[✗] [Rewrite] Ologs - Krug's Indomitable

[Jaslaw 602]

9 minutes ago, BakedPotato said:

When raging they cant cast any magic btw

Valid, but it does not change that they will be now permited to use more complex weaponry and still remain way stronger than any normal person. While also having more durability, and same speed/endurance as all other races

It really just stops looking fun and more like ''Op for the sake of op'' while removing the one thing that makes Ologs what they are right now. Ngl it would far more feel like just removing Ologs and buffing orcs as a whole in my eyes

[ClassyDryad 2367]

37 minutes ago, Panashea said:

 

 

An uruk with heavy armor /w boomsteel and a bow or a warhammer has the same combat efficacy as an Olog in this current write.  Nothing stops ologs from using warhammers, long bows, or medium armor/heavy armor in the current write. Bolstered strength on its own is still stronger than what's provided here.

 

This is not really a good comparison at all. Possession of a rare metal weapon isn't equivalent to an open easily accessible transformative CA, and leaves our the downsides of boomsteel (using it four times takes you out of combat effectively) nor does it address that not having to use the boomsteel to double your attack strength then opens you up to use said attack strength with other materials- effectively layering it's strengths into the weapon without it's downside. This is to say that this CA is decidedly not equivalent to a uruk with heavy armor and boomsteel.

 

This is all dancing around my point that this lore decidedly doesn't at all feel like an improvement upon ologs, it feels like an improvement upon uruks. The only purpose of having the ability to turn existing uruks into ologs seems to be to fulfill this. I personally think that if accepted this CA would be exceedingly detrimental to the orcish community in the long run.

 

As an additional note, rage pking you if overused while also giving additional uses is a real bad mechanic. Beyond just the low quality rp generated by a mechanic revolving around killing people mid combat, is it metagaming for an olog not to pk themselves if they think they killed someone who is pretending to be dead? Does killing things that aren't actually alive count? Does killing a naztherak's summoned imp count?

[BakedPotato 1018]

7 minutes ago, Jaslaw said:

While also having more durability, and same speed/endurance as all other races

has no affect when wearing additional armor. that durability is worse than knight in armor, mundane knight meta is still on top. Olog strength as it is is already tanked and shrugged off, I have no doubt it will be the same after this write. Strength buff might be strong in theorycraft, less so in a real crp

[Jaslaw 602]

4 minutes ago, BakedPotato said:

It gives a list of what they can learn starting with shamanism 

Alright found it, 

Ologs can learn Shamanism, Seer, Blood Magic, Corcitura, Alchemy Feats,  Housemagery, Bardmancy, Golemancy, Sorvian Crafting, Kani  & Feats; any other that doesn't alter the soul or corrupt it while preserving their Olog traits.

Well that is still a lot of stuff, Blood magic, Seer, and Kani are all combative and can be very good while not decreasing any strength of the Olog. Even if they can't cast while raging it does not mean that they can't start casting after their rages run out, or after they cast something like ''eye-bite'' to blind the oponent and than jump the heck out of them using the 1 emote of horse movement that rage gives on top of the 2x strength of any given person

And it really diminishes their charm as ''blind followers'' and instead lets them lead entire magic groups based on the stuff mentioned even further taking away the cost that the initial write has for actually being an Olog.

So again- I am still not a fan of all this. Just because you can't use an op ability while also casting magic doesn't make it any less op, nor does them having full descenant ability while just being outright stronger juzt cuz why not seem all that fair to me.

 

2 minutes ago, BakedPotato said:

has no affect when wearing additional armor. that durability is worse than knight in armor, mundane knight meta is still on top. Olog strength as it is is already tanked and shrugged off, I have no doubt it will be the same after this write. Strength buff might be strong in theorycraft, less so in a real crp

Oh no I mean they are 10 feet tall tanks made of fat and muscle. To take that down you need a lot more and people WILL abuse that, this is why I mentioned their sheer size being a boon in of itself, and it doesn't stop them from just putting on full plate. It simply means that when cought off guard they are not going to get absolutely bodied like everyone else would - BESIDES. Do not underestimate the mobility of natural armor with no restrictions, it is still insane in of itself.

And people can powergame even against the current x3 strength, but it doesn't mean that being twice as strong as another person is any less powerful. You still have a massive advantage for absolutely no reason, and at no cost to yourself

Its just a lot of stuff that I see getting abused in the futture should this pass, nor does it really follow what Ologs are right now. It just takes them, mushes extra abilities together and turns them into normal orcs but +

[Metamancy 1759]

i do think ologs need a rewrite, but. isn't it unfair to make an open CA that has strength as strong as ologs but getting rid of their stupidity? I feel like... all uruk players would just play ologs at that point. 

I also didn't properly read it, so if you could point out the key differences between ologs in this write and uruks (excluding the buffs), that would be helpful

[PolarLoLs 983]

Anything but the shamanism rewrite

[BakedPotato 1018]

14 minutes ago, Jaslaw said:

Its just a lot of stuff that I see getting abused in the futture should this pass, nor does it really follow what Ologs are right now. It just takes them, mushes extra abilities together and turns them into normal orcs but +

Ologs weren’t always what they were now, and shouldn’t be unthinking rocks. Ologs are orcs+ they are the same race not some distinct monster. Anything can be abused, olog strength now can be abused, this write serves to make ologs more enjoyable. I think people need to reread everything pana wrote, ologs in this write are more different to uruks than goblins are to uruks. All three are the same race

[Jaslaw 602]

1 minute ago, Metamancy said:

i do think ologs need a rewrite, but. isn't it unfair to make an open CA that has strength as strong as ologs but getting rid of their stupidity? I feel like... all uruk players would just play ologs at that point. 

I also didn't properly read it, so if you could point out the key differences between ologs in this write and uruks (excluding the buffs), that would be helpful

They get strength nerfed a bit, extra abilities, and lose any real ''downside'' that comes with playing an Olog

Lowkey just Orc+ bro and it ain't even funny 🙏

Just now, BakedPotato said:

Ologs weren’t always what they were now, and shouldn’t be unthinking rocks. Ologs are orcs+ they are the same race not some distinct monster. Anything can be abused, olog strength now can be abused, this write serves to make ologs more enjoyable. I think people need to reread everything pana wrote, ologs in this write are more different than uruks than way goblins are different than uruks. All three are the same race

Ah yes! Lets compare Goblins, Humanoid greenskins that can be as tall as a human to orcs! Race that is already stronger than the baseline!

Now kids, what happens when we give the improvement on the baseline crack? Lets find out and hopefully nothing will be broken in that! :D

Yea no, that just sounds ridicolous. Just because goblins exist and are weaker than orcs does not mean that orcs need to have a + tier that is just a better stronger version of themselves, RIGHT NOW ologs are far more of their own thing. Any of their physical might comes at a steep cost in their mentality, they can not do many things normal orcs would do

And if you can't play an idiot persona right and actually have fun with it, than just DON'T play an Olog. Thats the thing, it is its own Niche that can be very interesting and fun to play around with! You will be manipulated and used instead of being an intrigue mastermind, you will not achive great magical breakthroughs nor will you be a great military comander. But you will still be around for it all, you can still enjoy going around and being the ''muscle'' when necessary- That is what Ologs should remain as in my eyes... Not just orcs that are buffed out for no reason. Not Orc+. They should remain Ologs, their own thing.

Do not use them to buff orcs by proxy.

[BakedPotato 1018]

18 minutes ago, Jaslaw said:

Ah yes! Lets compare Goblins, Humanoid greenskins that can be as tall as a human to orcs! Race that is already stronger than the baseline!

Now kids, what happens when we give the improvement on the baseline crack? Lets find out and hopefully nothing will be broken in that! :D

getting a lot of calm and level-headed energy from the ! usage

 

ologs still have a different mentality, and this pushes back on the flanderization that has happened with ologs. No one is stopping anyone from playing a braindead persona, ive enjoyed playing a dumb character before, but orcs are already a small niche and shouldnt have to suffer because you feel ologs should be roleplayed a type of way, of the few people who want to play orcs there will be even fewer wanting to play ologs and they should have some freedom in their roleplay if they so please. Being an olog is still limiting and can be just as dynamic. If you cant play an olog if this write passes and have fun with it, dont play one

[Helmet 1454]

Gotta say, I'm a fan of the write. I like the re-contextualization and actual intrigue this gives ologs.

My only criticism comes in the form of the Rage ability, and the sudden brain-blast ologs would get- though i absolutely love the "get a kill to extend your Rage" trait.

 

Making Ologs 'dumber' mechanically as opposed to thematically may be the way to go. I'm sorry, I don't see an olog actually bothering to use alchemy/golemancy, let alone the further alchemy(s) such as tawkin or animatii. MAYBE smoggers gets a pass?

I think making them take twice as long to learn knowledge-based FAs would be best, with further alchemy(s) being wholly inaccessible- or/and making them incapable of making CAs based off of those feats with the exception of sorvians as making little clay sculptures supported by wood and blood is absolutely something someone with massive hands could enjoy.

 

Edit: Just an afterthought for the magics. maybe a limit for what tiers of magic an olog can use, similar to scionism, could be applied instead of sacrificing the olog's rage if they decide to pick one up. not because they are actually stupid, but because their minds are too volatile/filled with internal turmoil to reach those upper-limits of what a descendant's mind could do? again, 'mechanically' stupider, not literally.

 

Suggestions for Rage are within the Spoiler, along with the quoted ability itself for ease of access.

Spoiler

4 hours ago, Panashea said:

 

Rage - [Active]

Rage unshackles their normal restraints, Olog tapping into a deeper magical strength. Rage can be activated [2] times per combat encounter, and lasts for [4] emotes each time. Activating Rage a [3]rd time would cause cardiac arrest, PKing the Olog at the end of the encounter. Should an Olog kill a target while Rage is active, they may cast Rage an additional time without penalty.  Rage is hindered by armor and weapons, lacking the same efficacy when utilized. Rage requires [1] emote of focus to incite, inducing the state of being and disconnecting them from all other magics.  Rage grants the following abilities. 

 

»  An Olog’s weapon-ed attacks strike with the force of [2] average descendants.   

» Unarmored Ologs gain [3] additional blocks of movement. Armor immediately disables this effect. This may be represented as a charge or sudden movement and may only happen [1] time per Rage activation.  

» Ologs without a weapon strike with the force of an Uruk’s warhammer, capable of breaking stone and buckling heavy armor with fists, teeth or other combative parts of their body.  Attacks made with weapons defer to the lore above. 

» Similarly, Ologs may throw any projectile and have it function the same as if it was shot from a  Long Bow in accordance with Techlock.  An olog still must take [3] emotes to ready, aim and fire the projectile. 

 

Direct strikes on an Olog's flesh with Azhl reduces an Olog’s Rage by [1] turn and a second strike would totally prevent them from utilizing Rage in addition to its usual effects. Similarly, Volatite’s Thunderclap and loud sounds that would disrupt magical connection would prematurely end Rage. 

 

Rage Rᴇᴅʟɪɴᴇꜱ: 

⬢ Rage cannot be used in conjunction with any other kinds of magic that would require connection, focus, or rhythmic breathing.  

⬢ The satisfaction gained from an earned victory, one in which the Olog themselves snuffs the life out and sates their Bloodlust allows them to cast Rage [1] additional time within a combat encounter without penalty.  This effect may only trigger [1] time per combat encounter.

⬢ The state of Rage cannot be held in concurrence to magical connections and disconnects the Olog from magic until Rage ends. 

⬢ Rage cannot be prematurely ended by the Olog, and instead only disconnected through loud sounds that would disrupt magical connection. 

⬢ A fatal casting of Rage will still kill the Olog at the end of the encounter, even if they kill someone and proc an additional use.

 

1. An olog's rage, i feel should make them more brutish as opposed to magically "locking in" as it currently describes. at the very least their weight should make them move with heft/lack dexterity when thrown around with so much force, or maybe implement a trait that can mechanically cause/force friendly-fire like templar's old berserk damage system. There's also nothing written that would prevent an olog from moving AWAY from a target or using rage as a simple speed boost to another location, which I think goes against the thematics of RAGE. big guy angry, big guy smash small guy. not big guy angry, big guy run away.

2. throwing projectiles should probably just be a separate ability, giving javelins the effects of a longbow/crank crossbow or throwing stones into charged slings with similar emote times. could be combined with being unable to use bows/crossbows for reasons that consist of either krug's pride kicking in, or just having sausage-fingers. big guy throw big rock, big hurt.

3. would OTHER kinds of very loud sounds knock Ologs out of their rage such as hound's howl potion? or the supernatural wail of a wight (i don't know mystic lore this could be a wrong example)? This is less so a suggestion and moreso a question. imo a general weakness to very loud noises may be good to see, though don't think this would be needed. you might even be able to lengthen the duration of this ability because of it, if counters/interruptions are more common- that added duration giving Rage far more emphasis in an olog's tool belt even if they have feats/magics to lean on.

 

all and all, +1 my dude. hope this goes somewhere.

Edited May 12 by Helmet

[Jaslaw 602]

Just now, BakedPotato said:

getting a lot of calm and level-headed energy from the ! usage

 

ologs still have a different mentality, and this pushes back on the flanderization that has happened with ologs. No one is stopping anyone from playing a braindead persona, ive enjoyed playing a dumb character before, but orcs are already a small niche and shouldnt have to suffer because you feel ologs should be roleplayed a time of way, of the few people who want to play orcs there will be even fewer wanting to play ologs and they should have some freedom in their roleplay if they so please. Being an olog is still limiting and can be just as dynamic. If you cant play an olog if this write passes and have fun with it, dont play one

And what is the so mighty difference in mentality? The fact that the rewrite is trying to push them into orc communities and keep them there, or just the fact they are arogant and prideful? Like c'mon that is not a lot and bloodlust is something that orcs as a whole always had and will always have so that isn't much special either.

And well, you can play braindead on any persona yes! But does that mean you can just take away the ONE bane keeping an otherwise OP CA back and than call it balanced? It is not about how I feel Ologs should be roleplayer, its more so that it is unecessary to buff an already stronger than normal race. The rewrite means you get to be OP just because- and still do EVERYTHING you would do on any other persona. At that point the question is, why wouldn't you play an Olog?

If you want to play this kind of CA? Just make an orc. It is still stronger than other races, but it has some balance to it. You still get to be a smart cookie and do everything every other descedant would do

So why make that but just WAY more OP in a manner that will be abused and powergamed? It just doesn't seem good to me

[BakedPotato 1018]

13 minutes ago, Jaslaw said:

If you want to play this kind of CA? Just make an orc. It is still stronger than other races, but it has some balance to it. You still get to be a smart cookie and do everything every other descedant would do

So why make that but just WAY more OP in a manner that will be abused and powergamed? It just doesn't seem good to me

I simply dont think its as op as you think it. Anyone can powergame even without CAs, MAs, and items. Subraces exist so everyones not forced into playing the same character, thats why there are 4 different human subraces, a billion different elves, multiple different dwarves. Orcs deserve some variety too, olog is an orc subrace which i feel is being mitigated a lot. Its the same reason people choose to play goblins when they could play an uruk, because they want to. People who play uruks now play them because they want to. People who play ologs play them because they want to. If you play an olog for the mentality nothing stops you from keeping your olog dumb, this just opens doors but still less doors than uruks. If you want to play an olog to be taller than an uruk then ok, a subrace’s purpose is to provide variety. This aims to help balance olog’s currently op strength. Helmet offered good feedback, a lot of your earlier complaints were solved by reading, if you have actual criticism beyond they’re op then please add but I’ve already engaged with you beyond what I should.

[Helmet 1454]

stop fighting :(

[Panashea 3323]

 

 

1 hour ago, ClassyDryad said:

This is not really a good comparison at all. Possession of a rare metal weapon isn't equivalent to an open easily accessible transformative CA, and leaves our the downsides of boomsteel (using it four times takes you out of combat effectively) nor does it address that not having to use the boomsteel to double your attack strength then opens you up to use said attack strength with other materials- effectively layering it's strengths into the weapon without it's downside. This is to say that this CA is decidedly not equivalent to a uruk with heavy armor and boomsteel.

 

This is all dancing around my point that this lore decidedly doesn't at all feel like an improvement upon ologs, it feels like an improvement upon uruks. The only purpose of having the ability to turn existing uruks into ologs seems to be to fulfill this. I personally think that if accepted this CA would be exceedingly detrimental to the orcish community in the long run. 

 

As an additional note, rage pking you if overused while also giving additional uses is a real bad mechanic. Beyond just the low quality rp generated by a mechanic revolving around killing people mid combat, is it metagaming for an olog not to pk themselves if they think they killed someone who is pretending to be dead? Does killing things that aren't actually alive count? Does killing a naztherak's summoned imp count?

 

Ologs in this write only have 2x descendant strength via Rage, an ability they can only activate [2] times in a combat encounter within this write, otherwise they are just normal orcs strength wise.  Currently they are at [3x] constantly. It wouldn't be necessary to immediately jump ship because there are tons of other lore pieces that orcs currently utilize to fufil the same niche or strength requirements, (Tawkin, Golemancy, Templar, Azdrazi, Mysticism, etc), many of which are either incompatible with Ologs or can't be stacked together.  Boomsteel by your words can be activated more times in addition to its other powers and thunderclap effects.  Olog strength is seen over a ton of other [CAs] as I listed before with Primnya's response, in addition to them being able to use magics and possessing other mechanical boons. Giving other Ologs the same fairness is rational when Ologs are being used as the primary point of strength for other creatures. 

 

Templar and other magics have similar clauses with "Last stand" type abilities, as well as Thaumburn being a general mechanic /w spell overuse. 

⬢ A fatal casting of Rage will still kill the Olog at the end of the encounter, even if they kill someone and proc an additional use.

If you cast it beyond your maximum, even if you kill someone you just die. You can't use it to undo the PK. Death is pretty clear for creatures I can amend to clarify that they are playable characters.

 

1 hour ago, Helmet said:

Making Ologs 'dumber' mechanically as opposed to thematically may be the way to go. I'm sorry, I don't see an olog actually bothering to use alchemy/golemancy, let alone the further alchemy(s) such as tawkin or animatii. MAYBE smoggers gets a pass?

 

I think this is more of a personal/cultural thing. I don't think intelligence needs to be systemized just to make things take longer. Waiting doesn't make the roleplay fun if there isn't really a reason to wait around. Additionally penalizing ologs when other creatures have access to Olog strength, magic, alchemy, and golemancy and so on just seems excessive. 

 

1. ologs have to be unarmored for the movement boost. sometime big guy need to run away
2. I don't think there necessarily needs to be a *** for tat,  anyone can used ranged weapons, this just gives an added benefit for ologs to be unarmed/unarmored while raging. 
3. it explicitly says sounds that break connection, so both of those examples work.

 

2 hours ago, PolarLoLs said:

Anything but the shamanism rewrite

They're not yet reviewing the base Shamanism changes yet and some of the more complicated stuff needs proof-reading. I can multi-task.

 

[Beardicuss 486]

Well if anything thanks for the forum drama to read