, stands a chance due to tremorsense. 

Pound for pound, a prepared homunculi is the strongest CA on the server and eclipse even klones in their utility. Templar is very good, but you NEED to jump a fully mutated homunculus 

PArt of signing up to play this CA in the first place is knowing you might get got - when you make a CA - you agree on the tin you're prepared to get PK'd.

Tl:DR: They do not need a buff, they ABSOLUTELY do not need a buff.

[Tentoa 3160]

My counterproposal to this amendment is thus:

Tie Juliet's potion knowledge and homunculi creation to the kloning PK clause that way if you're capable of making homunculi and PKing them You've also got skin in the game. 

And I know many tawkinists will say 'But I learned Tawkin so I could heal and make homunculi! I don't want to be on the PK clause!' 

Give them the option to drop knowledge of homunculi and the potion and keep the feat. If you want into the mad scientist club you need to pay mad scientist door fees 

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

1 minute ago, Tentoa said:

My counterproposal to this amendment is thus:

Tie Juliet's potion knowledge and homunculi creation to the kloning PK clause that way if you're capable of making homunculi and PKing them You've also got skin in the game. 

 

i always thought this was just true since knowledge of juliet's = knowledge of means to circumvent death but yea this would work

[blackhand7 368]

1 minute ago, PrimnyaQuorum said:

i always thought this was just true since knowledge of juliet's = knowledge of means to circumvent death but yea this would work

Yeah Tentoa and I talked about it over DMs and I think I'm gonna edit the amendment to go with this