tomahawk90

((your link isnt working, at least for me it isnt))

Could be, it just should not have such a high risk I think, for that we are too easy targets. And as I said, maybe make one grand event for the event when we change cities?

I am getting pretty confused. You say I am dividing the city into districts and that it is something "we" do not want. If by "we", you mean the dwarves in general, I think you are only partly right (or I am misinterpreting you). I have heard over and over again that the city should have areas solemly for dwarves, and you are saying this too, which would automatically mean you would need to divide the city into districts, as you cant have everything secluded. Take for example the trade areas and all those other areas you mention. So yes, I am dividing the city into districts, but with all due respect, you are doing the same by moving trade outside of the city. You state that you want a "central square" in the trade area foreigners may use. In my opinion, and I think in general too, a central square is the center of a city. You are using it here as the center of the trade area, but there is no one or almost no one living here as the city is away from the trade area, making the central square a dead place. A central square is not only planned as being in the centre and being large, it should also have something that makes sure that social life is attracted to this place (this, partly, is my field of study). A central square inside the city would be such a place, a central square with only shops around it would not be such a place. My point: you are trying to create two cities, with a player base that is hardly enough to fill one. Maybe I wasnt clear enough: I do not want foreigners to enter our city either. As such, I think we are pretty much on the same wavelength here, just a few differences. BUT if you look at my schematic, I have still incorporated the trade area in the main cities schematic. Foreigners will only have access to the trade area, and all other buildings will be out of their reach or sight. The main profit to be taken from this, is that the city and the area accesible for foreigners SHARES its central square, which is the palace. This seems fitting to me, as dwarves hold their rulers in high regard. (foreigners have no access to the palace btw). As such, foreigners get as much access in my plan as they would get in your plan, apart from the fact that we let them see one level of our palace and a small portion of our underground mountain, but still they get to see less then was the case in Karik. The main difference in my opinion is that your plan is to create two cities, while mine is to create one city, so visitors have the feeling they are "inside" the city as well, while actually they are just on the doorstep but inside the mountain. Leland, the very thing you say you are going to do is what I am trying to prevent by reasoning, not only because I believe it would mean making the same mistake as has been done in Karik, but also because others believe so as well. I will probably not have many dwarves who will back me up on here as I mainly see high-ranking dwarves responding who are all on the same wavelength, but I have seen multiple posts on the forums stating "please do not split up the city", "please keep it simple", "please do not make a long hall with buildings along it", "please do not spread out the city again". Let me finish my maybe fierce wall of text with the fact that I very much enjoy this intelligent discussion and that sharing different point of views will eventually always lead to better decisions then those made by people who all share the same thoughts.

((MC name)): tomahawk90 Name: Urvil Clan (If you have one): none Subrace: cave dwarf Age: 124 Job: Stone Miner, architect (both on hold for study) Current Residence: Kal'Dwain

I am just a humble dwarf who is not in a position of power but I think the dwarves are way to busy to wage a war now, especially when it has such high risks. I think you have better chances when you come up with an idea that is properly backed up with lore that gives us dwarves a reason to leave Karik, which could be a war with Alras that turns bad. But I dont think this is the appropriate thread to discuss this either.

I think you could let trade happen in a small area of the city, but yet still in the city. I know many of you don't like that, but in my opinion you just can't seperate your whole city from the trade area and other races. The other races do not need us as much as we need them as they got each other when we isolate ourselves. I am not saying we should let them into our clan halls, homes, and certainly not that they would be allowed into libraries and religious buildings. But I dislike having a trade post completely outside of the city, it will not be as attractive for rp and for outsiders to come and set up shop as it would be when it was inside our walls. I also think that keeping foreign traders outside of our city is an attitude to hostile for us dwarves to be using. Why not let outsiders in to a small part of our city, and lock the rest of the city for dwarves themselves. As Broski made a sketch I want to link to my sketch too: >click< (its just another thread on this forum, no worries) And when will it be time to stop only talking about this new city and actually start planning in game events to trigger it all? I mean, you would need to decide on a final city plan (perhaps via a contest, much like IRL you have contests for architects to design a building with certain requirements) and make it known to all dwarves so we can all help and feel involved, you need to have some event that would trigger us to leave Karik (and Holm?) and set a date for it to happen so many dwarves can attend (perhaps let people vote for different dates or something so we feel involved yet again), but up until now I only see multiple threads springing up which all discuss the same matters.

You could add a temple to the 3rd floor in the housing district, and place the houses in the place of the religious district on the 4th floor. I couldnt place it on the entrance floor, as that would not be secluded enough. I think clan halls should only house so many dwarves, say 2 or something. In Karik, almost no-one uses their home as a home, as every function of their home is taken by a clan hall. I made sure to have the housing close to the clan halls, so for normal members I think they would need to have a house. Let Clans buy houses up in the housing district if they want, and give them the option to sell those houses too if their numbers decline.

I tried to solve the things I got critisim on, not sure if it turned out better but anyway, here goes. Please let me know what you like/dislike. Has a site already been chosen, is it a mountain and has building already started? I have a feeling this isnt really helpful, but then again, its just a paint picture so it doesnt take much of my time. I understand this, and to start out you would indeed focus on the most important sectors you just named. But in my opinion, if you do not plan ahead, you will at some point be thinking "if only we had build this hall a bit to the left/right" or thoughts like that. I think planning does not mean you have to immediatly build it. If you want a city that includes a lot of buildings with different functions which I believe eventually we do, and you want all these buildings to form one integrated city instead of a long corridor with buildings here and there, I believe you need to plan ahead and make sure it will all fit when you are ready to build the less important buildings. I just feel like the main error of Karik was not the sheer size of it all (although it didn't help) but the fact that everything was really spaced out and required long walks to get there. And I can see the same error being made pretty simply by not planning or by making a hall again. But that is just me ;) cheers schematic: 1 is highest, 4 is lowest level. Going from one level to another happens via the central building which is much like the palace in Karik. Foreigners can only reach the trade area, and diplomats may enter the central palace via the right gate via the diplomacy room. The clan halls are on the same level as many dwarves will hang around there, and I want to make sure it is easy for us dwarves to go out and trade and to go back in again. The mines had to be on the lowest level, and for convenience, the forge is placed at the entrance of the mines (maybe one day mine carts can travel from the mine towards the forge). As requested, the guild halls are now next to the forge and the library, religious sector and treasury are very secluded from foreigners as they are 2 levels lower then the entrance. The central gathering point for dwarves is right next to the central stairwell, in the middle of the housing district, so it can be reached from everywhere in the shortest amount of time, and it is far from the ground which foreigners may enter, so they wont be able to notice anything of us dwarves partying or discussing. Please criticize.

(( didnt see a post for this on the dwarven page yet)) 'ello all, me 'ad sum questions over our new docks and the 'orses ye see on the roads these days. Will all of us dwarves be able to use the boats, do we 'ave to pay, can outlanders use the boats and do they 'ave te pay, 'ow many boats will we 'ave, where will they go, will we discuss this or will the kings decide, will we 'ave them 'orses and do we 'ave te pay fur t'em? Thanks! Urvil

thanks Leland. I realise that many dwarves want the living and noble areas to be more secluded, but it automatically means that the city will be split up more too. If you do that, the question is whether or not there are enough dwarves going in and out of the city or staying in the tavern to give visitors from other races someone to rp with. I'll try making a new schematic later. Did I forget any important buildings in your opinion? Thanks for the criticism. Regarding the "bloody massive", well, it depends on how big you make each building I guess ;) I did not imagine it to be massive at all, actually quite small, certainly in relation to Karik now. Keep in mind I made this drawing while thinking of building inside a mountain, and mountains are only so big. What exactly do you think will be making it massive, as in, which district here would require lots of space in your opinion? All the different functions of the "castle" would be stretched over the whole height of the building, and the building goes all the way up to the top of the mountain or even further. There would be a floor for every function. If you didnt yet, please look at the links to the pictures I added at the bottom of my previous post to get the idea (its orzammar from dragon age). Out of curiosity, why should the forge be in the guild area, because of the smiths guild? If you move the religious sector and library away to a different level as you suggest, the guilds could take their place for instance. I would be happy with that, I want the guilds to be close to the industrial sectors (farming and mining) anyway and the religion and library are in particular for dwarves only I imagine. I'll be making a new drawing. I do have a hard time finding a balance between the seclusion many dwarves seek, while also making sure the city keeps alive and also interesting for foreigners. Together you two already mentioned every building in the schematic to be moved to be more secluded, which would break my entire circular design and would lean towards the previous schematics with long corridors. On those schematics I saw others comment that we did not want that again. This is why I added trade and docks "inside" the city, to have a flow of people through that area. One could still use a gate or two to seal of the rest of the city, leaving only that upperleft quarter to be open to foreigners, so they have access to trade, inns and the docks and thats it, while they can still marvel at the "palace" and arena (which I think should be accesible to foreigners without the need of letting them in to other parts of the city). And the rest of the city would be hidden from their view but still not to far away, so for dwarves, the city is, in fact, a city, instead of a road with sectors here and there. If you want everything else really secluded, it would need a long corridor which would break my circular design. That design was my main point, as it naturally creates a middle area where every dwarf has to travel through and can meet with each other. Also dwarves hold their rulers (who are usually also great warriors) in high regard, so it makes sense to have a majestic palace-like building as the centre of the city imho. Only thing I can imagine is indeed moving the trade area entirely away from the rest of the city, but that would probably mean that the trade area would be empty for most of the time and foreigners looking for trade would not find anyone around. This was something I really hated as a dwarf about Karik, no place to sell my wares except from some shops with signs on them to /tell someone. Your thoughts?

I dont know how much is definite yet, and though I'm not around for long, I have experienced the pain of the empty city of Karik too and I wanted to give my point of view too as I havent seen any ideas which represent my ideas well. The drawing is based on the, as far as I can tell at least, popular notion that the city should be build inside a mountain. I support this, it provides for a confined area to start of with, which is the first goal of the city, to be a bit confined, and it provides for plenty of space to extend to if the city grows, as you could dig quite a few number of blocks down. Short description and reasoning of my city plan: The docks inside the mountain by making the same archway as we have in Karik. Travellers ariving will arrive inside the city, feeling they are really visiting the dwarves, and making the city more lively and busy. Also this way, the trade district with the inns has more passers by and as such more potential, as travellers move from the docks to the main entrance and vica versa. There is only an armory because I read plans on disbanding the legion because during a war, every dwarf would be called upon to fight anyway. The armory stockpiles weaponry and could provide a place for one or two guards who are in active military service for peace-keeping and such. The clan halls are a bit secluded from the business of the trade district and the halls are facing a central plaza and each other. This is done to try and get the clans to work together more instead of being rivals on all terrains. I also think clan halls should have limited storing capacity, so clan members will use their homes too. The library is very important too in my humble opinion, as if it is done correctly, new dwarves can learn a lot about our culture and history from books. Copies of member registers for guilds for instance could also be stored here. The library and religious district are situated the furthest from the flow of people from and to the harbor as it is typically dwarven business. Houses should be rather small and have different prices not only based on the aesthetics of the house but also the location. The road to the farms leads up to a relativly flat area on the mountain side. The central building is the palace, arena, treasury, governmental seat, and a gathering point. It is a high rise building so it can have all these different functions. The arena is on ground floor, with grandstands around it. The palace is right behind it, and goes up and then bends over the arena, so at the highest level, one can enjoy a top-down view on the arena.inspiration taken from: 1 2 3 sorry for the strange dimensions of my pic, dont know how to fix it.

Mc name: Tomahawk90 How long have you been on this server: since right after the move to Asulon. What is your Timezone : GMT +1 Do you have Skype : aye Do you have Teamspeak : aye Details (How you work, what you like to build etc.) : Me likes buildin' great architecture 'nd me likes help building the dwarvish capital ta 'elp unite our race. Me likes te work with a plan, usually I make scale models in minecraft in creative befur startin me build in survival. I wont be the one buildin them cobblestone pillars, me 'ad a good lecture on the architecture bij the 'ead architect Ined. Me likes te build structures that need ta be mined out instead of constructin it frum the ground, and me likes dwarven architecture fur that reason, a lot, and me 'ave the patience ta build big structures in survival, me can mine fur hours! And me already be an architect with sum work in Holm, Kal'Karik and Kal'Dwain. Screenshots : ((please click me >link< to the architect guild application, ta prevent clutterin the forum))

I applaud the idea of moving. I joined this server two months ago and tried hard but for now am not really excited to play due to the dwarves being really split up. I too say build it in a mountain, if we ever need more space we can always extend the city downwards.

yes yes yes, this is what I needed when I joined and what I "kinda" raged about on the forum. This should help tons!

congrats Darius!

((skippy, could you help me with that too? I am mining guild member and resident of kal'dwain))

Aye, make my home prosper! +1, its a beautiful place already, and Darius can accomplish a lot of beautiful stuff in just a few IRL days so cant wait to see what this will turn in to.

out of curiousity, I havent been for a few days: how is it coming along?

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you type pretty well for someone with a terrible head-ache ;) on your point 6, the no armour thing, I totally agree. Whats the point in distrust because of difference in appearance (much like IRL unfortunately still) when you cant actually see it? Im not sure it should count for everyone, I cant picture a human or dwarf running around without armor in a battle, but for this race it definitely should. Then this almost automatically leads to having to have the standarized uniforms as guards would not be recognized as such as they cant wear armor: I think it would be awesome if characters had to use one and the same skin when on duty, they could change out of it when not on duty, it should help RP a lot. I know nothing of point 7, regarding 8: you rock, but you are right, getting a new race implemented on the forum is not the same as in game! I think you might struggle for a while, my guess is that new players will lean towards orcs, elfs, humans, dwarves as these are familiar. Not to demotivate you ofcourse, it is an awesome race! On priests, I dont know if this fits in your ideas but I thought it up when watching a documentary (just on tv, not forced in any way ofcourse00) and you say your priests are slightly insane; could it be that they use drugs in any way to "communicate" with the gods, also explains the "visions" which I guess priests will have way more often then common citizens.