Fluffy Horror

@RigI know what the badges mean, I know what the cross means! Do you know what Rhodesian means? Also btw that player was reported and no one did jack shit about it. That Google Doc I linked was the report. This is going in circles at this point, you're stuck on it being a mislabel and not acknowledging the problem that it's getting name-dropped in the first place. There's no real point to continuing, I've said my piece.

@Rig1. All this over the name. And it didn't need to be all this, it's a very, very easy solution. 2. The Empire is both a single body and a group of other nations. 3. No they dooooon't, people be doing bad faith villainy all over the place with no consequences

@Rig1. Rhodesian Cross refers to the Cross of Rhodesia, a Rhodesian military decoration. Staff can only deal with so much. We as players should be spreading around the correction, too. People shouldn't get reported for using something in ignorance. 2. I wasn't around for Haense, so I have no idea how fascist or not fascist it was. Yes, everyone everywhere is doing bad things, it's not just limited to the Empire, but because the Empire is so much bigger, the scale at which they commit war crimes is much bigger, too. 3. Not always! I've seen a lot of bad faith villainy on LOTC. 4. Yup, that's a disagreement I'm cool with. @𝕾𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖚𝖘𝖍Yes, all of this! @Werew0lfWhat the **** does glaze mean

@Werew0lfNo, I have other opinions, I just agree that my other opinions are not popular enough to be implemented. But I think the enforcement of no name dropping Rhodesia is something that COULD realistically be enforced, therefore it is what I choose to advocate for. C'mon man, enough with the trolling. Hadrian is a madman after world domination. You have written a very compelling villain. Take credit where it's due, don't cheapen your writing by insisting that Hadrian is the good guy.

@RigCalling CHARACTERS fascists. Not people. Their CHARACTERS. They didn't call it the Maltese Cross. They called it the Rhodesian Cross. Okay, Haelun'or was not a genocide. You have laid out the arguments to sufficiently prove otherwise. The Empire has not committed a genocide yet. So, to lay out my "dogwater opinions" that you hard disagree about: 1. People should enforce not using the term Rhodesian Cross anymore, and correct people when they use it 2. Some people in power in the Empire are being deliberately villainous (do you feel they're the good guys?? Is this where this is coming from?? They're killing kids and advocating for the purging of entire races) 3. If you choose to play a villain character, you should be mindful about it 4. Each race should be allowed to maintain one place free of the influence of other races so that those who do not want to engage in racism/discrimination RP don't have to. Is it all of these points we disagree with? I get it, I play differently than people, these are my opinions but the culture of the server is different. Hence why I'm outlining them here in an opinions thread instead of reporting to the admins or something. I know full well that points 3 and 4 will not happen on LOTC. I'm not going to enforce my own personal opinions on the culture. My sticking point, the one thing that I believe actually needs to be dealt with, is the Rhodesian Cross thing. How hard is it to simply ask people to change one word? Can we call it the Maltese Cross? I'm not asking y'all to stop using the cross, just to enforce calling it literally anything else.

@KaiserNo? Don't put words in my mouth. If you see it happening, inform the player, and if they continue to do it, make a report. It's not that hard.

@KaiserSo what if they're jokes? Joking about that stuff isn't funny. We shouldn't encourage that. @CheeseycerealI feel like people have zeroed in on a singular example I gave, Haelun'or, rather than addressing the entirety of my argument. People are so focused on going "BUT YOU SEE, HAELUN'OR WAS EVIL, SO THEREFORE WE WERE RIGHTEOUS!" I'm not arguing about the morality of the situation. This isn't about Haelun'or. In fact, forget Haelun'or! People seem to be so, so upset that I am referring to the Empire as villainous, like that is a bad thing. It's not! Stories need villains! Do you genuinely think that Hadrian is a good guy, a hero? Do you think that Werewolf thinks that Hadrian is a good guy and a hero? No! He's playing a Caligula-like figure! He has gone out of his way to emphasize the character's cruelty. Same with a lot of other Empire characters. You do not need to be offended on their behalves. They know what they're doing. People should try reading 'The Guide to Ethical Villainy'. I know my opinion is very controversial. I think that people have a responsibility to uplift those around them in RP, even if they're on opposite sides. I get that isn't the culture of LOTC. @RigOkay, cool, people are poorly informed and don't know the symbolism of Rhodesia. I'm informing now. You are twisting yourself into pretzels to try to justify not doing anything about it. Is your genuine opinion "well, people don't know, and it's part of LOTC's history anyway, so just suck it up and keep watching people do it"? We can't maybe do something about it? The Empire checks some boxes on the 10 Pillars, which is enough for me to consider it as fascist. You have a different threshold than I do, clearly. Agree to disagree.

@Rig 1. I can see how the characterization of a group of fictional racists as being victims of genocide is offensive. Yes, their culture and way of life was destroyed, but it was a decidedly shitty culture and way of life. Traditionally people perceive genocide as something that happens to a blameless victim. But, much like how Catholics and Protestants keep trying to genocide each other, or how the Qing dynasty genocided the Dzungar Mongols after being HORRIBLY OPPRESSED by them, genocide can happen to groups that did horrible, bad, awful things. This is a fact, not a belief. 2. Then why are some people calling it a Rhodesian Cross? I didn't pull the name out of my ass. People are using that term on LOTC. 3. Monarchy is the system of government, fascism is the ideology. Truthfully the Empire is no one thing, it can fit into several systems and ideologies, but either way, the leaders are deliberately playing to villainy- which is not a bad thing! Just something that requires a delicate touch!

@RigGenocides can happen to terrible people, too. Hell yeah Haelun'or was evil and racist. Cool story, still genocide. The bombing of Dresden didn't target an entire ethnic group. Haelun'or was the sole state of a homogenous ethnic group. Video games do not exist in a vacuum. We can, and should, in fact, apply the real world to our understanding of them. If it's just a cross, why are people calling it the Rhodesian Cross? The Empire on LOTC IS fascist. It is intended to be. People put fascists in media all the time for storytelling purposes. The difference is how that representation of fascism is handled. There is an ethical way to include stories of discrimination, fascism, and genocide in your games- especially when it's not NPCs playing the victims, but real people. What about that rhetoric is harmful? It just boils down to don't be a ****, check on your fellow RPers, and don't use actual real life Nazi dog whistles for your fictional fascists. And I ultimately edited out my accusation of a copy and paste because I didn't want to use ad hominem. It was rude of me, and I apologize.

1. Lemme grab the references for you, will post them soon. EDIT: deleted active report 2. I was in the throne room, the Emperor said "kill all the elves", and they slaughtered the entire delegation, including kids and spectators. They then went and sacked the library- a main feature of the culture and the compendium of their people's knowledge, permanently destroying or stealing their heritage. They were scattered to the winds and have nowhere safe to practice their cultural beliefs anymore. It falls under b and c. 3. I have my man, I have. I studied sociology, genocide studies, and women's studies as part of my degree. Granted, that was over a decade ago, great advancements in our understanding of these subjects have undoubtedly been made. In addition, Holocaust studies is a mandatory course in Canadian schools, every year. I also serve on a DEI Board (I know, the dreaded DEI) for an international organization, and have taken training courses to better do my job with that. I am well aware that I am far more on the left than most people on LOTC, so I don't try too much to impose my values on everyone I meet, but there are a few sticking points I would assume even the more central leaning people can agree on, like not referencing Rhodesia.

@RigLike I said, if people called it the Maltese Cross, I wouldn't care, but they called it the Rhodesian Cross. That's not a symbol that was co-opted, Rhodesia was just fully a white supremacy nation. It's not like it's Nazis stealing Norse imagery. It started out that way. C'mon man, Haelun'or was just genocided. Yes yes, they were also horribly racist, it doesn't change the fact that it was a genocide. Where's the call for other people to take responsibility? I have never once personally attacked people in this thread. I shed some light on the inadvertent use of a white nationalist dog whistle, and called for mindfulness. That shouldn't be controversial.

@tasty_cheesecakeI must have missed the emote where you cut the wings off the cross, but I don't know how you would have done it, considering he was tied to it and you would have had to cut off his limbs to do that. My character was the one who cut his throat to end his suffering. She was making commentary along with the crowd, but planned to stay behind and slit the guy's throat once everyone else was gone so he wouldn't have to suffer. When yours suggested burning him alive, she gave up on waiting for people to leave and just threw the knife. What a character verbally says does not equal what they think. She ribbed the guards for not knowing the correct way to crucify someone to mask her own discomfort. Thanks for giving me the context, that makes sense. I thought you were talking about OOC reasoning on this thread, not your character's IRP reasoning. It makes perfect sense that a church member IRP would not want to crucify someone. @NoobliusI- why did people make a nation named after a fascist white ethnostate??? In the first place??? I didn't know that, that's really not coooooool. Regardless of the ill-advised decision to name a country after an IRL white nationalist country, people learn and grow. They may not have known about the irl context of it, so they aren't at fault for their ignorance there, but now that it is out there and people are being made aware, there is no excuse not to change the name of the cross. Like I said, it sucks to realize that you've accidentally been using a Neo-Nazi dog whistle, but once you know about it, if you continue to use it, yeah, that's bad. I genuinely thought that a certain slur was what the correct thing was to call a certain group of the people IRL all the way into University. I was calmly educated about it, and then I never used that term again. That's what you do. People are having knee jerk reactions here. Me calling the Empire fascist isn't me calling the players of the Empire fascist. IRP and OOC are two very different things. Me pointing out the racist symbols that are being inadvertently used isn't me calling the people who used them racist. Like you said, it's an issue of education. So I am educating.

@Rigplease point out where I said the entire player base of the Empire was doing x, y, or z. I am not attacking ad hominem, I am discussing real issues. Sure, it can be argued the symbol has been used by many. If people called it the Templar Cross, or the Warhammer Cross, I wouldn't care. But people are calling it the Rhodesian Cross, which puts it into a very specific context. @Werew0lfwe can discuss this like the adults we are without resorting to ad hominem. Oh no, a single one of my characters has/had an unrequited crush on a single knight, which I discussed and asked permission to do OOCly before I did so, as well as thoroughly established boundaries, how horrible of me... 🙄 While I am sure the Empire has some irl racist fascists, like everywhere, I never claimed that all of you were racists/fascists. And I don't think that! People are not their characters, and just because someone roleplays a fascist, it doesn't mean they are one IRL, obviously. I just think that people get too carried away on their characters and forget that this is a game. We can be a lot nicer to each other OOC. We can do horrible racist crimes to elves and then check in with their players to make sure they're okay. We can make sure that we're leaving safe spaces for every race. We can treat each other with human decency. We can have conversations about issues without flipping TF out.

@Werew0lfit was name-dropped as the Rhodesian Cross at the coronation, and I've seen it name-dropped by several priests... I get it feels bad to discover that you have been using fascist racist Nazi symbols, the correct thing to do when you find out something like that is to make a change. You're right, this IS a serverwide issue on LOTC, and a problem with the culture in general, but it is currently especially egregious in the Empire, which is a nation deliberately intended to be fascist- that just means you have to be all the more careful to be respectful about it. I'm not suggesting that fictional racism be banned and we all hold hands and sing Kumbayah. I'm saying that people need to be a little bit more conscientious about the people behind the screen. There are respectful, considerate ways to play a horrible racist character, and too few people take the time to do that.

@Werew0lfHey man, there's no need to be condescending. You're a staff member, you gotta be better than this. Never said burning at the stake was a trigger, I just think in terms of sucky deaths it's on par with crucifixion, and they both have been used in the same historical contexts. So I wanted to know why tasty was okay with one, but not the other. Racism is far more insideous than "You're a different skin colour so I hate you". Only the very tip of the iceberg is above water, easy to see and identify. The rest of it is harder to see, and thus people always live in the land of plausible deniability. It's very difficult to prove racism and discrimination in its subtler form. The burning at the stake isn't the issue here, it's that a cross was set on fire, and, again, the Empire is using the Rhodesian Cross. So, because there are actual humans behind the computer screen playing these characters, it's not "just elves", it is people watching elves experience the same kind of discrimination they might have gone through IRL. No one can separate themselves entirely from the characters in the game. And if you experience racism, as in your example, in real life, then come onto LOTC and experience it fictionally, it doesn't matter that it's over elves instead of your skin colour, you are still having to engage with it and navigate it. LOTC does not exist in a vacuum, it is a product of and influenced by the very real people who play it. Sure, elves don't exist IRL, but the systems of oppression they face on LOTC do. If you are discriminated against in real life because of your race, then log into your fantasy escapism game and experience the exact same thing with the serial numbers scratched off, or, worse, the same serial numbers (Rhodesian Cross...) you are going to be affected.

@tasty_cheesecakeIt still looked like a cross when it was lit on fire. But out of genuine curiosity, not accusatory in any way- how is burning at the stake RP better than crucifixion RP? They're both agonizing, torturous deaths that have been IRL historically used. I personally find burning at the stake RP worse.

Commenting again because something else came to mind- I think people need to consider what's happening in the real world a little more. People who are experiencing oppression, discrimination, apartheidism, genocide, colonialism, and other similar things IRL are naturally going to have a lower tolerance for that stuff in their fantasy escapism. This is a game, and is ultimately intended as an escape from real life woes. If it is no longer fun, it's not doing its job. It's really hard for a lot of minority groups IRL right now in the main counties that LOTC players are from. I've spoken with several people who have taken a step back from LOTC, or made new characters, because they didn't want to deal with fictional oppression in addition to real life oppression. I myself struggle greatly with some of the common Empire RP because it reflects IRL discrimination that I have been fighting against my whole life. People need to learn how to play to lift. There are too many people on LOTC who's main form of enjoyment is "winning"- people who go out of their way to crush other's roleplay experiences without thinking about the person behind the computer. People in positions of power need to be especially conscientious about this. Sure, it might be fun for you and your friends to go around lynching elves, but how are you affecting the players of those elves? Another thing is that people are just, fully using IRL symbols of oppression and fascism without doing research about their meaning, and it inadvertently causes so much grief. Some people burned a cross the other day and I was like 😬 And there's the fact that the Empire is widely using the RHODESIAN CROSS as a symbol- and it's not just people not knowing what it is, because they call it the Rhodesian Cross in game. That's a white nationalist symbol, created and used by a famous, prominent white nationalist nation that no longer exists. It's really triggering for people to see genuine symbols and instruments of their IRL oppression on a fictional game. It's like if the Empire started using the swastika.

I have a pretty unpopular opinion, which I'm well aware of, that each individual major Race should get their own Kingdom, and that other races shouldn't be allowed to conquer/own/etc another race's Kingdom. Like maybe designate one to three tiles that are safe from other races, and can't be conquered, including the Capital of a race's Kingdom. As per usual, the humans in fantasyland are really racist, which is fine when all the other races have a safe zone, but not when the Empire owns your race's Kingdom. Then you just get into Colonialism and Hostile Occupation roleplay, which isn't fun for a lot of people. Generally if people are playing a certain race, they want to get involved in the culture of that race. Being in a diaspora doesn't really properly allow that. No matter how much the parent Empire ostensibly on paper allows freedom of cultural practices, in RP, it doesn't shake out that way. Empires encourage and reward homogeneity, and punish individuality. So long as Imperial forces have the power to walk into any place and have authority, you are only permitted your culture so long as a random bored Imperial Guard doesn't want to take it from you. I also think that we should have more wars that don't have such high stakes. Right now, if you lose a war, you lose everything. I want to see smaller, pettier wars, where the loser just has to pay a fine or give back a McGuffin or something. Wars where no one really wins or loses, you just fight, lick your wounds, then fight again. IRL history is full of so many petty, miniature wars! The Drusco situation was fun, but when it ended, Drusco was completely annihilated. I want petty wars like Drusco without the stake being complete and utter annihilation. Declare a war about who owns a river cutting between both lands, loser has to publically apologize and give up fishing rights. Declare a war because another Lord called your wife ugly. BE PETTY!

Lady Gloria Taqui Leomonte wept with joy. Finally, patients and visitors weren't allowed to punch and scream at her with impunity. Maybe it was time to get back in the clinic. It was about to be a lot safer of an environment.

I don't know enough about the economy or nation starting to comment on the 25 signature requirement or the 25k mina requirement. I do have an opinion on nation uniqueness. From what I have seen, LOTC does not have a culture that encourages unique groups. Anyone trying to do something different gets crushed almost immediately. For example, a cool new fantasy religion just cannot exist, it would immediately be warred out of existence by the Church. With this being a gameplay trend, I think that the uniqueness requirement should be lowered or dropped. If people can get the numbers and the mina, and also set up in a way where they will not be immediately destroyed, why not? We cannot culturally enforce homogeneity and then demand uniqueness as a requirement for someone to do their own thing. The PVP question is a hard one. It sucks that, on a roleplay server, nations rise and fall from clicks. It means that a lot of really creative, cool nation ideas just can never happen, because they're never going to have more fleepers than the conventional nations. I don't think there's an easy solution to that, though. You can't exactly do CRP war claims.

"WAAAAGH! WAAAAAGH!" A sister echoed, and proceeded to paint herself blue with her paints.

"Papa, why do all these bad guys love the old Duke so much?" A girl-child asked.

@ChainedDragons Gloria Taqui Leomonte, spouse of Sir Silas, huffs and puffs as she takes her turn with the piece of paper over their lomo saltado. "Where's your personal apology?" Her voice shrills, her family undoubtedly well-used to her rage. "I know you asked me not to confront her, but can I punch her?" She makes sweet, begging eyes at her husband as their children likely roll their eyes. Fortunately for everyone, Sir Silas stands firm on the 'no violence against civilians' rule.

A proud Mother gazes upon the framed missive hung on the wall. "My little Reli, the next Lord-Paramount! I have never been prouder of him..." She weeps with joy, likely to the irritation of her husband, for it is four in the morning and she is still crying about it.