Ventusyr

I know I don’t really matter any more and you guys can do whatever you want with Tahariaean morality, but “don’t ***** around and maybe act like a religious person when playing a cleric” doesn’t seem that unreasonable or strict.

I wrote the last accepted lore, and there are a number of things that jump out to me here that worry me. Don’t get me wrong, I 100% agree a rewrite was needed; I was writing one a month after the one I wrote was implemented. I am an inactive player, so feel free to disregard what I have to say, but I want to make sure that the heart of clerical magic RP remains the same: a fun, intriguing religious and holy experience that shows the power and character of an Aengul to fellow players. I’ll focus on my concerns for the FUN AND UNIQUENESS portion of this first. FUN AND UNIQUENESS The complaint of Priest Healers stealing RP from normal doctors has been one that has plagued every holy healer since the dawn of time. This is valid, which is why I made an effort to focus in my lore to detail the rituals and technical process one might go through in order to provide a good, fun, unique experience for players. It is NOT a replacement for a doctor visit. I find your statement that clerics turned into “healing bots” that did “instaheals” very concerning, because that would indicate clerics waving their hands and making wounds disappear. Is that really what happened? This rewrite also does not solve the conflict between mundane and clerical healers. A straight nerf does not help. The only solution is for magic healing to be used less, and when it is used, to be a drastically different experience to mundane healing. When I had played a cleric, I identified firmly with being a Priest Healer. That title comes with three responsibilities: you are a priest first, a healer second, and lastly you are a priest healer (in the magical sense). A religious dedication to healing spurred clerics to learn how to assist the wounded and sick, which necessitated studying anatomy and traditional healing. By the time you’d learn how to heal someone magically, you were already a very competent doctor. Because of how strenuous clerical magic is, clerics really should be using mundane methods of healing before even thinking of using their magic, otherwise its a waste of energy. And the magic was strenuous; a Tier 5 cleric would barely have been able to manage more than a few Tier 3 healings in an Elven days. One Tier 4 spell would have been a workout, and a Tier 5 spell would’ve been crippling. If there were healers running around without playing the weaknesses of the magic, that is its own problem, and I fail to see the necessity of a rewrite to appease doctors because people weren’t playing the magic right. I read this and was immediately confused. This must have been misinterpreted. The progress in power was never supposed to be that quick or prominent, which is why it is defined as “slowly” and “gradually”. A year-old Tier 5 cleric would be mildly better than a cleric who just crossed over from Tier 4 to Tier 5, and a cleric that was three or four years old would be recognizably better, but not “I can snap and people’s bones seal together” better. To be fair, I never actually specified that in the original lore - another failing of mine - but I kind of figured clerics might have common sense when it came to that. You’re not going to become an OP clerical god after three years, you just maybe wouldn’t throw up blood after reattaching a limb. That said, establishing a limit is fair, the IC reasoning being too much Aengulic energy would likely kill a cleric. The change of priest healing becoming gradual is… Unnecessary, in my opinion. The issues people have with priest healing are that it steals fun RP away from doctors and that its used too much for being such a powerful magic. The nerf doesn’t really make it any less of a powerful magic, and it honestly seems MORE like a replacement of mundane healing now, with patients leaving with bandages and casts and needing to allow their limb to heal normally. The RP experience with a cleric is also unchanged, clerical scar recovery is RPed exclusively by the patient. You’re not holy EMTs. You’re miracle workers. It remains just as not-fun for doctors and now it’s arguably less fun for the clerics. I’m reading a lot of comments here that point out how Tahariaean clericism brings nothing to the table that Ascended and Paladins of Xan don’t already. This is valid, and before I left the server, I was trying to figure out ways to change that. I think what may prove to make things more fun and interesting for both clerics and their patients is making all healing ritual-based. No more of this “simple prayer, conjure light, put light on person until healing done” process. That isn’t interesting and that’s how every holy caster has always done their spells. Heck, do away with the tiers entirely, and just have spell rituals that can be learned by clerics with a week or month of study or something. Is it still magic healing? Yes. But you aren’t just a healing bot anymore, you’re proper priests. ANY healing magic becomes a real event, and mundane healers become extremely important again, as they can provide aid to people more immediately. Because at the end of the day, with non-combat magics, it isn’t about how OP it is. It’s about how FUN it is. It’s about providing good RP with our magic. It’s about everybody having a good time. Making priest healing - and cleric magic in general - ritual-bound makes it unique and fun for cleric, patient, and the pleb non-cleric doctor who now gets patients who don’t want to wait for clerics to whip out the candles and incense and sacrifice a goat. As far as War Clericism goes, though… I don’t have an answer. I’ve never liked doing war cleric RP as much as I liked priest healing RP. Clerics share flames with the Ascended from the brief time that clerics had Aeriel as a patron. They share weapons with the Paladins of Xan because… Well, I don’t have a reason for that at all. I would suggest war clericism be done away with entirely, and instead replaced with blessing and warding magics. Imbuing Aengulic power into objects beforehand, and using those items, instead of a whole branch of magic made up of spells that are borrowed from other holy magics. I also can’t speak to divine wardenism as I never saw it in practice, but if merging it with clerical lore makes sense, so be it. However, it was a neat magic that made clerics more unique, and I feel that this lore took some aspects of Wardenism without actually keeping much of the uniqueness of it. As others said, this lore is really basic. It’s just fine. But clerics shouldn’t just be fine, they should be unique, and with holy magic kind of being oversaturated, we gotta stand out. HOLY EXPERIENCE Clerics are religious. There is no way around that, and it kind of seems like there is a push to make clerics more low-key and magical healers/warriors than they should be. First off, the Tenets. Not sure why the order the tenets are listed was changed from the traditional order it has been since Braxis wrote it, but whatever. I notice you apply a veeeery liberal interpretation. Why are clerics becoming self-centered? That doesn’t seem cleric-like at all. You were handed a mission from a god; this isn’t just a magic. Now that you’re changing the mission of the clerics, you’ll have to define evil and why Tahariae had a sudden change of heart. In the past, not killing impure creatures was only done when leaving them alive would lead to more impurity eradication. Tahariae’s concept of purity was also simple and clearly defined. “Evil” is not. What the heck is this? Since when did Tahariae have such a fragile ego that people cursing his name must be eradicated? That seems like a waste of time in his mission of cleansing the world of impurity. This rubs me the wrong way. Tahariae’s mission involves protecting the world and the Descendants from impurity. Clerics MUST rush to the aid of Descendants if their purity and safety is threatened, otherwise they’re failing to be truly dedicated to Tahariae’s cause. If there’s an innocent man dying in the streets, clerics don’t get to just walk past him. If a Dread Knight comes in to kill some civilians, you don’t get to just ignore him. Clerics have a mission, and from the moment they accept their connection and adopt clericism, they are bound by that mission. The aura colors, too, seem iffy to me. These are a bit different to how they were originally designed, especially White and Blue. White I don’t mind as much, as the description I wrote for White never felt right. However, Blue is just… Too much of a change. You specify that they favor combat strength over anything else, but half the Blue-light clerics I had known - me included - were devout priest healers who were rarely involved with fighting. The descriptions should be (and were) observational, not prescriptive, and also open enough that players still had flexibility to play their cleric how they want. Take the “value combative strength over all else” out of the blue light description, and stick with one that doesn’t shoehorn a blue-light cleric into becoming a War Cleric that only reluctantly heals. That’s all I have to say about that. Clericism needs to be fun and unique for both the player and the people that get to experience it. As it stands, this lore is not unique, and makes it arguably not fun, especially for doctors still. It is largely the same as the lore currently in place, with only very subtle changes that seem unnecessary and don’t address the complaints made. A more drastic change is needed. EDIT: I totally forgot to ask: where are the Utterings of Tahariae? Those were the actual words and instructions of Tahariae for the clerics, generated through four in-game events in which Tahariae spoke through the prophet Ashanaak. You’re going to need some sort of RP reasoning for those being tossed out.

When I wrote the clerical revision/lore back in October(?) of 2015, I had been told Blood Magic and Tahariaean Clericism were incompatible, and that war cleric light would directly combat spells fueled by blood magic. I wrote it as such, and thus far such hasn't ever been contested because of the severe lack of blood magic and clerical magic interaction. For now, I'll assume I was wrong in Tahariae deeming blood magic a sinful, abhorrent accessing of the natural mana present in blood. That said, even if this lore were passed, it would take a vision from the Aengul of Purity Himself to stop the immediate disconnections of any cleric who acquired this magic, and to justify why suddenly clerics are able to pursue something previously widely assumed to be a sin, if known at all. Unwarranted disconnections are also considered to be disconnection-worthy, and are accompanied by a vision from Tahariae telling people to disconnect the cleric who performed said unwarranted disconnection. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I feel like this magic entering into the clerical community in any way other than divine intervention would lead to some conflicts. ... Honestly, divine intervention doesn't sound like a bad way to implement it into holy RP. Just saying.

Well, it's since been changed, but originally the wording was something along the lines of "It allows a cleric with a connection to Tahariae to work miracles". However, it's been changed now so anybody can use it with just an incantation, so all is good!

First off, I'm very sorry you had a stomache, especially caused by the player outcry. It's no fun at all. Second, the clerics are actually the only ones who can use the tome; it requires a cleric with a connection to Tahariae to activate. So, while the clerics don't have any greater right to it, its useless to anybody else that finds it, and it seems to be the only one that does. If these tomes are going to be accessible to everybody, then maybe y'all should change that tome a bit? Just needed to point that out.

Yeah as I replied to Aengoth, a lot of those are hella OP. I was just coming up with any random, unique things that came off the top of my head as I was writing. I would actually be much, much more a fan of my last suggestion, where if opened it gives people in the surrounding area visions of a realm where true purity has been established, of a stag walkin around or somethin like that. It would become a cultural artifact that would provide a more religious base, rather than an OP magical one. Perhaps all of them should be shifted to be moreso cultural artifacts than OP magic tools.

@Salvo And I am in full support of what you are saying. You're right, these tomes are powerful, especially the warclaim-defense tome, and that unbalances things ridiculously. I would also rather have something more accessible to the majority of the playerbase than some tomes that will be gained and then stored in a chest somewhere never to be used, and if these tomes ARE going to be implemented, to give them more aesthetic abilities than mechanical ones. However, I am assuming that these tomes will lead to some sort of larger RP that is accessible to more people. Also, don't include clerics in the having-ET friends category. I've been pretty outspoken in private mediums about clerics not pursuing a "protagonist" or important role, and the last semi-important event we were supposedly involved in was a cancelled eventline where we were designated as antagonists, and didn't really participate in (The harvester events! Everybody loves those, right???) because we had more important things to work on. Clerics have not benefited from the "If you're part of this group, you get to be part of events!!1!" perks, and I want it to stay that way. I'd rather more world-wide events happen than tiny events for specific groups. However, I also think that we should give the almost-entirely new roster of the LT a chance. I know for a fact the Tome of Purity won't end up in the hands of clerics unless directly engineered by LT (don't do that LT, by the way), because we're focusing on other things, but who knows? Maybe they'll lead to something interesting that provides RP for people who aren't directly tied to orders of Aengudaemonic service.

Yeah I was legit just pulling stuff out of my ass on the spot. Def would want some of the things I said to be nerfed, especially the Itharel-esque idea, but my dislike of the tome as it is remains. Heck, I wouldn't even mind if it didn't have any legit crazy magical stuff. Maybe Tahariae gives visions or something when its opened to everybody around, an insight into what true Purity looks like, and wouldn't need a cleric to activate. Something to make more group RP, because as it stands, that tome is never going to be used by clerics and doesn't provide much RP other than being a special book. If it is going to be a tome of power, it having a unique /power/ seems a lil... Expected. I do appreciate the tomes though! I am interested to see what RP they will bring.

... Why is it the Tome of Purity does literally everything a master cleric could already do, but less efficiently (a master cleric doesn't have to wait two weeks after connecting a limb, for example)? If it can only be activated by a cleric, its literally magically useless, save for being able to do these things after a longer period of time. In comparison with the other tomes (Giant impenetrable bubble shield for Xan's, an undead army for Iblees's) it's really, really underpowered, and not unique whatsoever. EDIT: Because negatory statements with no alternatives are annoying and unhelpful, here are some effects for the tome I'd like to propose instead: The imbuement of holy power into a wide radius around the tome that incinerates tainted beings and heals people within the region, sealing deep wounds and bringing fallen from the brink of death. This would not require a cleric to use. Actually bringing somebody back to life. Turning the cleric temporarily into an "avatar" of Tahariae, clothing them in holy robes and armor impervious to taint and lifeforce tendrils and granting them to perform great miracles and summon forth war cleric spells effortlessly. This would last, I don't know, an Elven hour, or the duration of a battle, after which a pillar of light would burst upwards and out of the cleric and he would fall to the ground unconscious, remembering nothing of his deeds. Summoning forth a stag that stabs people with holy antlers. These are just a couple ideas I'm coming up with on the spot. My point is, the current abilities of the Tome of Purity is basically just a way for an already-achievable miracle to be worked with little energy cost to the cleric, which, quite frankly, isn't unique whatsoever, and would kill all the RP made from said miracles otherwise (long rituals that can require multiple clerics and always require components, and exhaustion post-healing so the patient takes care of the cleric).

Wait okay, I'm still confused how blood magic and necromancy would be compatible with druidism... Or anything. The reason why those are dark arts is because they are distortions of the natural order of things, manipulating power that should never have been tapped. Blood magic wears away at the psychological health of those who use it, and slowly drives them mad, because of the unnatural nature of it. Tahariae's magic combats blood magic because it comes from a source that should never have been utilized. I'm sure Paladins, with Xan being the Aengul of Order, would have issue with something that violates the natural order of things too. I also believe necromancy wouldn't be compatible with druidism because it is an unnatural manipulation of life force. Yes, it can be used to help trees grow, but necromancy involves transferring life force from point A to point B. I'm sure the Aspects would have issue with the magical draining of Point A to begin with. I don't know. As much as I like the idea of "dark clerics", as you, Swgr, briefly started with the Vehement Covenant, its completely incompatible with dark arts. Really, all holy patrons are incompatible with it (excluding Metzli because I don't know her ideology, and Yeu Rthulu to a degree) because Dark Arts are the unnatural distortions of natural orders of things. The very nature of them defies what the holy patrons want from the realm.

I echo this. Aengulic superiority complexes aside, if we are to make Dark Arts no longer actually "dark", and usable by deity magics, why not Voidal magics as well, which are explicitly neutral and only upset the Druidic balance of nature? The only Dark Art here I can see becoming legitimately gray would be Blood Magic, but I think I'm biased because I've wanted to start making rituals that involve blood sacrifice and anointment for clerics, and this would introduce a magical reason for said rituals. I was also under the impression spells that utilize the power of mana in the blood were tainted.

A cleric who chooses to go through the disconnection process does not fear it, and they are the ones who get let off from the effects. However, do to this being the fourth time people have had issues with this form of disconnection, and you're right, there's established disconnection lore, I'll remove it and edit said disconnection section to reflect that. Blessing for low-tier clerics was nothing more than minor aesthetic stuff, nothing incredibly complex. Its legitimately holy alteration. A Tier 1 Voidal alterationist would be able to make tiny enchantments; thats what I was trying to do with this lore. This is an excellent point. That was also conflicting wording. I meant "difficult" when I should have written "complex" In the same way a Voidal alterationist's enchantments are unstable and weak, so are a Tier 1 holy alterationist. However, considering the general negative response to this system of blessing, I suppose I'll just write in that it can't be approached until after reaching T4 or something in one of the branches. I'll think on exact numbers. Genuine curiosity. What is the established rate of progression for magic on the server? I've heard six months and I've heard a year, and I was trying to reflect that in this lore. Which is more in-line with how most magics do things? I am aware that tiers are no longer canon, but I would like to have clerics reflect the cultural standard.

... So if the cleric doesn't fear disconnection... Then the effects go away after a time... I notice a bit of an issue in logic. it may be simpler, but in practice, it binds people already salty about losing their connection to the cleric community permanently by forcing them to roleplay their character being a broken mess. I'd rather have a flat disconnection rate for everybody that is temporary with an exception for masters who do not go on to work for other deities. The key word for that view of blessing is was. I have heard the "sustaining otherworldly magics unconsciously" explanation, but... What does that even mean. Prior to the publishing of my first lore, there were a total of three clerics who knew blessing, all semi to not active, and so the majority of clerics never saw it in practice. It wasn't in our roleplay, and in the end, that's the only important thing: whether or not it creates good roleplay. Having it be only accessible to masters of the art is not creating good roleplay unless the masters are active all the time. Clerical blessing is better thought of as simply alteration with a different power source, and in every place it is written down in the closest to lore clerics had, that is what it was defined as. In practice, that is what it is, and the lore I have written redefines it so it is no longer requiring of an incredible connection. It's more tiring, but it is not incredibly difficult. I'm trying to dispell the rampant elitism that plagues magic on this server and make it accessible to anybody who feels like being a holy enchanter (which, as a new player, all you can do is small aesthetic boons anyways) so people can actually roleplay with it. However, considering this protest has been brought up already, I shall convene with the clerical community and see what people want. EDIT: A middle ground has been decided. I will clarify blessing's difficulty and the alien concept of summoning a finite amount of light, thus making blessings done by younger clerics nigh-useless but technically still possible. In this way, it shall only be something that clerics attempt only when they have a significant control over Light, and have conceptual knowledge of how to go about blessing an object..

Of course. The time is being debated, but three weeks, I felt, was enough time to bring RP from the disconnection. It may be lengthened, it may be shorter. Which would you rather?

For below Tier 5, the longer you are a cleric, the longer the effects persist. I wrote in the system of an Elven week per tier. A Tier 3 would suffer from disconnection effects for three weeks (three IC years) before they would abate, which I figured was time enough for punishment for clerics who have only been a cleric for a couple months. I did not want to draw a distinction between willing and unwilling: that would mean that the people who are salty over losing cleric magic would also now have to roleplay their character being broken, and people who decided they were bored with clerichood would have no punishment whatsoever. No, its best to have a flat disconnection effect, and a punishment that worsens the longer you stay a cleric, which makes more IC sense anyways.

I would like to ask you wait for me to post the section on disconnection before vehemently disagreeing with it. The effects are permanent only if the cleric is Tier 5, and if they join with another deity the effects are banished completely. "Deity-hopping" is now fine, as is leaving if clericism isn't what they thought it would be. Tier 5 is a little late to think "oh shoot I don't wanna do this anymore", and if it is, then that's an enormous shift in character and the effects of traditional disconnection are meant to accompany that literal betrayal of the Aengul by a trusted servant. And the effects lessen over time, even if they do not completely go away.

Well, the vast majority of these spells have been in the clerical repertoire since Aegis, but yes, shielding was edited and I did use arcanism to inspire said edits. I also made sure to clarify clerics do not claim superiority in any realm that has a Voidal counterpart, though seeing as I pulled the magical stuff out of the thread because everything italicizes after the Utterings of Tahariae, said clarification will be here... Soon. Thank you! Will edit golems out.

- I have been told often that holy magic does not mix well with golem cores due to the manipulation with souls or something. I would be fine removing that if a golemancer comes and confirms that golems have not ever been susceptible to holy powers. Alchemical creations, such as humonculi, are definitely susceptible to holy power. Every RP experience with humonculi involved has definitely involved holy magic affecting them badly, because they are soulless beings that are a mimicry of natural life. - With all due respect, clericism predates arcanism. Arcanism is war clericism with many many added abilities. I don't recall clerical shields only working against tainted magic; there are very few tainted projectiles and weapons in the Dark Arts. - Weapons are literally only for dramatic executions and cannot be held for longer than fifteen to thirty seconds without the cleric passing out, and we cannot summon armor. That said, these abilities are powerful at the expense of versatility and efficiency. They do not come anywhere near the magical capabilities of Voidal mages due to longer, indiscreet casting times, not to mention clerics are bound by a strict code of conduct that, if broken, results in character-scarring disconnection. I mean, if we're going to compare clericism to arcanism directly... It is very clear that arcanists, who can throw an assortmentblunt projectiles, summon weightless weapons they can actually fight with, defend with incredibly-strong shields that can injure the assailant when broken, create gigantic pillars of mana and shoot lazerbeams, and create shockwaves with their shields, are much, much more powerful in the magical field. Not to mention arcanism only takes up one available slot for learning magic, and can add other magics to their repertoire. War cleric magic is powerful, but Voidal magic is far, far more. Clericism essentially possesses singular spells that are the very nerfed equivalent of Voidal magics.

no :^)

Changelog: Editing fixed. To do: Edit significantly/remove specialization in war clericism Edit emotes, overall descriptions, and spell explanations in Blessing to clarify its difficulty for clerics.

•Clericism• Lore on Tahariae: https://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/123510-tahariae-aengul/ Lore on Yeu Rthulu: https://www.lordofthecraft.net/forums/topic/94939-yeu-rthulu-aengul/?page=1 Table of Contents A Short Introduction How to Read This Lore What’s New? Why The Update? Clerics: An Overview Clerical Magic: Key Terms The Utterings of Tahariae Connection Priest Healing War Clericism Blessing and Warding Disconnection A Short Introduction How to Read This Lore What’s New? Why The Update? Clerics: An Overview Clerical Magic: Key Terms The Utterings of Tahariae Connection Priest Healing War Clericism Blessing and Warding Disconnection

I feel like this could be a culture developed within the Druids, a split created from Grigario's teachings. The magic seems like a less-good version of Druidic magic, with a focus on beefing up beasts.

I've been wanting to start doing things with necrolytes for some mini non-ET event things. I was worried I'd have to submit a CA every time one of those mini-events was over and my ghoul was dead. For less paperwork, I support!