Creation Or Evolution? Vote!

[Jistuma 1996]

Yeah, they are. We have grown fat in our wealth, and they often times have more faith than we do. Other than that, no, they aren't much different...

 

 

EDIT: Ok, so how about this: The simplest protein of life, the Ribonuclease. There are 124 amino in the protein. There are also 20 different types of amino acids. The first Amino acid needed to form this protein is abbreviated "Lys". The next one needed is "Glu" The chances of bothe of these connecting are 1 in 20 times 1 in 20, or 1 in 400. The next one needed is "Thr". The chances of these three being attached to each other in the right order are 1 in 20 times 1 in 20 times 1 in 20, or 1 in 8000. Continue this math until all of the 128 amino acids have been attatched in the correct order, the chance of this happening randomly is: 1 in 34028240000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 approximately. In my books that counts as impossible. And this is the simplest protein needed to for life to exist. There are some with over 10,000 amino acids... i could have put the chance for that down, but i think you get the point...

I'll respond tomorow, but those percentages are wrong, I can tell you that, simply because, the proteins still from and get destroyes, and those proteins form and get destroyed every single day, so, the odds of it happening are confirmed.

[hammer01 29]

Evolution isn't a hypothesis. It's a scientific theory. It has evidence backing it to a degree that it is accepted as the most likely explanation for what it is explaining. Anything can be a hypothesis. The only things that can be categorized as a theory are things that are closer to fact.

 

Gravitational theory is still a theory. We know gravity exists, and we know that essentially everything in gravitational theory is true. That is why it is a theory. Only reason it isn't a fact is that it hasn't been completely and wholly picked apart yet. Same with the theory of evolution. It is a theory because it is quite plainly evidenced to exist. The actual act of evolution itself is proven.

 

I'm not going to get involved with the topic of faith or religion because I don't much enjoy debating it any more, but please don't try and claim that evolution is a hypothesis when it is not. They are very different terms and mean very different things. The theory of evolution is not a hypothesis.

Yeah, well spontaneous generation was once a theory as well, and has since been proved wrong. And i still find much evidence against evolution and am thus still calling it a hypothesis...seeing as how something can only be a theory if there is no evidence against it...

 

I'll respond tomorow, but those percentages are wrong, I can tell you that, simply because, the proteins still from and get destroyes, and those proteins form and get destroyed every single day, so, the odds of it happening are confirmed.

you know what, my calculations were wrong. I did some more research and i came up with the chance: 1 in 10^29345. In other words, that number would fill over 80 pages of digits. This is not to get that one protein, but rather everything needed to create life, including all the proteins and the chances of these proteins of being colliding in just the right way to produce life. It is also taking into consideration the temperature and such. So i think this negates what your saying.... if i`m reading it correctly...

 

America is a fruit salat of diffrerent christian ways, Mormons, Baptists and so on, while most european countries stick with the traditional Catholicism or Evangelicalism, meaning many people in Europe have become atheist/agnostic.

 

Earth is 4,5 billion years old, remember, if this "Random chance" happend over 9000 times every femtosecond, it wouldn't take long for you got the result you want, please come with more information if you want your case fleshed out.

 

First off: I really dont know what you mean by saying most people in Europe have become atheist/agnostic because they follow  Catholicism or Evangelism... sooo.... yeah....

 

Oh yeah and Mormons aren't Christian`s...

 

 

As for the femtosecond stuff, wrong! I just did some calculations, and according to math, the following is the probability of life being generated in 4.5 billion years: 1 in

150135100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

And this is using my earlier 20^128 statement, when it is actually 10^29345. So yeah. Plus scientists say that 1 in 10^50 is technically impossible... so yeah... statistics don't lie...

[Hiebe 2493]

I hate this thread.

I will say one thing

I see two things happening,

1. We die and there is a God and a few of us are in heaven and the rest are in hell.

2. There is no God and we all rot in our graves.

[hammer01 29]

I hate this thread.

I will say one thing

I see two things happening,

1. We die and there is a God and a few of us are in heaven and the rest are in hell.

2. There is no God and we all rot in our graves.

your basically right...

[Jistuma 1996]

you know what, my calculations were wrong. I did some more research and i came up with the chance: 1 in 10^29345. In other words, that number would fill over 80 pages of digits. This is not to get that one protein, but rather everything needed to create life, including all the proteins and the chances of these proteins of being colliding in just the right way to produce life. It is also taking into consideration the temperature and such. So i think this negates what your saying.... if i`m reading it correctly...

 

As for the femtosecond stuff, wrong! I just did some calculations, and according to math, the following is the probability of life being generated in 4.5 billion years: 1 in

150135100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

And this is using my earlier 20^128 statement, when it is actually 10^29345. So yeah. Plus scientists say that 1 in 10^50 is technically impossible... so yeah... statistics don't lie...

This is one thing about probablility, do NEVER just give values out without explaining where you got them. I have no idea what those values mean, is it the probablility or the molucules randomly coming together in the middle of no where with no matter to even form them? I don't know what the bases for your conclusions are. I can say that war between USA and Korea has a 1 in a 10^100000000000 chance of happening. Is it wrong? No, I just didn't say that is the chance of it being fought in saturn.

Please tell me exacly how you came to those conclusions so I can tell you where you got it wrong.

And as I said, you just said the probability of those proteins coming together is 1 in whatever high number, but they form inside of us, every single second, so you are basicly wrong, since it happens everyday, unless you are saying sponteneous generation, which, as you stated, has been disproven.

[Campor 28]

Yeah, well spontaneous generation was once a theory as well, and has since been proved wrong. And i still find much evidence against evolution and am thus still calling it a hypothesis...seeing as how something can only be a theory if there is no evidence against it..

 

There is no evidence against evolution. Nothing in this thread has provided evidence. People have provided Bible passages which have absolutely no holding in scientific theories, and people have tried to discredit certain kinds of dating and been pointed to other sets of dating that are intended for different purposes. Besides which, a theory isn't only a theory if NO evidence exists against it. Anyone can claim they have evidence against something and not be proven wrong because their evidence is circumstantial at best. A theory is something that is most likely true and has an overwhelming amount of evidence backing it.

 

Evolution as a whole is essentially fact. It is proven to happen. The specific evolutionary theory is how exactly it occurs. The act is no longer debatable.

 

Also, to respond to your later statement- Low probability of life does not mean it can never happen. If anything has a probability, then it can occur at some point in time or another. The universe has existed for longer than we can really comprehend at this point. At some point, sentient life was going to form. It was inevitable.

[Wavejammers 328]

Yeah, well spontaneous generation was once a theory as well, and has since been proved wrong. And i still find much evidence against evolution and am thus still calling it a hypothesis...seeing as how something can only be a theory if there is no evidence against it...

 

you know what, my calculations were wrong. I did some more research and i came up with the chance: 1 in 10^29345. In other words, that number would fill over 80 pages of digits. This is not to get that one protein, but rather everything needed to create life, including all the proteins and the chances of these proteins of being colliding in just the right way to produce life. It is also taking into consideration the temperature and such. So i think this negates what your saying.... if i`m reading it correctly...

 

 

First off: I really dont know what you mean by saying most people in Europe have become atheist/agnostic because they follow  Catholicism or Evangelism... sooo.... yeah....

 

Oh yeah and Mormons aren't Christian`s...

 

 

As for the femtosecond stuff, wrong! I just did some calculations, and according to math, the following is the probability of life being generated in 4.5 billion years: 1 in

150135100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

And this is using my earlier 20^128 statement, when it is actually 10^29345. So yeah. Plus scientists say that 1 in 10^50 is technically impossible... so yeah... statistics don't lie...

If you don't get it, European people have realised that the bible is sh!ttalk, because it isn't always updated, to keep up on mordern, day standards, like in the US.

 

They worship Jesus, duhh, close enough.

 

And now when I think about it, if the random chance the Ribonuclease didn't appear, another simple life form would have replaced it, be we don't know, because we weren't there to see it, and because there isn't a replacement. And considering that we've found life on other planets other than earth, there really isn't such a small chance

[hammer01 29]

If you don't get it, European people have realised that the bible is sh!ttalk, because it isn't always updated, to keep up on mordern, day standards, like in the US.

 

They worship Jesus, duhh, close enough.

 

And now when I think about it, if the random chance the Ribonuclease didn't appear, another simple life form would have replaced it, be we don't know, because we weren't there to see it, and because there isn't a replacement. And considering that we've found life on other planets other than earth, there really isn't such a small chance

Of coarse the Bible isnt "updated" to modern standards. Truth is true no matter how long it stays around.

 

They think that they become gods when they die.... and that all black people are evil... if you read the Bible you would see that it is clearly not Christian...

 

Scientists all agree that at least 200 proteins must be present in to create the simplest life form. So it would take much longer to get all of those in one place, if they could be made at all...

 

Life on another planet... either you have been watching too many si-fi movies or i missed something here... probably the latter... but that still doesn't do anything to harm my theory...

 

This is one thing about probablility, do NEVER just give values out without explaining where you got them. I have no idea what those values mean, is it the probablility or the molucules randomly coming together in the middle of no where with no matter to even form them? I don't know what the bases for your conclusions are. I can say that war between USA and Korea has a 1 in a 10^100000000000 chance of happening. Is it wrong? No, I just didn't say that is the chance of it being fought in saturn.

Please tell me exacly how you came to those conclusions so I can tell you where you got it wrong.

And as I said, you just said the probability of those proteins coming together is 1 in whatever high number, but they form inside of us, every single second, so you are basicly wrong, since it happens everyday, unless you are saying sponteneous generation, which, as you stated, has been disproven.

You wish to check my math? well you saw how i got the chance of that one protein needed, right? 1 in 20 times 1 in 20 times 1 in 20 and so on 126 more times comes to 20^126 or 8.507059e+163. Now for the femtosecond stuff. One femtosecond is 10^-15 of a second. He said that there were 9000 collisions each femtosecond, so im using that number. Anyway, that would be 9000*10^15, which makes 9e+18. thats how many collisions are in one second. multiply that be 60, you get 5.4e+20. Multiply yet another 60 and you get 3.24e+22. This is now the number of collisions in one hour. multiply it be 24 and you get 7.776e+23. multiply by 365(im doing leap years and thus giving you guys some extra days on the end, which in the end result makes it more likely to happen, but hey, wouldnt want to go the other way around and have you guys say i cheated the numbers in my favor...) you get 2.83824e+26. then multiply by 4.5 billion years. This gives you 1.277208e+36. now to find the chance. 8.507059e+163/1.277208e+36 which gives you my previous answer.

 

Yes they form inside us every single second, but not by random chance! The cell are reproducing, creating these proteins, and thus by no means is it random. I am talking about the very beginning of life, not right in the middle. So my argument is still valid.

 

The second law of thermodynamics states that absolute entropy(chaos, basically) never decreases. But if evolution were to have really happened, then something chaotic, the molecules that formed that first life form, turned into something else less chaotic, the life form itself, which is impossible according to the second law of thermodynamics.

[Wavejammers 328]

Of coarse the Bible isnt "updated" to modern standards. Truth is true no matter how long it stays around.

 

They think that they become gods when they die.... and that all black people are evil... if you read the Bible you would see that it is clearly not Christian...

 

Scientists all agree that at least 200 proteins must be present in to create the simplest life form. So it would take much longer to get all of those in one place, if they could be made at all...

 

Life on another planet... either you have been watching too many si-fi movies or i missed something here... probably the latter... but that still doesn't do anything to harm my theory...

I wen't to America last summer, to visit my very religous relatives, when we wen't to church (Which we never do unless you have to prepare for confirmation) The priest walked around the church, used slangs, and sang sub-mordern songs, the church even had a kindergarden, while at home, the priest stand still on the same spot all the time, and quotes from the bible, sings 400 year old songs.

 

I know, but Isn't enternal happines and life god like status? And if mormonsim isn't a branch of christianity, what is it them? #Needhelp

 

Link?

 

Bacteria is life too ya know, there've been found dozens of comets with bacteria on them, and there is also bacteria on mars.

[hammer01 29]

I wen't to America last summer, to visit my very religous relatives, when we wen't to church (Which we never do unless you have to prepare for confirmation) The priest walked around the church, used slangs, and sang sub-mordern songs, the church even had a kindergarden, while at home, the priest stand still on the same spot all the time, and quotes from the bible, sings 400 year old songs.

Nuttin wrong wid dat.

No, in heaven, you just worship God... i think... until the new earth comes... i could be very wrong about this... And yes, Mormonism is a spin off of Christianity, but is clearly heresy and most Christians don't like to be associated with them...

 

Here is a link: http://www.rae.org/pdf/revev6.pdf

it has a bunch of stuff in it concerning why evolution cant happen... and the stuff i said... this is a link for you too jistuma...

 

I know bacteria is life... i just never heard that they actually found any...

 

[Jistuma 1996]

Scientists all agree that at least 200 proteins must be present in to create the simplest life form. So it would take much longer to get all of those in one place, if they could be made at all...

Please quote someone, beause DNA has only 20 types of proteins and it is not part of a simple life form...

Life on another planet... either you have been watching too many si-fi movies or i missed something here... probably the latter... but that still doesn't do anything to harm my theory...

Haven't heard of this myself, but I know what they are looking for, I can tell you later, but it has nothing to do with evolution.

You wish to check my math? well you saw how i got the chance of that one protein needed, right? 1 in 20 times 1 in 20 times 1 in 20 and so on 126 more times comes to 20^126 or 8.507059e+163.

Where did you get the 1 in 20? What does it mean? Does it mean that 1 in 20 probabities of the amino acids coming together? That's a pretty high probability. Then you multiply it by 1 in 20... what? You can't multiply probablilities like that... it makes no sense in a probabilistic way... Why did you multiply? Then you multiply again? What? Listen... probabilities don't work like that...

Respond to this, what is the probability for me to throw a coin and get tails 100 times? I'll answer for you, it's 100%. You are confusing the probabilities of having to come in a direct order, that's the hardest and most improbable way those things can happen.

In the coin flip example, this time only heads needed for 3 times. I say the percentage of getting heads 3 times is 100%, I think you would say it's 1 in 8. This is because you would probably multiply 1 in 2 by 1 in 2 by 1 in 2, making it 1 in 8. You see... that only happens if you can only throw the coin 3 times. But what if I throw it 5 times? The total number of diferent ways it can happen are 32. So, now the ways I can get 3 times heads are... 10 in 32. Those odds are a lot better now, almost 1 in 3.

So I think you will see in my example, that probabilities in chemistry are a bit different, they are more interested in is it possible/impossible, and if possible they just try to figure out what the average time for it to happen is. Because if I had a dice with 100 sides, and still wanted to have a number roll 100 times, the probability of that happening would still be 100%, it could just take a lot longer.

I won't talk to the fenomoren thing, which I didn't talk about.

Yes they form inside us every single second, but not by random chance! The cell are reproducing, creating these proteins, and thus by no means is it random. I am talking about the very beginning of life, not right in the middle. So my argument is still valid.

Well, it's not by random chance in nature as well, no things in chemestry form at random, they connect with each other in specific ways. With the right concentrations and the right temperature etc, a scientist can predict what will happen extremelly well. And yes, it has been made in laboratory, taking concentrations of locations of- I just noticed this...

This is abiogenises, not evolution, sorry... Yes, the probability stuff you just talked about, and that I actually know the answer to, have nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is after life exists and after the proteins can already replicate. So that argument you just gave is against abiogenisis, NOT evolution. Please tell me your next question.

The second law of thermodynamics states that absolute entropy(chaos, basically) never decreases. But if evolution were to have really happened, then something chaotic, the molecules that formed that first life form, turned into something else less chaotic, the life form itself, which is impossible according to the second law of thermodynamics.

Please learn the correct definition of the second law of termodynamics...

First, the correct definition of entropy (from wiki... it's just the easiest place to go...)

"A change in the entropy (dS) of a system is the infinitesimal transfer of heat (δQ) to a closed system driving a reversible process, divided by the equilibrium temperature (T) of the system."

In other words, entropy, is not chaos, it's actually balance, it's the balance that heat transfers in a way that the temperature will be constant. Problem is, if a system has balance, there is no energy transfer, and that is something bad if we want movement, electricity, etc. That is why entropy is considered something bad, when it's in fact very natural. It's in balance.

Damn, I just remembered I pretty much understand heat on a much larger scale than you probably... I can try to explain with... paint? Yes that would work. Grab a bucket, get a drop of colored water into it. You will notice that it first is very concentrated but then starts spreding to the rest of the water. That is basicly how heat works, it's spreads if nothing stops it (like the bucket would for the paint). But in the end you will notice, that the water doesn't seem to have the color of the drop you let in. The color not being able to be seen represents that you can not get it back together again.

Now, second part of the law, it states that it only works in a closed system, which the earth isn't, as it receives energy from the sun. So, the energy would be disipating, and then more energy would enter and concentrate again.

[hammer01 29]

 

[Jistuma 1996]

I already quoted someone... read my other post...

 

The probability of a the correct amino acid hitting the correct amino acid is 1 in 20 times 1 in 20. lets try to simplify this for you. i chose 1 in 20 because there are 20 amino acids. the chances of you picking the first amino acid in this protein is 1 in 20. Got it? Then 1 in 20 TIMES 1 in 20 because the chances of the next amino acid the hits this one is the correct one in the sequence is 1 in 20. Are you still following? 1 in 20 times 1 in 20 is 1 in 400. Then the chances of the next amino acid colliding with this string is 1 in 20. Thus 1 in 400 times 1 in 20. Whats so confusing about this?

... That is the probability of it happening at the first try...

So yes, lets say there are 20 types. And lets say they only can connect with the correct one, and that they must follow the order and the 5th one can't connect with the 6th one, while the 1st one connects with the second (which you also didn't think about). So... the first one tries, and has a 1/20. Fails. Then tries again, and again, and on the 20th tried, he made it. Well, now he's connected, and needs to connect to the 3rd one. So now it's 1/20 again, and he tries, it failed, and it tries again, and again, etc. and at the 20th attempt he made it. He does this 128 times, always failing 19 times on each new one. The result, it was 20 x 128 = 2560. So as you see, it's not 1/20 ^ 128, it's 1/(20x128) which is completly diferent.

What you said was that has to happen is this: "1st one, has a 1/20 chance to get it right, and does it! He does the 5 next ones as well in the first try. On the 6th, he fails... pitty, back to the begining and start again, yes you all already connected need to seperate and connect again, you can only stay conected if all of you connect at the exact order."

Doesn't make any sense, as I said.

*facepalm facepalm facepalm* your really underestimating me when it comes to my education. I learned this stuff IN 3RD GRADE! i know how it works! I know heat is really just energy! I know this stuff like the back of my hand! ...sorry about my ranting and raving... just tired of you beating me down telling me how stupid i am... Now back to the subject at hand.

 

Here is a simplified definition of Entropy: A measure of the disorder that exists in any system.

 

Now here is the second law of thermodynamics: The entropy in the universe must always either increase of stay the same. It can never decrease. Or, in equation form: Delta S_universe< 0. Delta S stands for Change in entropy.

 

If evolution were to occur the Entropy of the species would decrease, because it is more orderly, and, in a sense, more "perfect". This means that the entropy present in the previous species would have to go somewhere. But where does it go? It has to go somewhere in the universe, right?

 

I consider abiogenesis part of evolution. So yeah....

  

...I say so yeah too much don't i...?

I'm studying mechanical engineering... heat transfer is part of the hardest things I need to study. Entropy, is NOT chaos. That's the definition they give to highschoolers, it's like saying the sun is a ball of gas which is on fire, which is told to kindergardners and grade schoolers. Entropy is one of the hardest things to understand. Also, you ignored again that the earth is an open system, the definition you gave for entropy is for a close system (universe).

Entropy is the energy we can not regain, it's the energy lost through heat, it's the energy lost when you use petrol and burn it to move your car, and the air comes hot from the exhaust which you can never receive again. Entropy can also be said to exist in things like the sun. The sun is losing energy to the rest of the space, the entropy is rising.

Entropy does this:

7 - 1

6 - 2

5 - 3

4 - 4

The 'chaos' that is thought to people, is the fact that... to try and make them think of disorder, thought that isn't right either... Hell, I have no idea why they say it's chaos, I even learnt it like that once, I just know it's wrong now after I learnt the second law of termodynamics in collage.

[hammer01 29]

... That is the probability of it happening at the first try...

So yes, lets say there are 20 types. And lets say they only can connect with the correct one, and that they must follow the order and the 5th one can't connect with the 6th one, while the 1st one connects with the second (which you also didn't think about). So... the first one tries, and has a 1/20. Fails. Then tries again, and again, and on the 20th tried, he made it. Well, now he's connected, and needs to connect to the 3rd one. So now it's 1/20 again, and he tries, it failed, and it tries again, and again, etc. and at the 20th attempt he made it. He does this 128 times, always failing 19 times on each new one. The result, it was 20 x 128 = 2560. So as you see, it's not 1/20 ^ 128, it's 1/(20x128) which is completly diferent.

What you said was that has to happen is this: "1st one, has a 1/20 chance to get it right, and does it! He does the 5 next ones as well in the first try. On the 6th, he fails... pitty, back to the begining and start again, yes you all already connected need to seperate and connect again, you can only stay conected if all of you connect at the exact order."

Doesn't make any sense, as I said.I'm studying mechanical engineering... heat transfer is part of the hardest things I need to study. Entropy, is NOT chaos. That's the definition they give to highschoolers, it's like saying the sun is a ball of gas which is on fire, which is told to kindergardners and grade schoolers. Entropy is one of the hardest things to understand. Also, you ignored again that the earth is an open system, the definition you gave for entropy is for a close system (universe).

Entropy is the energy we can not regain, it's the energy lost through heat, it's the energy lost when you use petrol and burn it to move your car, and the air comes hot from the exhaust which you can never receive again. Entropy can also be said to exist in things like the sun. The sun is losing energy to the rest of the space, the entropy is rising.

Entropy does this:

7 - 1

6 - 2

5 - 3

4 - 4

The 'chaos' that is thought to people, is the fact that... to try and make them think of disorder, thought that isn't right either... Hell, I have no idea why they say it's chaos, I even learnt it like that once, I just know it's wrong now after I learnt the second law of termodynamics in collage.

Yes! That`s exactly how it is! In your example the 6th one would be the wrong amino acid, right? Well it would still attach to the other amino acids, thus making the whole string useless! Why does this not make sense to you?

 

 

So then your saying that the definition of the second law of thermodynamics and entropy given in high school is wrong?

[Jistuma 1996]

Yes! That`s exactly how it is! In your example the 6th one would be the wrong amino acid, right? Well it would still attach to the other amino acids, thus making the whole string useless! Why does this not make sense to you?

 

 

So then your saying that the definition of the second law of thermodynamics and entropy given in high school is wrong?

I can research this a bit better to explain to you how preciselly the DNA formed from the begining, but I I can tell you the things before the aminoaxids were not as complex, and were actually very more chemically simple... but that is not evolution, that's abiogenisis.

Also ye... at least in my perpective... the definition of order and disorder is very hard different for me I guess, because the way I imagine energy in the universe is very disorganized, I mean, it's concentrated in galaxies, then has a lot of space in between with almost no energy, then another galaxie appears, and so on. For me order would be for everything to have the same amount of energy and be constant.

How would you caracterize order in energy aspects?