Creation Or Evolution? Vote!

[Rhonir 16]

I do agree people calling themselves Christians have done terrible things. And this does render hammer's argument invalid.

However, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This does not support evolution or creationism. It only supports that humans suck. A lot. Which, I'm sure, everyone here understands.

Please, sir, understand that just because someone says they are doing something for God does not mean that they are actually a Christian. It has given our religion a bad name, and we understand that, but Biblically, their endevours were not supported. So, really, God did not sanction the death of millions of Native Americans, God did not support European colonialism in America, and God certainly did not sanction the evils the Europeans did. As soon as a "Christian" goes against one of the Ten Commandments, they aren't following God's word. The Spaniards and American colonials did just that.

 

I commend this. I was only pointing out the flaws in Hammer's argument. I understand that anyone can be a good person, regardless of their religion or philosophy. I was pointing out that Hammer said that people who, before the discovery of evolution, that were Christians were the 'morally right, perfect people'. He also claimed that Evolution 'allowed' people to do bad things. I was showing that Evolution had no difference in what people were doing, good or bad, and that he was being an extreme hypocrite. Christians are not inherently bad. It is only that people who seek justifications for their actions interpret Bible verses, (or Qu'ran, Torah, or any religious text for that matter) in a way that benefits them, and use that as justification.

Thanks for taking the time to respond,

ThePrroman.

[hammer01 29]

Prrroman, you misunderstood me. I wasnt saying that people were perfect before Evolution, but rather that they didnt have a valid excuse for what they did. Now they do... thats all I was saying.

 

 

And how do we know that those tools were not used by humans? We are just speculating here...

[Rhonir 16]

Prrroman, you misunderstood me. I wasnt saying that people were perfect before Evolution, but rather that they didnt have a valid excuse for what they did. Now they do... thats all I was saying.

 

 

And how do we know that those tools were not used by humans? We are just speculating here...

 

In their time period, religion was a perfectly valid excuse to kill others. It was regarded as law of the land. And Evolution is no valid excuse to kill others. Just because a few people take a misconception and preach that as evil does not make it a valid reason to kill others.  

 

And how do we know these tools were not used by humans? I'll explain. It is not speculation at all. It is proven fact.

 

Aside from the fact that these tools were found at Neanderthal campsites that were dated to predate any human settlement in the region, and they did not match wounds in dead Neanderthals (to show that they were not used by humans), Homo sapiens sapiens had a completely different style of tools than Neanderthals. The images I showed in my previous post were in specific, Neanderthal Spear heads. I will show another image below, (being a replica of the spear) 

This spear was long, heavy, and was distinctly large pointed. This made this spear cumbersome and impossible to throw. This made the Neanderthal Spears mostly used as stabbing weapons. Do not try to refute the fact that Neanderthals used tools. There is no evidence that shows they did not use stone axes, flint knives, and spears. I digress. Humans on the other hand, had the upper hand, or spear I should say. With coming climate changes and whatnot, species were forced to adapt or face destruction. Early hominids did not receive special treatment. Homo Sapiens developed spears which were very similar to the one pictured below. 

 

Notice the ratio of the size of the spear head to the length and width of the spear. This weapon was throw-able, and for the first time, gave the Humans range. Range that the Neanderthals did not have. This competition, coupled with the fact of the caloric consumption of their burly bodies, probably led to the Neanderthal's demise. If you still think that Neanderthals did not use tools, I would be glad to show you more pictures and evidence. But there has to be a point where the amount of evidence proves it to be a fact. 

 

Thank you,

 

ThePrroman

[hammer01 29]

In their time period, religion was a perfectly valid excuse to kill others. It was regarded as law of the land. And Evolution is no valid excuse to kill others. Just because a few people take a misconception and preach that as evil does not make it a valid reason to kill others.  

 

And how do we know these tools were not used by humans? I'll explain. It is not speculation at all. It is proven fact.

 

Aside from the fact that these tools were found at Neanderthal campsites that were dated to predate any human settlement in the region, and they did not match wounds in dead Neanderthals (to show that they were not used by humans), Homo sapiens sapiens had a completely different style of tools than Neanderthals. The images I showed in my previous post were in specific, Neanderthal Spear heads. I will show another image below, (being a replica of the spear) 

This spear was long, heavy, and was distinctly large pointed. This made this spear cumbersome and impossible to throw. This made the Neanderthal Spears mostly used as stabbing weapons. Do not try to refute the fact that Neanderthals used tools. There is no evidence that shows they did not use stone axes, flint knives, and spears. I digress. Humans on the other hand, had the upper hand, or spear I should say. With coming climate changes and whatnot, species were forced to adapt or face destruction. Early hominids did not receive special treatment. Homo Sapiens developed spears which were very similar to the one pictured below. 

 

Notice the ratio of the size of the spear head to the length and width of the spear. This weapon was throw-able, and for the first time, gave the Humans range. Range that the Neanderthals did not have. This competition, coupled with the fact of the caloric consumption of their burly bodies, probably led to the Neanderthal's demise. If you still think that Neanderthals did not use tools, I would be glad to show you more pictures and evidence. But there has to be a point where the amount of evidence proves it to be a fact. 

 

Thank you,

 

ThePrroman

What method were we using to determine that they predated human camp sites in the area? Just curious...

[Ventusyr 233]

Prrroman, you misunderstood me. I wasnt saying that people were perfect before Evolution, but rather that they didnt have a valid excuse for what they did. Now they do... thats all I was saying.

 

 

And how do we know that those tools were not used by humans? We are just speculating here...

They still don't have valid excuses. There isn't ever a valid excuse to do something terrible (In my opinion. Sort of. That much is up for debate; drastic measures to stop great evil and all that, like Hiroshima and Nagasaki).

The tools were found next to neanderthalis skeletons. So, in theory, the neandarthals could have been killed by humans who left the tools there right next to them, but since the findings were so common it was decided the tools were made by neandarthals. Keep in mind, though, that tools does not signify sentience; crows use tools to get their food, chimpanzees use tools to grind up food, orangutangs have been observed fishing using makeshift stick-spears.

I commend this. I was only pointing out the flaws in Hammer's argument. I understand that anyone can be a good person, regardless of their religion or philosophy. I was pointing out that Hammer said that people who, before the discovery of evolution, that were Christians were the 'morally right, perfect people'. He also claimed that Evolution 'allowed' people to do bad things. I was showing that Evolution had no difference in what people were doing, good or bad, and that he was being an extreme hypocrite. Christians are not inherently bad. It is only that people who seek justifications for their actions interpret Bible verses, (or Qu'ran, Torah, or any religious text for that matter) in a way that benefits them, and use that as justification.

Thanks for taking the time to respond,

ThePrroman.

Thank you for the commendation. I could go on a rant about such justifications, which are negated by other parts of religious texts (i.e., gay sex, which had been prohibited in Leviticus, which was the Book of Ceremonial Jewish Law, which Jesus SPECIFICALLY SAID you don't need anymore since he is the only requirement... Sorry :3), but I won't.

[hammer01 29]

Thank you for the commendation. I could go on a rant about such justifications, which are negated by other parts of religious texts (i.e., gay sex, which had been prohibited in Leviticus, which was the Book of Ceremonial Jewish Law, which Jesus SPECIFICALLY SAID you don't need anymore since he is the only requirement... Sorry :3), but I won't.

...in the new testament it clearly states that marriage is between one man and one woman... not one man and one man.... or woman and woman...

[Rhonir 16]

...in the new testament it clearly states that marriage is between one man and one woman... not one man and one man.... or woman and woman...

How can you fill in the blanks? What if it said, You must eat the fish from the sea! Does that mean you can't eat cows, or squid?

[Rhonir 16]

The tools were found next to neanderthalis skeletons. So, in theory, the neandarthals could have been killed by humans who left the tools there right next to them, but since the findings were so common it was decided the tools were made by neandarthals. Keep in mind, though, that tools does not signify sentience; crows use tools to get their food, chimpanzees use tools to grind up food, orangutangs have been observed fishing using makeshift stick-spears. (Sorry for messing up the quote. This was said by Незнакомец)

 

The tools used by Chimpanzees, crows, and Orangutans are rather simple tools. Chimps use rocks to grind, and occaisionally sticks to hunt. Same for Orangutans. Crows also only use simple tools. The Neanderthal spear heads are much more complex than those of the Chimp or Orangutan. They have consistent shape, and have been carved through a long process of developing tools. And who's to say that Chimpanzees aren't Sentient. They have large brains, have social structures, protect each other  and share 98.6% of our genome. 

 

But even if that isn't enough to prove the Neanderthal's Sentience, perhaps the paintings in Spain can. Please refer to the original pot for my explanation of the Paintings, and look below to see how the paintings were dated. 

 

 

What method were we using to determine that they predated human camp sites in the area? Just curious...

Radiocarbon Calibration is the most likely method used to date these artifacts. I can't explain it better than about.com, so I'll quote from them. 

 

"All living things exchange the gas Carbon 14 (C14) with the atmosphere around them—animals and plants exchange Carbon 14 with the atmosphere, fish and corals exchange carbon with dissolved C14 in the water. Throughout the life of the animal or plant, the amount of C14 is perfectly balanced with that of its surroundings. When an organism dies, that equilibrium is broken. The C14 in a dead organism slowly decays at a known rate: its "half life".

 

The half life of an isotope like C14 is the time it takes for half of it to decay away: in C14, every 5,730 years, half of it is gone. So, if you measure the amount of C14 in a dead organism, you can figure out how long ago it stopped exchanging carbon with its atmosphere. Given relatively pristine circumstances, a radiocarbon lab can measure the amount of radiocarbon accurately in a dead organism for up to 50,000 years ago; after that there's not enough C14 left to measure." 

 

If an organism is older than 50,000 years old, than they use Argon-40 or other materials. 

[Ventusyr 233]

...in the new testament it clearly states that marriage is between one man and one woman... not one man and one man.... or woman and woman...

That is because it was the norm in that time period, as it always has been. Does Paul not say, in the New Testament, "Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ" (Colossians 2:8)? Does he also not say, "“For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly be by the law. 22 But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin’s power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe” (Galatians 3:21-22)? The Law is no longer necessary, only faith in Jesus Christ. Faith, of course, entails trying to be like Christ, which is following the Ten Commandments. I would rather homosexual marriage than adultery, which is condoned by Jesus and Paul and the authors of the New Testament.

[Song Druid 1486]

Song Druid Arik Forum Moderator Comment

Right, please stop the double posts, many of you are doing it and this is your only warning before I start giving warning statuses.  Furthermore, stick to the topic at hand.  I understand arguing using religion gets slippery and you can glide into other discussions but keep focused on the topic, thank you.

[hammer01 29]

That is because it was the norm in that time period, as it always has been. Does Paul not say, in the New Testament, "Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ" (Colossians 2:8)? Does he also not say, "“For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly be by the law. 22 But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin’s power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe” (Galatians 3:21-22)? The Law is no longer necessary, only faith in Jesus Christ. Faith, of course, entails trying to be like Christ, which is following the Ten Commandments. I would rather homosexual marriage than adultery, which is condoned by Jesus and Paul and the authors of the New Testament.

I would say something to refute that, because I do know some scriptures that could go against this, but Song Druid said I coudnt, so i cant...

[Uniquename111 52]

...in the new testament it clearly states that marriage is between one man and one woman... not one man and one man.... or woman and woman...

 

Once again, you sound like these FINE gentlemen/women...

 

Also, in the Bible it says to not mix fabrics (meaning you can't wear clothing that's part cotton and part polyester). Let me ask you this, do YOU wear mixed fabrics? Unless you're Amish and wear only wool clothing, but you can't be since you have a computer, so who says that people can't adapt to modern times (ie. accept gay marriage as a legitament thing)? Also, it's not like making gay marriage illegal will stop gays, they'll still exist, but without a marriage certificate.

[Song Druid 1486]

Song Druid Arik Forum Moderator Comment

If I have to repeat myself I'll close the thread.

[hammer01 29]

Once again, you sound like these FINE gentlemen/women...

 

Also, in the Bible it says to not mix fabrics (meaning you can't wear clothing that's part cotton and part polyester). Let me ask you this, do YOU wear mixed fabrics? Unless you're Amish and wear only wool clothing, but you can't be since you have a computer, so who says that people can't adapt to modern times (ie. accept gay marriage as a legitament thing)? Also, it's not like making gay marriage illegal will stop gays, they'll still exist, but without a marriage certificate.

Again, I would respond, but I cant. From now on, I will ignore these posts...

[Rhonir 16]

Once again, you sound like these FINE gentlemen/women...

 

Also, in the Bible it says to not mix fabrics (meaning you can't wear clothing that's part cotton and part polyester). Let me ask you this, do YOU wear mixed fabrics? Unless you're Amish and wear only wool clothing, but you can't be since you have a computer, so who says that people can't adapt to modern times (ie. accept gay marriage as a legitament thing)? Also, it's not like making gay marriage illegal will stop gays, they'll still exist, but without a marriage certificate.

Unique, stay on topic. This is evolution vs. creationism. Not marriage equality. Listen to what Song Druid said.