ChonGojDragonski
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Posts posted by ChonGojDragonski
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Why do you refuse to format any of your posts? It'd make them 10x better, please god just do it.
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I am in favor of this suggestion. However.
38 minutes ago, Llir said:"just remove major healing entirely"
You said it better than I ever could.
EDIT: I take it this is an idea thread? The actual way this will be implemented should be specific and tailored to each Magic. I'm +1ing the idea, but certain Magics should have redlines in regards to this new amendment and there should be some minor differences in how it's worked into the lore. This will also have to fit in with the upcoming Holy rework.
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-1.
I've seen several separate instances where she's participated in poor Roleplay bordering on meta-gaming, as well as outright ignoring perfectly valid Roleplay because they couldn't be bothered to respond. As someone who is supposed to moderate Roleplay interactions on the server, I am not confident in her ability to make an objective decision due to the failings I've observed in her own Roleplay conduct.
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7 minutes ago, dogbew said:
Obviously, while I was Director of the FM everything the Team did was ultimately my responsibility, but I think its important to recall the tenants and directive stated in your Forum Moderator Handbook. The directive is three things, with a few additions here and there; "Encourage discussion", "End Harassment", and "Serve the Community". Obviously the FM Team missed things here and there under my reign, but its important to realize that the big picture is about the overall conduct of the Forums, rather than every individual post. Overall, our goal was to target posts that were toxic, rude or otherwise against the Forum Rules or the Community Guidelines.
And that's why I'm commenting on your application versus the entire FM team? I wasn't commenting on the conduct of the FM team specifically, but your clear bias when it came to handling certain cases over others and the utter refusal to admit that perhaps a mistake had been made.
7 minutes ago, dogbew said:So, while your posts were removed for their toxic nature; there are many other posts like the ones you showed here that weren't, because they were either not overly toxic in nature, provided important criticism that could overlook the slight rudeness of their post, or were insignificant in comparison to other discussions that were going on at the time or other work that the team had to do and were overlooked.
My post was and I quote,
"It seems the GM and Administration team chooses their members on the basis of how incompetent a job they could do."
That post is quite literally on par with every single one of the posts above, the vast majority of them offering no criticism or being relevant to nothing other then someone griping. Can you really claim that any of those posts were different from mine on a fundamental level?7 minutes ago, dogbew said:When it comes to moderati....-snip-
More of that staff double speak and avoiding the question. Was there an inconsistent enforcement of the rules when it came to certain people? The answer is undoubtedly yes. Another example that comes to mind is my post regarding that of Frost Witches which was promptly hidden and all attempts I made to contact you about it were ignored. It's not just me this has happened to, but several others.
Sorry but the fact remains. Dance around it all you want. Some posts were hidden from certain people that weren't hidden by others, this is objective fact, and you deny the possibility that there might have been a mistake. I don't care if it was intentional or not, it happened. That is not the conduct of an unbiased Game Moderator and not anyone I would want to see with in game policing power.
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1 minute ago, Arhbi said:
There's literally nothing wrong with any of the posts you linked.
Exactly. My post was the exact same as all of those posts, and it was hidden. One of many examples of selective moderation under the guise of "interpretation". I can bring other people into this with similar experiences, but that's their prerogative and for another thread. And frankly, the two FM's that spoke up for Dogbew, were in their own echo chamber of being in Forum Moderation.
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All of these are examples of posts that weren't hidden, while a post I made complaining about the GM and Administration team was. The community guidelines were not broken, and there was nothing inherently different from the post then of the posts I've shown above. I can admit that the post was made in poor taste, and in hindsight I wouldn't have made it, the point remains that there was absolutely no reason to hide it and upon being called out, Dogbew proceeded to give the typical Staff doublespeak that completely avoided the point. This is just one of many examples. I can list several regarding myself or other people, though I'd prefer not to take this thread off topic.
The fact remains, there is a large inconsistency when it comes to moderating the Forums both directly from Dogbew and from the forum team as a whole. Being the director, I think it's more then fair to blame Dogbew for the overall conduct of the team.
2 hours ago, devvy said:instead, you opted to complain after being demoted and claiming you didn’t care for the team. maybe it’s wrong of me to assume this, but i believe your -1 comment stems from you simply being unhappy about your expected removal.
Because it's literally in the staff conduct guidelines that while you're on the staff, you can't open disagree with a decision that was made by your peers/higher up? The time of me complaining has nothing to do with the validity of my actual complaints, and believe me when I say that I couldn't be arsed about being removed from the team; and you attempting to brush off my valid criticism as a mere personal vendetta is frankly unneeded.
2 hours ago, Belestram said:Dogbew never intended for picking through favoritism as this suggested. A common thing in the FM is that everyone sort of follows their own logic when deciding what or not to hide, as it's a pretty broad range of what people can say on a day to day basis. While this isn't necessarily good, it isn't something you can blame @dogbew for.
Doesn't matter what he intended, the fact that there was favoritism is enough of a problem? And I can certainly blame Dogbew for refusing to acknowledge that there was an inconsistency in his moderation when directly faced with the facts.
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-1
Due to the nature of my tenure on the Forum Moderation team, I doubt that my comment will be prescribed any weight, but I'd be remiss if I didn't throw in my two cents.While he was Forum Director, there were several occasions where I saw behavior that bordered on targeting in regards to a few people. Certain posts were hidden from certain people while similar posts from other people were left untouched. There was very little insight into why these posts were hidden, and when an answer was pursued, the justifications given were weak and the feedback ignored. I'm not comfortable with anyone who blatantly pick and chose when and how he would decide to enforce a certain rule based off of how much he liked you OOC. I can see a host of problems coming from someone who acts like this as a GM, as well as the fact that dogbew demonstrates a certain holier than thou attitude when speaking with him. This is present in a lot of staff members, but it's not a quality a GM should have when they are typically victims of blue tag syndrome.
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Accept. This. Man. I don't know how he acted in his previous tenure, but I know how he'll act now.
+1
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-1. I have no confidence in your ability to moderate the forums in an unbiased way.
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Just now, Cordial said:
Haha, I've stated my points, and find no use in babbling with a forum lurk. Take care.
Quality bants. Gets exposed for not knowing their own lore, proceeds to bow out of the discussion with ad hominem. And Ascended wonder why they have such a bad rep and people outright campaigning for the removal of their magic. Its own users don't know how it functions.
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46 minutes ago, Cordial said:
What's funny is how I have no idea where you got that screen grab of that Ascended Lore, because it wasn't from the most recent guide or rewrite. Regardless, It takes months of RP teaching to get to a level high enough to even heal complex wounds, which at that level, you could be able to regenerate after an appropiate amount of time had passed.
screnshot was taken from the PowerPoint linked in this thread, the most recent update. MFW Ascended doesn't even know how his own lore is written. There is nothing in this lore that applies tiers to soul mending or tiers to regeneration. If it's not in the lore, you can't expect people to RP it, hence the need for a rewrite. It's elementary really.
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16 minutes ago, Cordial said:
An Ascended doesn't regenerate large scale wounds within a few OOC minutes. That's not how I RP the magic, and that's not how it should be RP'ed.
The lore states, as shown here,
IC days pass by in about half an hour to an hour of OOC time. This entire thread is made for discussing whether the lore should be rewritten/changed, and clearly it should be. Just because you might RP it "correctly" doesn't mean that others don't in their way because of how poorly the lore is written.
16 minutes ago, Cordial said:Ascended can take on fatal wounds, like decapitated arms, but doing that is a pk, as it is the Ascended that now has the fatal wound. They wouldn't regenerate themselves from bleeding out.
A decapitated hand/arm/limb isn't really fatal though, as long as the blood loss is stabilized. And again, the Ascended lore is so grey and uncertain regarding this matter, it doesn't matter how it's supposed to be Roleplayed, the lore still needs to be reworked to explain that.
7 minutes ago, Gladuos said:I don't believe there are any ways to regenerate entire missing organs or limbs without the use of resurrection from monks (not a player thing) or regeneration potions. I'm not an expert on Ascended, but I am a cleric. Clerics certainly cannot restore missing organs/limbs.
Fair enough regarding Clerics, Ascended can however.
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I would like to note, I'm not against Holy Healing being used to heal certain injuries. I'm against the way it is implemented. Here are multiple quotes of me saying as much across the thread.
8 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:I DON'T MIND MAGIC HEAL RP!
I'm not advocating for its removal necessarily. I and Flam, and everyone else who has agreed with us, is advocating for the fix of a shitty system.
12 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:TL;DR, healing roleplay at the moment is absolutely horrid and needs a serious revamp. I'm not opposed to it in its entirety, but it needs to be strictly monitored, have no combat applications, and just in general toned down from all angles.
10 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:I'd be willing to secede the point that certain kinds of Healing Roleplay could be utilized to heal things that couldn't otherwise, upon thinking about it I can see the different kinds of roleplay that can open up. The current system however needs to be reworked to better facilitate that however, as it's currently broken.
It was a long thread and I spent a lot of time defending limb removal and the idea that Magic shouldn't always bring back a limb, because it shouldn't. There should be risk involved and the process should be long and arduous.
4 hours ago, GildedDuke said:You’re taking this out of context and nitpicking. I clearly implied healing as the narrative of my response, something which you seem to have ignored. I also find it interesting you didn’t respond to my reference of Holy Healing users in Haense collaborating without issue of roleplay being killed. I also haven’t seen you produce any evidence to back your claims, whereas I have produced evidence to back mine.
I honestly didn't realize that's what you were talking about because your entire analogy was based off of what happened in Haense and didn't mention Magical Healing Roleplay. Clearly you haven't been to the Dominion then, or have seen extended character arcs where people completely barely spend any time on something as major as being blinded or having a limb removed. Those should be major moments of development for the character, and far to often they're glanced over. Your anecdote about one place having mundane healing roleplay while Holy Healing Magic existed on the server really doesn't serve as evidence for anything, and there have been many people on this thread and others that complain about its suppression of other types of Healing RP. You're just assuming that everyone who has posted for the revamp of Healing Magic RP and has cited mundane healing suppression as a reason is being dishonest/wrong about their experiences. Not the case. I'm sure in this one instance, there was great RP, doesn't change the fact that I've seen RP opportunities stifled in other places.
4 hours ago, GildedDuke said:Again, you’re exploiting context. I wasn’t talking about self regeneration in the particular quote you responded to. Rather, I was talking about healing magic being applied to someone else. Instead of actively responding to this, you scribbled over it and branded my response as something else entirely. I made an explaination into why Holy Healing isn’t God’s revelation and why it isn’t perfecto in every given situation. Learn how to debate.
Someone that managed to completely misunderstand the point I was making is telling me to learn how to debate. Right. I'll break it down then.
7 hours ago, GildedDuke said:mundane healing prior to any attempt at applying healing roleplay, due to the fact healing magic takes time to conjure and apply. Situations where this doesn’t happen is once again a result of poor roleplay and powergaming
You're saying that Healing Magic takes time to conjure and apply, therefore mundane healing will be resorted too as the first option right? Which is why I SAID,
7 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:An Ascended taking on the injury of someone else and regenerating it isn't powergaming though, it literally isn't. That's why we're advocating for changes. Neither are Clerics who channel whatever Angel they're associated with to speed up recovery to a ridiculous degree.
Fair enough, I could have articulates myself better, I thought you would have gotten what I meant from the overall things I was arguing for in the thread. Ascended Soul Meld bullshit doesn't really any time to conjure and apply. You sit there, do your emotes, maybe throw in a few beads of sweat and say it hurts, and then you're done. Actual healing roleplay requires the collection of herbs, getting someone who knows how to properly use the techniques, dealing with rehabilitation, having it affect you until you recover. Ascended soul mend to self regen takes away from every single one of those things. It literally is "God's relevation and perfect in every given situation." Do you understand now?
4 hours ago, GildedDuke said:Ah, but you were in fact the one who brought up this argument. As cited below:
12 hours ago, ChonGojDragonski said:TBH, everyone should PK on RP death but this is a different argument and people are way to attached to their mineman pixels to actually create quality dynamic roleplay, but at the very least roleplay out injuries properly.
Though I will give you the benefit of the doubt given as you did mention that this was a different argument.
Yes, I brought it up, and immediately proceeded to say it was a different argument and I shouldn't bring it up. Don't get me wrong, it was retarded to do on my part and I regret it now as it has taken away the focus from the actual arguments on the thread. W/e, we can discuss this later on a different thread.
4 hours ago, GildedDuke said:Oh, I did read the responses, and you once again appear to have little to no justification into why you think this way, nor evidence to back your claims other than some steep hatred for healing. Ascended don’t regenerate like Deadpool or Wolverine for God’s sake. I made a point on how regeneration is a common occurrence in many kinds of magic
But they do mate, this is taken from the Ascended lore for gods sake.
https://i.imgur.com/d2NXUwy.png https://i.imgur.com/iAQAXkQ.png
If that isn't Deadpool/Wolverine healing IDK what is. Look at all the posts I and people on the Ascended Magic thread made to explain WHY Soul Mending in conjunction with regeneration is so bad. The tow by themselves could have worked, together they don't. Just because you don't want to read the justifications doesn't mean they aren't there.
2 hours ago, zaezae said:Then, you know, actually propose actual changes instead of setting goal posts for everyone else and then whining when they don't meet the goal posts you meet while you endlessly declare axioms without any evidence just like every single person in this thread.
The thread was about whether or not Holy Healing is bad, it had nothing to do with making suggestions towards how to fix it. In my first post, every single one of my critiques were towards people defending Holy Healing and the way it is. It's not my fault people were unable to understand that. I didn't set the goal posts for everyone else, I responded to the OP's point of making the thread. When did I move the goal posts? Point it out. And OFC I'm going to declare axioms, every argument is based off of them. If you disagree with my argument, you argue the axioms. That's how debate works.
2 hours ago, zaezae said:If you actually don't believe that people absolutely will use permanent injury to ruin the fun of other players for the sake of ruining their fun then you haven't paid attention. I'm not going to conduct some kind of study to meet your impossible standards. Don't use hyperbole. No healing is "instant" and getting healed is not avoiding consequences. You think healing is too fast. Just say that and then tell us how fast you think healing magic should be since you supposedly have nothing wrong with healing magic on principle.
Maybe you RP with **** people mate, I've never had to deal with this and I've roleplayed with people that absolutely despise me. Until you cite examples of this happening to yourself or others, I'm not going to take your word for it. How is me wanting an example of people doing what you claim impossible standards? People on this thread have provided numerous examples of **** Holy Healing, it wasn't that impossible. And I'm not being hyperbolic. Two to three emotes of an Ascended soul mending someone's injury and saying it was difficult is akin to it being instant, and does avoid the actual consequences that come with a debilitating injury. Consequences such as rehabilitation, pain to your character, psychological trauma, etc. Yes I think healing is too fast, and in my original post arguing in the thread, I was referencing people that said Holy Healing is fine the way it is.
2 hours ago, zaezae said:So I'll set my goalpost for you then. What exactly, in full explanation, should be the limits of any healing method? I think limbs should be able to be regrown after an OOC month or so over many sessions like how I experienced. I've never ever seen anyone just Piccolo out an arm from holy magic. Because if you think that there should be no recourse rp at all on a high fantasy server then I would ask who is asking who to bend over backward to fit their desires.
Yes, setting your goalposts is the right word for it because this literally isn't the point of the thread we're on. I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to suggest what I think should be done in regards to healing magic, make the thread and I'll do it. Although TBH,
1 hour ago, zaezae said:What a complete load of perfectly reasonable ideas.
I agree with almost everything there except I think over time someone should regain complete control of a limb again. But certainly not a Piccolo levels of regeneration no.
I agree and would have pretty much said the exact same thing as Temp. It's not my fault that you or anyone else here misconstrued my ideas or intent for arguing.
2 hours ago, ThatGuy_777 said:Stop talking like you know how every RP instance will go down. What are you, a flippin' fortune teller? I take screenshots on the regular, to the point I have a good 7,000+ just sitting in my screenshot folder. You don't even necessarily need to take screenshots to ensure evidence, maybe just have somebody else there who can vouch too.
I'm sorry, but where in the quotes did I act as if I know where every RP instance will go down? Maybe I'm slow but I don't understand what you're referring too.
2 hours ago, ThatGuy_777 said:As I mentioned in my post, sometimes situations that end up making you horrifically maimed are unavoidable. Maybe you're saving your kid, perhaps you're just standing in the wrong place at the wrong time and you hear something you shouldn't have, or sometimes people just choose to target you for solely OOC reasons. "Yeah boss, let's got screw this guy up in particular." I'm getting tired of reading such accusatory replies from you dude when I've never even RP'ed with you, it comes off as pretty toxic
Look, if you're going to take me accusing your ideas of being bad as something personal on a debate thread, IDK what to tell you. I've debated with people before and been absolutely fine with them OOC and IRP. I've expressly avoided bringing in anyone's character into any of my arguments, can't say the same for some of the other people that have disagreed with me on this thread and how hostile people are getting. As for situations where you getting horifically maimed are unavoidable, what does that mean? Your character can choose what it does and what it doesn't. Yes, if you fight back against ten bandits, you will unavoidably be maimed. So don't do it? Losing a limb for saving your child sounds like some amazing RP and some quality character development, too bad we don't get that very uch do we.
1 hour ago, Time Lady of Kittens said:Alright since a lot of Chun's arguments is /for/ keeping injuries
Really isn't. Even if Holy Healing was outright removed, regular healing or forms of limb replacement is made so people don't keep injuries, and I haven't argued against them. Lots of stuff to read through so I can understand your misunderstanding.
1 hour ago, Time Lady of Kittens said:The issue is not "holy healing is PGing" the issue is we are listening to the player's request. If you want to have dismemberment of a player, ask them OOCly first if they would keep it. If they dont want to keep a certain injury, work with them. I play a torture fanatic, but I always ask my victims if they will keep the injury or some sort of scar as a reminder.
Holy magic fails. It is not perfect. We only heal what the players want us to heal OOCly.
I'd rather have someone not go along with an attempt to injure them so I know that this is a person solely interested on developing their story the way they want to so I can avoid them in the future, versus someone who just takes the injury and gets it fixed in the most low effort way possible. Holy Healing provides a medium for the second thing.
1 hour ago, Time Lady of Kittens said:If you think there is no drawback to healing, you are mistaken. Any well trained and well versed cleric roleplays drawbacks. I personally will put my cleric out of commision if its too hard. Others may get extremely fatigued or have to rely on more than one cleric to heal. If you see a cleric, any teir, Roleplay without any drawbacks for major wounds, then report them, simple as that. They are breaking lore.
Feeling tired after you regrow a limb isn't a drawback mate,and you avoided discussing Ascended who pretty much have no drawbacks. Name one drawback to the way Ascended heal, please do.
1 hour ago, Time Lady of Kittens said:Yes there are other ways to heal, and clerics are pushing towards avoiding insta heals nowadays.
Yes but the current Lore provides ways to do this, it really does. This is a thread that is advocating for a rewrite and fixing these systems, IDK what else I can say.
17 minutes ago, Gladuos said:I've had some time to sleep and recollect my thoughts, so here's a little more of my two cents. I'll admit that I was wrong about a few things in my initial comments throughout this thread. Also, I apologize for any aggressiveness towards people, including chon, regarding this. I was feeling very frustrated about what I felt was an injustice towards the RP I and many others regularly do.
Fair enough, no offense taken. I can come off as condescending IRL as well as over text, didn't mean anything by it. I appreciate this paragraph.
24 minutes ago, Gladuos said:Holy healing magic is incapable of regenerating lost limbs or organs, I'll note. I know many people have been bringing this up, so I'll clear it for you. If someone loses a foot, or a hand, a cleric won't be able to grow it back. They might be able to reattach it if they bring it soon enough, but that's about it. The only thing available to players which regenerates lost organs like that is the regen potion, an alchemical method. The truth is that mundane doctoring and alchemy are able to replicate everything clericism does with enough time and preparation, if not some what more due to the aforementioned potion. Sure, you might not be able to fix curses, but a potion could certainly be written up and submitted to address such. Like a "break curse" potion. I'd even be willing for such, I'm all for letting there be methods of healing certain things without the necessity of holies.
Perhaps you could explain something to me, as it's very plausible I misunderstood.
Couldn't an Ascended take an injury, such as losing a limb, onto themselves, therefore heal the person?
Just want this clarified, as I know it explicitly states in Cleric redlines that they can't regenerate limbs/extremities.
27 minutes ago, Gladuos said:This may seem unfair at a first glance, but let me explain my reasoning as to why I don't think it is. Anyone is able to make a "master alchemist/doctor" at any time. You can have one made in less than a day. As for mastering clericism? Six IRL months filled with progressing RP to acquire such. I believe that due to the large OOC barrier between being a regular character and learning the fullest extents of a holy healing magic is justification for letting it be some what better than mundane doctoring. People waste months and months of time RPing this, learning about how to cast the magic, using up one of their magic slots, often times researching anatomy. I feel like there's no reason their RP should be devalued by having their magic made worthless, all of those obstacles in the way only to be as useful as the alchemist someone made yesterday.
I personally have qualms in the way alchemy is utilized as well, though I think it's less prevalent of an issue. The way I see it, Holy Healing Magic should work really quickly for small injuries such as cuts, bruises, forms of fatigue, and other such things. And it should be a way to heal super diffiult things that couldn't be healed without the use of Magic. Medium things, such as broken bones, or muscle tears, etc, etc, should be tied between Holy Healing and Mundane Healing. This system would give Magic Healers some usefulness in an immediate sense regarding small and minor injuries, as well as vital in the long term sense for certain kinds of injuries. By making them equivalent to mundane healers when it comes to medium level injuries, you preserve mundane healing roleplay and prevent Holy Healing from being the save all be all to any kind of injury. It should be rare and awe inspiring when you see it, the current system doesn't fully provide for that. Just thought I'd state my opinion as to how it should be done to explain why I sort of disagree with you.
32 minutes ago, Gladuos said:Clerics and other holies are primarily about being dedicated to healing, and medicine RP. If they're not allowed to be exceptional for it because people are afraid of ignoring consequences, I don't know what to say.
I see no reason as to why Clerics and other holies can't also learn medicine Roleplay, and provide both kinds for victims and prospective learners aside. What if Clerics also made a guild where they teach the basics of human anatomy, how to properly stitch a cut up, set a broken nose or something in battle, stop blood loss, etc. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, and you can maintain their importance through the healing of injuries that are beyond the capability of simple mundane healing.
5 minutes ago, Cordial said:Holy healing, as laid out by lore, has consequences. The point at which it doesn't is a result of people roleplaying the magic improperly; It is not the fault of what's written in lore.
Can you or anyone for that matter explain the consequences of an Ascended soul mending an injury from someone and then proceeding to regenerate it within a few OOC minutes?
6 minutes ago, Cordial said:because only a handful of magic users improperly RP their magic
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2 minutes ago, GildedDuke said:
Your claim that Holy roleplay kills mudane healing is blatantly false. Allow me to produce citation:
In the Kingdom of Haense, we had an entire hospital with devoted mundane and alchemical roleplayers that would actively roleplay treating players who had been wounded. I myself witnessed roleplay such as people having their wounded seated close, stitching, disinfecting and essentially the furthest you could go before your roleplay was considered too gory.
I never said Holy roleplay kills mundane healing mate. It's Holy Healing Roleplay that does that.
3 minutes ago, GildedDuke said:Situations where this doesn’t happen is once again a result of poor roleplay and powergaming, which happens in every form of roleplay.
An Ascended taking on the injury of someone else and regenerating it isn't powergaming though, it literally isn't. That's why we're advocating for changes. Neither are Clerics who channel whatever Angel they're associated with to speed up recovery to a ridiculous degree.
18 minutes ago, GildedDuke said:Also another point. PK clauses are bad. The idea that a character must be forcefully injured, mutilated and perm-killed takes away freedom of roleplay and literally allows the concept of OOC targeting to take a foothold. We know OOC targeting exists, so would you really want someone’s day to be ruined because another got a thrill out of removing his eyes from their sockets out of no where?
We're not discussing this, though I 100% disagree. Irrelevant.
19 minutes ago, GildedDuke said:Ascended aren’t the only ones who get passive self-healing. Liches, darkstalkers, striga and shades also have the ability to heal and regenerate damage. As Ascended are meant to combat said creatures, it makes sense they would be granted similar gifts in order to effectively use their healing abilities and not be trumped by a dark creature that could reappear with their arm reattached within any given time.
The issue isn't necessarily with Ascended passive self-healing, the issue is how it functions with their heal Roleplay. We've covered why it's a problem so many times, please read through some of the responses and you'll see the very real complaints. Although Ascended self healing is still awful, that's another discussion.
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37 minutes ago, zaezae said:
Yeah, I see you committed whataboutery. You didn't address the fact that there absolutely are players who would love nothing more than to use permanent injury to screw with other players.
Mhm, right. Whataboutery. No one is obligated to believe you if you don't have any evidence for it, especially when it's a claim like this.
37 minutes ago, zaezae said:Oh, and you can't say earlier in the thread that using reports is ineffective because players won't use it when something affects them directly and then turn around and use the exact same argument that you criticized earlier.
That's not at all what I said buddy. I never said reports are ineffective, I said telling people to report issues such as someone not properly RPing how they heal themselves wouldn't be effective. It's undeniable that people don't report powergaming nearly as much as they should, doesn't mean that the reports are not effective. Take the ban report that I made for example. Everyone told me not to go through with it, that my actions would change nothing. Clearly that wasn't the case. Your point is invalid.
37 minutes ago, zaezae said:Someone getting healed doesn't take your fun away. At all. This is just stupid.
If I'm Roleplaying a conflict with someone, and I cut their sword arm off to settle the issue, and then they go get it healed in an instant by some Ascended or Cleric with no real problems as a result of what happened, and than proceed to RP with me, that definitely takes away my fun. There are a plethora of other cases I can bring up. Magic that is too powerful ruins any stakes that there might be, there is a reason why we temper it and keep it balanced.
37 minutes ago, zaezae said:What, if you cut me and I get a band-aid, does that ruin your fun? If you poison someone but they get an antidote, does that ruin your fun? No, it doesn't. If you cut someone's arm off and they go to a cleric and, over several sessions, get it healed like I did when my character lost a hand for an OOC month, that isn't dodging consequences. It isn't.
Implying that's what happens? Current healing is the exact opposite of that mate. I'll repeat it, I'm not against healing magic, I'm against the way that it is implemented.
37 minutes ago, zaezae said:Just because someone can rectify a problem doesn't mean the problem didn't happen.
Context is important. It's how the problem is rectified that matters.
37 minutes ago, zaezae said:Avoiding consequences is ignoring an injury, not getting it healed. You've engaged in this hyperbole throughout the entire thread that getting healed is exactly the same as not being injured in the first place.
Because when Clerics and Ascended can literally make your injury go away as if nothing happened with no real cost or RP to themselves, than yeah, it pretty much is the same as not being injured in the first place.
37 minutes ago, zaezae said:Your actual problem is that you think that the consequence isn't severe enough. That's fair, but saying that there is no consequence is just wrong on it's face.
Sure, all my points are still valid however. My bad, didn't mean to misuse the word/phrase, I think everyone got my general idea though.
37 minutes ago, zaezae said:As far as when you touch on my preference statements, this is why you shouldn't split someone's response because I explained why making an argument entirely based off of your personal preference isn't appropriate because LotC welcomes several different kinds of roleplay and players.
QuoteYou don't like ERP? You don't like overly gruesome RP? You don't like powergaming? Those are all prefrences regarding the /way/ that other people Roleplay. This isn't an argument.
Complete bullshit. This server has children that play on it. Powergaming is incorrect roleplay. Also there is established lore and vague theme just in case you try to pull those arguments to make a false equivalency.
Fair enough, I can admit that those were poor examples. I'll rephrase,
Just because some players prefer a specific kind of roleplay, doesn't mean that the rest of the server has to bend over backward to facilitate it.
Every argument in the end is going to come down to how people prefer things. The Lore Team doesn't allow certain creatures to be accepted because they don't think that the Roleplay it'll create will be to their preference. The Administration punishes certain people because they would prefer different actions from them. Everything comes down to a preference. Some people prefer not to ever kill their character under any circumstance and dislike any conflict roleplay outside of their slice of life. Is that a good preference? That's when you start getting into subjective territory which isn't something that can be debated. I and many others however, don't think that this kind of Roleplay is good for the server.
37 minutes ago, zaezae said:Also, no I'm not talking about you. I never said you. You made this about you. If you need proof then look at some of the responses in this very thread. "Durr, it's **** remove it".
Those responses are equivalent to people that blatantly overlook any complaints against their magic and refuse to branch out their Roleplay.
37 minutes ago, zaezae said:And why would I quote people I think are being dishonest? They're dishonest, there's nothing to gain from that. I'm projecting to anyone reading this thread about what I think might be going on with some people in this thread. I am not here to do call-outs and I'm not here to totally pwn doods.
This is a discussion thread regarding Holy Magic. If someone is making dishonest arguments one way or the other, it's the literal point of the thread to call someone out to expose this dishonesty. You could be 100% right about everything, we won't know if you don't elaborate and explain why you're right and others are wrong however.
37 minutes ago, zaezae said:There are people who will use anything they can to force people to roleplay the way they want. This should be pointed out to people. Just like people will argue for certain war rules to make rp more palatable for themselves rather than have opinions based on rather or not the war rules are fair to everyone.
Like advocates of holy roleplay and slice of lifer? This statement cuts both ways.
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16 minutes ago, zaezae said:
Oh no, it's very relevant. There are dishonest and mean-spirited players that absolutely will use any permanent injury to **** with players. It's not controversial and people have openly discussed how to ruin player bases. When talking about nerfing a magic into the dirt to allow for permanent injury, yeah it becomes very relevant. Also
There are dishonest and mean-spirited players that absolutely will avoid any roleplay consequences to **** with players. It's not controversial and people have openly discussed how they're not willing to do any Roleplay that they don't like. When talking about keeping a broken magic the same to allow for ignoring all roleplay consequences, yeah it becomes very relevant.
See what I did there? I'll repeat what I said, if someone is doing something without Roleplay reasoning behind it, report it and it'll be dealt with. If they have a valid Roleplay reason, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. Regardless of what you might think the person behind the character might be feeling.
16 minutes ago, zaezae said:is an argument that the magic allows for a mode of roleplay that someone doesn't want to see on the server. Not that the magic takes the fun away from other people unfairly but rather it allows people to simply engage in a certain kind of roleplay that they don't like.
Seeing someone use Holy Magic to circumvent the attempts my character did to deal with them does take away my fun though....Seeing someone ignore all consequences in an event that I am also involved in, and having that effect the overall story of the event does take away from my fun though...
16 minutes ago, zaezae said:Discussions like this almost all are based on an appeal to preference.
Why are you implying that this is wrong? Every single discussion ever is based on preference.
16 minutes ago, zaezae said:Preference in the /way/ that other people roleplay.
You don't like ERP? You don't like overly gruesome RP? You don't like powergaming? Those are all prefrences regarding the /way/ that other people Roleplay. This isn't an argument.
16 minutes ago, zaezae said:I am entirely convinced that some people approach the discussion dishonestly because they aren't interested in making magic in general better for all parties involved and instead want to shape all roleplay on the server be conducted to their liking.
What does this even mean? Who is approaching this discussion dishonestly? If you're referring to me, I'll ask you like I asked the other people who quoted me on the thread, where? I'm waiting to see it. Unless you can point to something specifically, you can't say that anyone is approaching something dishonestly.
16 minutes ago, zaezae said:. I don't like military RP. I don't like war RP. I don't like guard RP. I don't like raid RP. However, I will not ever advocate that these things be removed, that lore be adjusted so that I never have to witness someone else having this RP, or that rules be made in a way to prevent this RP.
Those are specific genre's of RP. Let me clarify.
I DON'T MIND MAGIC HEAL RP!
I'm not advocating for its removal necessarily. I and Flam, and everyone else who has agreed with us, is advocating for the fix of a shitty system. I've yet to see proper arguments for as to why the system isn't ****, when there have been plenty of arguments as to why it is.
16 minutes ago, zaezae said:This is not true, almost at all, when discussions shift to magic, family RP, fantasy, arguably elven, or anything on this side of the server. It's "I don't like this kind of roleplay and we should just straight up remove all of it."
If anyone in this thread has done that, quote them and take it up with them. Don't immediately dismiss all critiques of a magic because some people do this.
16 minutes ago, zaezae said:Also chopping up posts into bite size pieces isn't good form. It separates sentences which might make more sense in the greater context. Sometimes this is done out of dishonesty or just a choice of form.
If I or anyone does this out of context, call them out for it. Sure it CAN be taken out of context, I expressly avoided doing so.
16 minutes ago, zaezae said:But considering that you tried to make some petty "Ha, gotcha sucker!" moment because I didn't feel like scrolling up to use the quote button at the top fo the page, I have no idea about your particular intentions.
Sorry what? If you can't name something specific, don't accuse me of it to take away from any of the arguments I made.
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8 minutes ago, zaezae said:
-snip-
Nice post that has nothing to do with any of the points being discussed? If you want to rail against imaginary sleights or assign nefarious intent to people that really couldn't be arsed, that's all fine and good. Don't do it on a thread made for discussing whether or not Holy Healing Magic is bad or good. I'd be more than happy to address every single on of your points on a separate thread related to discussing this topic.
Edit: What's with wanting actual consequences to be roleplayed, and not wanting **** magic on the server, automatically being called "Grimdark". Flam, the head of the LT and the creator of this thread agrees with myself and the people you're associating with this "Grimdark" stereotype. I assume he and everyone else that agrees with us is some crazy fanatic that wants to ruin other peoples roleplay? Ight fam.
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Glad to see a response.
1 minute ago, Snelfma said:A better example would be third degree burns, which are exceptionally difficult to treat even in modern times due to trying to keep the patient stable in such a precarious state. Magic means that could be healed with significantly less risk of the patient dying from what would surely be a fatal injury on LoTC. We could also go with dangerously gangrenous wounds, magic could clear that up whereas natural means could only affect it if the reagents were enhanced by a druid.
I'd be willing to secede the point that certain kinds of Healing Roleplay could be utilized to heal things that couldn't otherwise, upon thinking about it I can see the different kinds of roleplay that can open up. The current system however needs to be reworked to better facilitate that however, as it's currently broken. Healing Roleplay that "speeds up" a problem that isn't minor, I.E cuts or bruises, is almost always inherently bad. It stifles roleplay and is often a cheap way to get away with IC consequences. By ritualizing the magic and making everything require heavy roleplay, we're only doing something good. This is a roleplay server, what's wrong with having to roleplay out several things before your character gets a hand reattached or his face undisfigured after being horribly burned.
3 minutes ago, Snelfma said:How is this a problem with lore?
Because if the lore was changed so that the Ascended in question couldn't automatically regenerate the wound, and instead had to RP out its consequences, we wouldn't have this problem.
4 minutes ago, Snelfma said:You do know what power gaming is right? It is an offense that can be reported. Seems like this is no more easily regulated than people magically getting swords or armor without receiving it irp.
But like I said before, power gaming is something that involves interact with two people and can be clearly defined and reported. And yet, we still have lots of powergaming and people can't be arsed to report it. How is something like "X meetings need to be met or you're not healed properly" supposed to be regulated? And what makes you think that anyone will report instances of it that don't effect them, when they don't bother reporting instances of powergaming done to them.
25 minutes ago, Snelfma said:Again? How is this a problem with how healing magic functions. This is just bad roleplay. Powergaming even.
It's a problem because a Magic system that can't deal with issues like this is flawed. It's also not really powergaming considering that unless the lore was specifically constructed to deal with this, it'd be legal.
6 minutes ago, Snelfma said:Given the amount of wood elven players who outright refuse to be healed by magic? Given how Xionist think the aenguls are just slavers? This idea seems like it would actually encourage more dynamic routes in roleplay.
Look, in a perfect RP world, I agree that your suggestion could work. However, we're on a server that's far from that, and all suggestions need to be judged with how likely they are to work versus the best case scenario. Implementing your suggestion would only effect the small amount of people that would bother RPing this out versus the vast majority that won't, which is why we need something more substantial.
8 minutes ago, Snelfma said:People are trigger happy to dismember because it is so hard to heal, not because it is so easy to heal. Most guards use this for serious offenders since it does require a lot of work to replace or heal.
The question is whether or not someone was justified in dismembering someone. If someone is justified, than we don't need to do anything about it, if someone is unjustified, we need to understand why. I think the amount of people that are "gore happy" is wildly inflated, and the few that perhaps are gore happy are usually horrid RPers that I and most everyone else who agrees with me would say they need to be punished.
27 minutes ago, Snelfma said:That is kinda the point. All the consequences fall on the caster, not the patient
Except there are no consequences for Ascended because they can just regenerate wounds that would take months to heal in hours. That's a direct quote from Ascended Lore, can pull up a screenshot if you don't believe me. I think the idea of taking wounds onto yourself is a good one, and it's immediately invalidated with the regeneration.
31 minutes ago, Snelfma said:I'm not actually sure how you were trying to refute this point.
I'm refuting his implication that arguments against healing magic are invalid because we can make the same arguments about X, Y, and Z. His analogy was wrong, by refuting it, I refuted his point.
32 minutes ago, Snelfma said:As for evocation just being a combat magic? Only for uncreative minds. A fire evocationist could use it to very precisely temper a blade, cook a meal, or just make pretty sparks that amuse children. I think that right there also proves that flames don't just bugger off to the void, but can have an impact on the material world.
I was being quick/general, the point wasn't specifically made to talk about the applications about Evocation but to point out the fallacies in his argument.
33 minutes ago, Snelfma said:1.) No magic can regenerate limbs, only alchemy can
Clerics can and have been regenerating hands, fingers, eyes, etc, for a while. Ascended can take on the lost limb and then regenerate it themselves.
34 minutes ago, Snelfma said:2.) People who want to do twisted **** irp are going to do twisted **** irp regardless of how healing works. We will just get a bunch of amputees and mutilated people.
Aside from the fact that if you're putting your character in that kind of a situation you should have to deal with the IC consequences, again, this whole idea that the server is filled with gore hungry fetishists who want to mutilate everyone they see is false and could be reported for poor villany RP so they could get blacklisted.
35 minutes ago, Snelfma said:3.) People who ignore consequences will ignore ultra-harsh consequences. They don't care.
I agree, why create a medium like Healing Magic to justify such horrible behavior though?
36 minutes ago, Snelfma said:4.) Who cares about getting rid of ulta-harsh consequences?... It may end up being **** rp, but it is still rp.
I'm sorry but I don't see how anyone that's actually concerned with improving the RP quality on the server can say that. If you're concerned, this statement is hypocritical, if you're not, than I don't think I'd be speaking out of turn that LotC isn't the server for you.
37 minutes ago, Snelfma said:The point Astartes was trying to make is that some people do play villainous character who will disfigure your char in horrible ways that dramatically affect your rp and some people do not enjoy having their rp mangled for the sake of someone else.
This same exact argument can be extended to people not wanting to ever, EVER, lose in RP because they don't want to give up their enjoyment for someone else. Clearly that's ridiculous, and so is Astartes argument.
38 minutes ago, Snelfma said:When someone has it out for you, it can often be a case of either don't log in or get fucked. Not everything is the victim's fault.
If someone is doing things OOC with no RP basis, report them. That's one of the easiest reports to make and I have confidence that the GM team will punish the person at hand. If another IC character has an IC problem with your character, it's called deal with it? This is RP, characters have conflict. Are you really advocating that IC characters shouldn't have vendettas against other IC characters for 100% legitimate reasons? If you kill my characters parents, naturally they're going have it out for you, what did you expect? It's your job to deal with it IC, that's how RP happens.
40 minutes ago, Snelfma said:As someone who rp's with clerics and various holy orders? I see this on a regular basis. With clerics, if they aren't revived in time by another cleric, it is a pk.
I haven't seen this specific point in Cleric lore, but even if you're right, Ascended or Druids have no such problems, and that needs to be addressed.
40 minutes ago, Snelfma said:There are consequences and then there is **** that just fucks up your roleplay. For the sake of argument, please assume we mean the **** that just totally fucks up someone's ability to roleplay.
I literally can't think of anything that would **** someone's roleplay? Lose a limb? Creates more RP. Lose two limbs? Creates more RP. Become a quadriplegic? Creates RP. Lose your eyes? Creates RP. Give me an example of someone losing the ability to RP short of torture porn which can easily be reported?
41 minutes ago, Snelfma said:Then there are the consequences that leaves your character a babbling mess, a blind,mute, and deaf mess with no hands, or leaves them so psychologically fucked (along with yourself) that you just don't want to rp the character.
Could you elaborate on these consequences? Your character being blind, mute, or deaf, is something that can be handled IC. Not having hands is something that can genuinely be solved IC. Having all of those things done to you is something that would qualify as super graphic or obscene RP and could be reported, and I don't think anyone is really that twisted to do these things. If they are, report them.
20 minutes ago, The Templar said:We are not here to be your personal torture dolls, just as you are not here to be our whipping post. As you have said, this is a cooperative RP environment. That means give and take on both sides.
Wait, what? I love how presenting reasonable arguments against Magic immediately turns me into some sort of pariah that gets off on torturing minemen pixels. I don't know who you think I am dude, but ask anyone that has EVER roleplayed with me, even people that don't like me. I'm the last person to do these kinds of things. This is just slander you're using to have to avoid addressing any of my very real points.
22 minutes ago, The Templar said:There are /pages/ now of you refusing any and all give, demanding only take in this discussion.
...
You're really going to imply that every disagreement should end with compromise? What if one side is completely wrong? Actually address my point correctly and believe me I'll give; you just haven't bothered to yet...
23 minutes ago, The Templar said:Some might have antagonists, some might not. What we all need to have a mutual respect for each-other's sensitivities and desires. A respect you have repeatedly refused to show. You twist the words of those who attempt to engage in amicable debate with you to support your own arguments.
This has been leveled against me by you and Gladuos. I've yet to see a quote where I've "twisted" anyone's words against them. Maybe we have different definitions of the word twist, IDK man. Point it out so we can see.
24 minutes ago, The Templar said:Your attitude is very much "My way or the highway" and that is just now how an environment like this functions.
It has nothing to do with "my way." This is a discussion thread, I'm voicing my opinion backed up with evidence. Did you not want me to do the point of the thread? I don't see how anyone could be so frustrated at someone disagreeing with them.
24 minutes ago, The Templar said:I have been on this server since 2013. You by your own admission have been here for two months. During the past five years since I joined, I have seen many things I didn't like nor agree with, yet I didn't begrudge them the RP they wanted. That's how this works. Brow-beating and insulting people only alienates them and makes them hate you for it.
I've actually been here since 2013 as well friend, I just came back two months ago. And I don't see how your experience automatically makes your argument more valid than mine? And I'd like to note, I haven't insulted a single person here...I've called ideas bad, but that is not the same as insulting someone? I disagree vehemently with some of my best friends IRL, and we've each called our ideas ****. Doesn't mean we've ever taken it personally. IDK man, this seems like more excuses to avoid actually addressing any of the points laid out.
26 minutes ago, The Templar said:This is how we get accusations of "toxicity" and "cancer." By being unwilling to meet in the middle and compromise.
Bro, it's a discussion. How am I going to meet you in the middle if you haven't bothered trying to answer any of my critiques....
27 minutes ago, The Templar said:Let's use torture for instance. You want to torture someone in a horrifyingly gruesome fashion. They don't want to RP it. You get a GM to help you find the middle-ground. Said middle-ground is a fade to black, or a straight execution depending on how severe your torture is.
Who here is advocating torture? Did you see the example emote I gave? If you read through my argument with an open mind instead of trying to look for something that automatically coincides with your beliefs, you might have.
27 minutes ago, The Templar said:Please do remember we all what we think is best, and we naturally disagree in some fashion or another as a result.
It's a discussion thread, we're here to critique what other people think. IDK what else I can say.
26 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:-You suggested pking to rp death, and all that bullshit that nobody follows. Even those who advocate for it.
So I just grouped you up with them.
Ight, just pointing out you were wrong. Honest mistake than.
26 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:-Not everyone wants to play a cripple. So if they lose a hand, if they're willing to compromise they'll rp it out in that scenario and get it healed after.
Not everyone wants to lose a fight. See how that doesn't work? Yeah.
26 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:So you can **** off with that whole argument that people should rp the consequences. People will rp what they enjoy because they're here to have fun. If you want to complain that that ruins your own rp, don't rp with those people.
Some people enjoy ERP, not losing fights, playing special snow flake creatures with magical powers, etc. If we don't accept those things on the basis that they enjoy them, your argument regarding accepting things based off of enjoyment doesn't work either.
27 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:But once again, everytime someone gets a hand chopped off its not a guard doing that to punish a thief. It's usually some bandit or spook or some other person who has gone out of their way just to inflict harm because they can.
Generalization and avoiding the point.
27 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:once again, just grouping you up with people based on what you said. Some people who have little investment in their personas go out of their way to cause harm to long-term personas for the fun of it in gruesome, disgusting manners that leave the character unplayable unless they die or a holy user steps in.
I've said it before, if someone is blending OOC with IC, report them. It's one of the easiest things to prove and will definitely be punished. If you kill the best friend of a persona and they get angry and try to kill/disfigure your character, I don't see how the amount of time the persona has been around has to do with anything? You're literally arguing that X character is better/more important/RP is more valid Y character because they've been around for longer.
29 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:gruesome, disgusting manners that leave the character unplayable unless they die or a holy user steps in.
People who do it for the pure enjoyment of it, seem to act in a way that fetishizes it.
It's more than just avoiding a punishment or whatever.
Dude, this is against the rules. Report it. You're straw manning me so hard. NO ONE IS ADVOCATING FOR TORTURE RP. IDK how I can make it any clearer.
30 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:-Im sorry, but people are once again going to rp their personas how they like. Rping a cripple isn't everyone's cup of tea.
Losing a fight isn't everyone's cup of tea...It's collaborative, that means if someone does something IC, and goes through the RP to do with it, you respect it. How would you feel if someone invalidated your RP because they couldn't be arsed to go along with it. That's what you're suggesting.
31 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:Developing a regulation has nothing to do with the magic and what it can do. It falls solely on the Lt to do their job and enforce it. It literally should not determine what the magic can do and what the effects of it should be.
-Once again, regulation does not matter for what the magic should be able to do.
Think about the logistics of what you're saying. GM/Admin team hasn't done a 100 things because it wouldn't work. You're literally saying that X should be done regardless of whether or not it'll work because it's the right thing to do based off of mineman lore.
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9 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:
The whole of your argument seems to be based on this idea that a loud vocal minority seem to have that we should be some hardcore rp server where your first rp death is an automatic PK.
Bruh...
You don't need to PK on RP death to accept consequences to IC actions. My argument is that Healing Magic is a cheap way to circumvent that, at least the way it has been implemented.
Your other points are invalid as they're based off this false axiom, but I'll answer a few anyway.
9 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:I saw earlier that you said "blah blah blah some people don't want to rp with people who don't PK and ignore injuries that ruin characters."
Nobody wants to rp with people like yourself who seem to fetishize torture and inflicting injury.
You've never roleplayed with me before mate. In my two months on the server, I've never maimed or even really gone out of my way to kill anyone? And this whole connotation people like to put on dismemberment, labeling it a fetish and torture.
We're RPing in a medieval time period. Cutting someones hand off for stealing is the literal norm both IRL and LotC, it's not a fetish. Chopping someones limb off while in a war/combat, and leaving them to rot isn't a fetish, it's just the logical thing to do...
9 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:But others don't and the only thing that makes it tolerable is the fact that you can get it reversed through monk resurrection or holy healing.
By removing holy healing, the only thing you're going to see rise is *bleeds out* "monks brought me back to life, that rp was a waste of time as it has no effect on my persona."
Something like this can be easily reported as dodging Roleplay, especially if someone attempts to staunch the bleeding because they're dismembering them as a punishment to a crime versus for the giggles. The situation we have atm cannot be monitored.
9 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:And your whole argument of "there's no way to regulate it" doesn't fall on the magic itself. It falls on the Lt team who's job it is to regulate and enforce rules.
I'm sorry, do you realize what you just said? My argument falls on the logistics. Explain how something like this is supposed to be regulated in a way that would actually work? I'm waiting to hear it.
9 minutes ago, | ZipZapMan | said:And besides, perhaps if it was amended to be that it would take sessions, the community through teachers with TAs could self regulate along with normal players reporting abuse.
Normal players can't be arsed to report powergaming and metagaming that DIRECTLY affects them. They're supposed to go out of their way to report something that doesn't? Alright, sure.
1 minute ago, Gladuos said:Or rather you fall back on your classic 180 maneuver and change what you meant so it better suits your argument. You seem to have misunderstood what I said too.
K.
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Just now, Gladuos said:
I think whether or not holy healing magic is fine in a fantasy server is a little different from racism or sexism, guy. You're fighting the straw man. It's subjective, there's no proving sh*t and it's more subtle than what you think it is. In my opinion, holy magic healing is fine. You're picking the extreme on the other spectrum.
You missed the point completely. You claimed that opinions are subjective, therefore no meaningful discussion can be had regarding them. I just demonstrated two examples of opinions people have where there is meaningful discussion every day. It's not a straw man, you just didn't understand the analogy. You said Holy Magic is fine for X, Y, and Z. I explained why X, Y, and Z is wrong. If you disagree, answer my explanations. If not, this is pointless and we're further cluttering a thread that was meant for discussion.
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1 minute ago, Gladuos said:
I actually don't know where to start, everything you say is basically the exact opposite of what I believe is the right thing to do. And it comes down to subjective opinions on what is good and what is bad, I didn't say anything you advocate for is evil, just terrible imo. Every single time. I don't know how it gets in your head, it's so foreign to me. The point is I don't want to discuss it with you because you're the type of person who will go on for hours and hours because you're so set in your ways. It actually does piss me off, yeah. You're acting very smug.
I actually took the time to respond to each and every one of your points, giving you and them the respect that they deserved. You blew mines off. I'm acting smug? Alright mate, let me apologize if that's the impression you got. But regardless of whether or not my tone conveyed smugness, your actions convey it, and that's far worse.
And subjective opinions can be based on merit and fact. Someone can have a racist or sexist opinion, doesn't mean it's a valid one?
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6 minutes ago, Snelfma said:
I did read and most of your points were about how the patient could perform poor roleplay by logging out or ignoring any consequences. I saw nothing about how the magic ITSELF could be abused
EXCEPT THE SYSTEM ALLOWS FOR THIS! Someone logging out for 30 minutes and acting as if they were never injured is 100% within the rules. Clearly you didn't read all of it. I can quote where I said this explicitly if you want. The Ascended system is utterly broken, and healing roleplay is exactly the same.
5 minutes ago, Gladuos said:And that's a good way to ignore my extremely valid points as well, sir. I'm telling you that you're full of sh*t, and everything you're trying to say to "disprove" mine seems like delusion. You're an advocate for the devil, is there ever any instance where you don't pick the awful side?
Seem mad there bud. I'd like you to quote a single point that you made which I didn't address. If the way I addressed them was wrong, you're supposed to quote it and explain WHY it was wrong. I don't think you understand how a discussion works friend. Appreciate you associating myself and the things I advocate for as evil by the way. Very logical, quality discussion right there. If what I'm saying is delusional, point it out. Please, I'll be the first to say I'm wrong if you can.Quote selection
Just now, The Templar said:Your entire argument stems from this singular power fantasy. "I think people should PK on rp death as a consequence, so all consequences should be permanent." So long as that's how you see, there's no further point discussing this.
I'm so stupid. By saying this one thing I gave you free license to completely ignore every valid point I made. All of my points are still valid even if you don't believe in PK on RP death as RP should still have consequences. Very convenient.
1 minute ago, The Templar said:You will not change your mind, nor will you convince anyone else that your extreme response is the right way. You even threw in an honestly dated jab at "pixels" as a reason to not PK, instead of people possibly having complex stories they enjoy RPing rather than hardcore politics to see who sits on what chair.
Complex stories involve risk, death, give and take? Name a single complex and widely heralded story where there isn't risk involved...You literally can't. And again, I'm more than willing to change my mind. Assuming I'm not is lazy and not fair to me as a person.
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4 minutes ago, Elrith said:
This is a pretty trash thread ngl. Ascended Magic is fine, the player base itself is up for debate, I'm not going to comment on what I don't know. It's just that this thread is commenting more on the actions of players than actually discussing the magic, y'know, the reason why the thread was made? I wouldn't take anything said in this thread worth a grain of salt.
Mate...Did you really just ignore the multitude of points that were leveled towards the Ascended Magic as a system overall? I can link you to my post if you perhaps missed it.
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11 minutes ago, Farryn said:
Jallen is referring to the rewrite that we currently have on standby because of an upcoming announcement by the LT that corrolates to do with Holy Magic. All the errors that the LT gave to us have been fixed within said rewrite and we're currently waiting for the announcement before we continue working on the rewrite. Since we don't know what said announcement is, it's better we wait to see what the announcement will affect for the Ascended before we continue with the rewrite, else we'll likely write something that could go against said announcement and cause us to overhaul an idea we have already fleshed out. The current Ascended magic, the active one as of now, does have flaws but the one in the rewrite has been fixed. We're just waiting on this announcement from the LT.
Until this rewrite is publicized, it's not fair to make statements regarding Ascended based off it. I'm discussing the here and now. If this rewrite fixes everything about the Ascended, than I'll be the first person arguing for it. Doubt it'll happen though. People arguing for Frost Witches made the same arguments you guys did,
I.E, rewrite will fix everything bro, just wait.
We all know how that went...
11 minutes ago, Farryn said:I meant the hours in OOC time. I apologise for not elaborating if its IC or not, but a majority of the Ascended leave their wounds to regenerate for an OOC hour or two. Jallentime went as far as to have his character's eye slowly regenerate over a 2-4 OOC Day period.
That's the thing though, this is completely optional. As I said before, someone can log off for half an hour and come back as if nothing happened, they'd be in the right. Perhaps this is addressed in the rewrite, it's still awful atm though.
11 minutes ago, Farryn said:Furthermore, don't forget there will be moments where an Ascended is wounded and leaves an area, and will not receive any roleplay. How do you expect an Ascended player to roleplay out their wounds healing when no one is present? An Ascended will leave the server to focus on other things and by then, yes their wounds will heal and time would have passed if you put into consideration how time works on the server.
That's the thing, if someone has to deal with a limb being cut off, or being crippled for around an IC year, that's something that will be roleplayed for an extended period of time, even as OOC time passes.
11 minutes ago, Farryn said:However, should an Ascended be instant-regenerating and it's clearly unfair, do report it to a staff member or another Ascended player so that we can at least talk to the person and get them to quit the instant-regeneration.
I qualify 5-30 minutes of OOC afk/logging off as instant regeneration, the thing is, they'd be roleplaying 100% within the rules. Again, perhaps this is addressed in the rewrite. Until the rewrite is made public, it's a bad system.
Appreciate your response by the way.
7 minutes ago, Snelfma said:@ChonGojDragonski, I'm not going to quote all your responses, but it looks like over half of them had to deal with poor rp'ers doing poor rp rather than an inherent flaw in the magic.
Don't appreciate this one. You should have not posted at all if you're not going to debate on a debate thread. I don't know how I'm supposed to respond to someone basically saying they can't be arsed to have open discourse with me because it doesn't suit them. And clearly you didn't read my point and how the system is FUNDEMENTALLY flawed. Actually read through it and answer my points.
1 minute ago, Gladuos said:@ChonGojDragonski I'm not gonna make a huge analytical response to everything you've said and turn it against you in the same petty manner as you have, but you seem a pretty big advocate against holy healing. That's fine, you're allowed to not use it. Don't force other people to suffer your """""""""""""quality""""""""""""" roleplay though, it won't be fun for anyone but you. I'm sure that's what you're after though.
Nice way to save face and not answer any of my extremely valid points. If pointing out the flaws in your logic/argument is turning it against you, than IDK what to say. And clearly many people agree with me. It's a discussion thread, if you're not going to discuss, IDK what this comment adds.
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[✗] [Amendment] Major Healing
in Denied Lore
Posted
This argument can literally be extended to every single amendment or suggestion on the server that relates to Roleplay. It's ridiculous and doesn't add anything. Deus Ex Monkina is bad, and almost everyone that Roleplays seriously outside of their clique realizes the implications seeing someone you decapitated yesterday walking around the city streets, and how it's poor quality Roleplay. The amendment will go a long way towards dealing with the Monk bs, and will put it all in one place so the upcoming Holy rework can iron things out.